Replay from May: The Cuddyer chronicles
Posted on September 23rd, 2009 – 9:27 AMBy Howard
Perhaps no more puzzling venom was directed at a Twins player earlier this year than some of the outrage directed toward Michael B. Cuddyer. Maybe it was because he does magic tricks or maybe it’s because he’s better lookin’ than most folks who sit at their computers and comment on blogs. Or maybe it was a conspiracy between the number munchers to show how deeply they could drill into new-wave statistics to find damning evidence and the gut-feeling crowd who simply wanted to go young (or Young) as in a regular outfield of Delmon, Carlos and Denard. Or maybe it was a bitter Lew Ford posting under an assortment of names and personalities, which wouldn’t surprise me as much as if, say, Jason Tyner tried to do something like that.
Whatever the case — and I bear no ongoing malice toward contrarian opinions — I felt the need back in May to devote two consecutive posts to a defense of Cuddyer.
On May 21, I wrote, in part:
Going back through some comments of recent days, you might think that Michael Cuddyer is the main reason the Twins have lost six in a row, the starters can’t locate their pitches, the bullpen has been a disaster in key situations and the little things kept getting done wrong. That’s the same Cuddyer who is batting .310/.430/.535 over his last 20 games and has the highest OPS on the team except for three guys named Mauer, Morneau and Kubel.
He has seemed to run afoul of the baseball socialists who seem to think that others should be getting a chance based on unmined potential or some of the numbers that can be found if you drill down deep enough into the statosphere. Some people seem to be making the leap that he should be benched because he’s overpaid — at least that’s the argument I’ve been extracting from a quick review of their words. I like numbers. I like the ones that I cite and I’m intrigued by the numbers that some of you bring up. But here’s a simple contention: If more Twins were producing like Cuddyer, the Twins could make even Terry Felton a winning pitcher.
After an interesting conversation-booster from commenter Jason — “The $8.5 million Cuddyer is making this year comes in part from your season ticket money to sit in 220, Howard. From that standpoint, I would think you would be curious … at the questioning of how that investment is paying off.” – I offered up the following on the issue of the return on my investment:
Cuddyer? His OPS+ right now is 124, the same as in his best season of 2006 … and I’ll take that from him. It’s a big improvement over last season’s injury-hampered 92. and better than his career figure of 107. For the season, I’d be very happy if he performed in the 110-120 range. (It’s early enough in the season that yesterday’s performance moved his OPS+ from 112 to 124, kind of like a huge day in the market.) I’m not going to put him on my All-Star ballot right now, but I’ll make the argument that Cuddyer’s a solid player who has deserved his at-bats. That he’s making $6.75 million this season (or $7.67 million if you want to throw in one-third of his signing bonus) doesn’t bother me.
Here are links to the full posts:
May 21: Another loss? All Cuddyer’s fault, I suppose.
May 22: Player value from a fan’s perspective.
The best part wasn’t that I was so incredibly right about Cuddyer — the animosity has shrunk to a fringe effort that calls itself, I believe, the Justin Huber Liberation and Libation Society — but that it provoked about 450 comments over two days that were mostly evidence of value for this kind of discussion on the internet. That doesn’t include the guy who offered up, during the May 21 day game: “Howard, your boyfriend flied out on the 2nd pitch with runners on 1st and 3rd.”
That was before Cuddyer went 4-for-6 with a home run and a double that afternoon in Chicago and hit for the cycle the next night against Milwaukee.
Some of your concession speeches were downright flattering.
More satisfying, however, is that Cuddyer is having a year even better than I was willing to give him credit for six weeks into the season — and has stepped up to fill the Morneau void, both in the batting order and on defense, when it was vital to do so.
And if you buy the argument that Cuddyer’s performance has been key to keeping the Twins in the title chase, you can also give him some credit for enhancing Joe Mauer’s chances to win the American League MVP award. If the Twins were doing a White Sox fade right now, it would lend strength to the arguments that Mauer has been most outstanding without being most valuable.
At this point, however, in baseball’s only serious title chase (regardless of the division’s weakness), Mauer’s singular performance makes him such an obvious choice that the only reason for debate is to fill time in the 24/7 sports universe. But the Mauer-for-MVP question will have to wait for another day.
Today, it’s all about Cuddyer (and me).
220 Responses to "Replay from May: The Cuddyer chronicles"
I admit I was one of the Cuddyer bashers earlier in the year and I am happy to eat my words now. But the fact it, earlier in the year he really appeared to be swinging after bad pitches with runners on base. Maybe the numbers show otherwise. Nonetheless, I am glad Cuddy is on the team now, he is almost single handedly carrying the team.
I admit, I was down on Cuddyer early this year. (we won’t mention Cuddyer’s batting average with RISP)
But, because I’m manic in a lot of ways, I also picked Cuddyer and Blackburn to click this year.
Which probably typifies the love/hate relationship most fans have with Michael Cuddyer.
Well played. I am dealing with the Cuddyer issue on the blog as well. People are suggesting that the Twins buy out Cuddyer’s 2011 option for $1 million because he’s set to make $10.5 million if they pick up the option. Thing is, guys with OPS+ numbers in the 125 range typically make $10 million a year. So they would rather buy him out and go shopping for a comparable player at the same price than keep him. But he’s much more valuable to the Twins than other organizations because a) He’s the only right handed bat in the upper levels with much ability and b) He’s a great teammate and a great guy in the community.
Blake, If you won’t mention his batting average with runners in scoring position, I won’t mention his on-base percentage with runners in scoring position. I’ll only say that it is higher than his overall OBP.
Kevin: He still does, but that’s the tradeoff with Cuddyer. It feels less maddening, though, in the bigger picture.
cmath: Could you post a link when you get a chance?
Cuddy is a TWIN through and through, great clubhouse guy, very good player, not a great player but he should be a lifer in a twin uniform. Question to ponder…How many outfields in the MLB right now would he start in? My calculations say anywhere between 15 and 20….not bad….
Win Twins!
Howard,
I’m probably like a lot of fans in that we were irritated at the lack of timely hitting by Michael Cuddyer.
However, in retrospect, there’s timely hitting and there’s timely hitting.
If you get caught up in lack of timely hits on a game by game basis, it’s frustrating.
But, and this has been the key lately, Cuddyer has been getting those timely hits at the point in the season where the games really matter.
Forest for the trees kind of thing.
Having always been a Cuddyer fan these past 10 days have been nice to see.
As to contract–why worry about 2011 option now?? 10 million in todays stupid salary scale is cheap anyway.
DAM
Count me in the “down on Cuddyer” bandwagon earlier in the year. Howard, I think some of us are harder on him because he seems to spend as much time thinking up cute post game comments-my personal favorite was “the ground can’t cause a fumble” after he blew a rundown-than figuring how to hit a curveball. But you have to give credit where it’s due, now.
my reasoning for trading Magic Man has been based on Twins payroll policy -
1)trading Cuddyer and freeing up his salary would enable Mauer to be kept AND upgrade middle infield
2)the outfield carousel doesn’t work and it either GOGO or Young or both sit and rot on the bench
my conclusions now??
Cuddyer’s value has far outweighed his salary AND it’s obvious Young is not liked by Gardy and Friends and needs to be jettisoned
I will hope against past Front Office performance and Billy will surprise me and upgrade middle infield with more then the Juan Castro’s of the world
Howard, I have been, and was, critic number 1 on Cruddy.
I have to say he has had a very nice season and earned his paycheck. His fielding in RF is significantly worse (he still only has 2 assists) and his throws are errant, but he has come up with some key hits and has had a solid year.
You have been right, I have been wrong.
I still will jump all over him next year if he gets hurt, bats .240 with 8 bombs again.
Still a fun post and you deserve to gloat
I’ve already done the “I was wrong about Cuddy” posts, but since you bring it up, I’ll say it again.
I was wrong about cuddy.
He’s been very good this year (on O, let’s just not talk about his D right now).
Also, it’s not like there is a better choice any where in the system, at all. He may or may not be overpaid (relative to the % of the their budget, if not compared to other corner OFers with his number), but that’s not really the point here.
The point is that he’s been very good on offense this year. He’s one of the 5 hitters that have carried the stiffs on this roster. He’s the only legit right handed player they have (how is that even possible, btw?).
We can talk about his contract’s effect on their (in?)ability to sign some free agents after the season is over….
btw, you guys need to fire Reusse so he doesn’t have a chance at having a Cy Young vote ever again.
Saying he won’t vote for Greinke unless he gets more wins shows how some people just don’t get it, at all.
” AND it’s obvious Young is not liked by Gardy and Friends and needs to be jettisoned”
Oh, so that’s why young always starts over gomez!
Howard, when you’re right, you’re right. Way to go Cuddy! Keep on hitting and proving to everyone that you are worth the investment. Just don’t break anyone’s hand with those intense high fives after you get another clutch hit!
I’m glad I don’t have to offer an apology or retraction. Cuddy has been my favorite Twin since he was in the minors. I was so relieved when he wasn’t traded at the 2001 trade deadline, when it was rumored that he was going to the Reds for Dimitri Young. Remember when Dimitri was actually skinny enough to be an outfielder?!?!
I have caught alot of crap for my loyalty to Cuddy over the years, but I’ve sure been vindicated this year! 
I was wrong about Cuddy.
He’s doing what veteran players are supposed to do and leading the team right now.
Speaking of veteran players leading the team, I like what I’m seeing from OC recently.
AL Comeback player of the year: Michael Cuddyer.
AL Cy Young award: Greinke from KC.
AL MVP: Joe Mauer, Twins.
As someone stated on one of the blogs yesterday…”Let MLB piss of all of the Jankee and Blow Sox fans…”
How beautiful that would be.
Mea culpa. I am on the same page as Blake with my earlier frustration with Cuddy with RISP and he still takes some silly looking swings at pitches outside the zone sometimes. However, I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Thank goodness we have him right now. He seems to be trying to carry the team into the postseason.
My reason for disliking Cuddyer earlier in the year is the same as my reason for disliking Punto earlier in the year and the same as my reason for disliking Morneau in August — and it all comes down to the same thing — RON GARDENHIRE.
In retrospect, I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t really dislike any of the players (or even the way they were playing). I just can’t stand the way that Gardenhire handles the players. And, as happy as I am with the way that the Twins are playing now, I can’t help but think that they would be in the lead (or closer to the lead) if Gardenhire had sat Morneau earlier.
So, I’ll apologize for Cuddyer-bashing, Punto-bashing (although I don’t think I did much of that) and Morneau-bashing and any other player-bashing I may have done. I will not apologize for Gardenhire-bashing even if the Twins win the World Series. Over the course of this year, I have come to despise the way he manages this team.
By the way, Howard, don’t pat yourself on the back too hard now.
I’d like to remind everyone that when LEN3 was taking picks-to-click I was the only one who picked Matt Guerrier.
Howard,
There is no doubt I was among those who questioned your investment in Michael Cuddyer six weeks into this season.
May 18 was the last day of that dreadful four-gamer at Yankee Stadium. Micheal Cuddyer hit a two-run homer that night, but it was the lone bright spot in a 2-for-16 series for Cuddyer, one of the many frustrating parts of that 4-game meltdown by a seemingly inferior Minnesota Twins club. By series’ end, Cuddyer was batting .252 with 4 HR and 20 RBI. At that rate, he was on pace for 24 HR and 80 RBI on the season.
The feeling at the time among those like me was 24 HR and 80 RBI was not what we had in mind from a $24 million player. Jacque Jones had similar numbers for the Twins in 2004 and 2005 and we sent him packing after that. Twins fans didn’t want another Jacque Jones in the outfield–we wanted a star. A $24 million man, if you will. Cuddy was riddled with injuries in the first year of his big contract, ending with just 3 HR and 36 RBI in 249 at-bats.
Point being, six weeks into this season there was reason for concern. Congrats to you, Howard, for not being concerned. We all should be blessed with such foresight. It also now goes without saying here four months later the Twins wouldn’t be in a position to capture the Division without Michael Cuddyer. He’s been awesome since that sluggish start. Some fans still beg for “clutch hits” and wince at a flailing effort at a pitch low and away, but hey, Kirby Puckett’s bat discipline wasn’t exactly the best in baseball either.
Howard now has 3 games left in Section 220 and he can proudly say his investment in Cuddyer definitely has paid dividends. Tracking that investment, through good times and bad, ought to be why we have 220.
I saw Cuddyer take batting practice in spring training this year in the batting cage off the pitching machine. I was amazed at how hard and consistantly he ripped the ball. Standing right behind him watching was very impressive.
I think Reusse had said he would most likely vote for Verlander for Cy if he had a good game against the TWins, and he did not have a bad game, but the Tigers lost that game. That should give Greinke a leg up on Reusses vote
As far as why people didnt like Cuddy before: It wasnt his “good looks” as Howard suggests. I am not gay (not that there is anything wrong with that) but I think Mauer is a lot better looking than Cuddy and Mauer is untouchable as far as criticism on these boards.
I’ve always been a Cuddy fan. I’d take him in the OF over Gogo and Young any day even if Gomez is better defensively. I’ve never been a big fan of either Gomez or Young but I’m hoping they can develop into solid players. Cuddy’s production this year obviously increases his value but no way should they trade him. He’s a veteran on this young team that can help off the field. Didn’t we hear from the Pohlads that the payroll would increase with a new stadium? I think our payroll has gone down since those words were uttered a few years ago (no Santana and Hunter). They need to keep their better players not named Morneau and Mauer for once.
Benny W - agree about OC. He has elevated his play of late and it is certainly nice to see the OC we hoped we were getting when we signed him.
Kevin,
Ms. Baseball has added the “looks” dimension to my baseball portfolio, which once explained her devotion to a first baseman named Mientkiewicz. But she can also take apart a performance like a tobacco-chewin’ scout, so it’s really the best of all worlds. (Much like the confluence of stats and observations.)
“I have to say he has had a very nice season and earned his paycheck. His fielding in RF is significantly worse (he still only has 2 assists) and his throws are errant, but he has come up with some key hits and has had a solid year.”
According to baseball-reference.com, Cuddyer has 5 assists in RF this year. And judging an outfielder on how many assists he has is probably not the best measure of his defensive abilities. For example, Ichiro only has 5 assists on the year as well. Is he a poor defensive outfielder?
Cuddyer got known for his arm back in 2007. I would assume that his lower assists numbers are due to fewer runners testing it. If you want to criticize his fielding, you would probably do better to point to his pretty bad UZR/150 rating, or maybe his RF/9.
Howard: Cuddy has carried this team and has justified his 8 million for sure. Great game last night by OC as well. Big home run and some fine defensive plays He is a leader and it was intersting to hear last night the Twins bench was dead before the game until OC got everyone fired up. On a side note Howard, just wondering, where will you be sitting next year at Target Field?
I’m torn on a day by day or hour by hour basis as to if Cabrera should come back next year. Last night was a night that made me say yes, he should come back.
OC wants to come back. Gardenhire wants him back. BS, however, has said Harris or Punto can play SS next year. Seeing how the FO does not think Valencia is ready to anchor 3rd and 2nd is also unknown, it would be nice to at least have SS solved for next year. Come on BS, stop BSing.
For the most part, the bloggers who make the most negative noise are those who are picking apart individual situations to justify their opinions. They do not look at the overall big picture of long seasons and production over long periods of time. Thank goodness the Professional People in charge look at the big picture, not a small sampling of a game or two or three. They know a hell of lot more than I do, and I admit it. GO TWINS!!!
OC has been mediocre to bad. One or two nice events do not erase the whole season and how he has played on O and D. Just look at the trends over the last few years, not the last few games…..
He was touted for his great influence on Casilla and Gomez - well, they both got maybe a tiny boost from him when he first came, but where is that boost the last few weeks? It just isn’t there.
As for what Gardy wants, giving him OC is just a bad idea. It’s 162 more games of having a guy with a bad OBP in front of Mauer.
And as long as we’re replaying things, I have been internally debating a statement I made on this blog very early on this year: The Twins will not go to the playoffs with Michael Cuddyer and Nick Punto in the everyday lineup.
As Howard so graciously outlined in today’s post, the questioning of Michael Cuddyer looks laughable in hindsight. Not only is it not Cuddyer’s fault, now “It’s Cuddyer, Stupid,” to put spin on a phrase from the Clinton-era.
Cuddyer and Punto represent case studies in what can happen when Gardy sticks with loyalty. Sometimes it pays off (Cuddyer), sometimes it doesn’t (Punto).
Yep, here comes the flood of posts spinning the do’s and dont’s of Punto…only a matter of time, I take full credit.
Set aside for the moment that the baseball has been managing to find the thick part of Punto’s bat here in September, because I grant that he’s been adequate lately. But what has six months of Punto done for the Twins other than allow Gardy to sleep well at night? Alexi Casilla is lost. Brendan Harris is spent. Matt Tolbert thinks he can be the next Nick Punto. What in the world is going on here? Can we expect two big infield free agents in 2010, or will it be the Punto-Tolbert-Harris-Casilla carousel?
I’m telling you, Howard–It’s all Punto’s fault!
I have a feeling this post is going to be met with more venom than support, and that’s okay (I’m never shy of being opposed), but I bring this up simply to point out that the same line of thinking that kept Cuddyer in the lineup throughout it all here in 2009–to the Twins’ benefit–is working with Punto to our detriment. Thus, Howard may have caught a big fish with his posts back in May, but was it due to his lure or his luck? Thoughts?
Hard to say how much rah rah counts but I have noticed a lack of spirit in this team til Cabrera came on board. It’s ok to show a little joy when you succeed. The game part is why I watch the game. Not the big business always act professional side.
07, 08 and early 09 I could have made a nice income betting on pitch and result sequences in Cuddyer’s at bats. It got so bad early this year that pitchers no longer even needed to throw a single strike in a game to get him out. The best sign I saw from him was when he took about 8 walks in a 4 game set and said he should have walked twice more. It was that point that he turned it around and pitchers actually had to start throwing strikes again. I never questioned his ability to hit strikes. In the same vein, I never questioned Punto’s talent just his uppercut from the ass swing. He is now protecting the plate taking the kind of swing he should have been all year long so I feel vindicated in my analysis also. If he starts next year I really would like to see a fine and suspension for any home run that he hits. Maybe that would keep him doing what he does best and keep him from trying to do what he can’t do at all.
“it would be nice to at least have SS solved for next year.”
OCab is the same as Punto, Harris, and all the rest of the guys the Twins already have. Except he’s older. I’d rather head into next year with an open competition between Punto, Harris, and whomever else than signing Cabrera to a deal and then watching him produce just like the others.
Pete D,
How “open” could a competition really be between Punto and Harris for next year, given:
A. Gardy refuses (for no real reason) to play Harris at second base.
B. Harris would have to hit 90 points higher than Punto to win the job
and
C. Even if Harris “wins” the job, one bad weekend and it will be back to Punto.
If it’s between Harris and Punto, just give it to Punto so we have something to gripe about in 2010
Also, I’m still waiting to hear thoughts on the two quietest words in the Twins clubhouse: Alexi Casilla.
Harris will be gone next year. Gardy made it clear that he doesn’t like Harris’s defense at any position - hence playing Tolbert at 3rd now and using Harris as a platoon DH. It wouldn’t surprise me if Casilla is gone too.
In the red corner we have Jason the Anti-Punto representative.
In the blue corner we have Pete D the Pro-Punto representative.
Let’s get ready to defend our opinions!!!
“Alexi Casilla is lost. Brendan Harris is spent. Matt Tolbert thinks he can be the next Nick Punto”
Casilla is a never was. He had a nice little run mid year last year. He’s been a bad hitter before, and a bad hitter since.
Harris is a never was. There is a reason he has bounced around both leagues. It’s because he is average at best both in the field and at the plate. That said, he is the best internal option to be the starting 3B next year.
Tolbert had a rough time to start the year this year. But he still projects as a decent utility player in the majors, the same role Punto should probably have. But your team will not be doomed if you have to have one of these guys in the line up every day hitting 9th.
Priority #1 (from an offensive standpoint) this off season is finding an infielder capable of hitting 2nd in the line up. Everything else will fall into place after that.
If I had to put money on one player who will be traded in the off season, it would be Alexi Casilla. I think he still very well could turn out to be a very good ballplayer. I don’t think that will happen in Minnesota. It’s best for both sides to part ways.
fcmlefty,
Interesting takes. Are we really ready to say Casilla is a never was? National commentators were calling him our best middle infielder earlier this year. Are we really prepared to let him shine with another team? I personally think that’s kind of dangerous.
I hear you on Harris. He has no future with the Twins–there were big hints of this earlier this year, but now it’s painfully obvious. We’re lucky Gardy’s decision not to DH Morales last night didn’t end up being a talking point had we lost by 1-run or something.
I also agree we need not 1, but 2 new infielders for 2010. If we bring back Cabrera, great, then we need a third baseman. The Punto-Tolbert combo is not a solution. I think we’re all tired of carrying multiple utility players and using one as an everyday starter.
I think Casilla should be in line to start at 2B next year but it’s hard to do that with a straight face when he can’t even get a start here in September.
Jason -
I’m glad you asked.
Harris CANNOT PLAY SECOND BASE. He just can’t. He’s terrible defensively there. Can’t turn a double play, has bad footwork, etc.
As for hitting 90 points higher than Punto, I’d have to see it to believe it. Right now, Harris has a 50 point lead in OPS, yet it is all slugging. And while slugging is important for a hitter, statistics suggest that getting on base is the best thing a hitter can do - which Punto does better than Harris.
That doesn’t even take into account that since Punto returned from the DL on June 12th he’s hitting .255/.353/.330 in 239 PA, which is better than what Harris has done on the season.
Obviously a season isn’t from June 12th on. However, did Harris have a hot first 2 months while Punto was cold? Or perhaps his injury bothered him more than we know?
Punto seems to jump up and down with his offensive production. Harris has been trending downward the past 3 seasons. I’m not sure that Harris is a better hitter than Punto, and I’m sure he isn’t a better defender.
I have an idea: package Harris and Delmon together in a package and offer them to Tampa in exchange for Jason Bartlett and that one pitcher they have, starts with a G,,, Gooza or something, I think he has some potential
Howard:
Here’s the link: http://www.twinkietown.com/2009/9/22/1047169/minnesota-twins-2010-payroll-roster#comments
Lots of talk about what to do in the offseason with the roster and payroll. But a major thread is on Cuddyer.
The anger at Cuddyer always puzzled me as well. The Twins have invested a lot of time in Cuddyer. He has a great arm in right field and a solid glove. It doesn’t matter that he can’t cover a ton of ground because he has either Span or Gomez in Center. He is the only legitimate power threat on the right side of the plate. Plus, as we see now, he is versatile and can play first, second, short or wherever. When Cuddyer was in somewhat of a slump, people called for a trade. When Cuddyer was on fire, people called for a trade. Why trade a guy we have put so much time into?
Of course, I disagree with Howard’s comment “maybe it’s because he’s better lookin’ than most folks who sit at their computers and comment on blogs”…
lol Fair Weather.
I’m still baffled why we’ve turned our back on Casilla. He hit .263 in August, peaking at .209. He’s now hitting .196 overall and hasn’t started since Sep. 11.
Punto’s not on fire, folks. I know some of you that have been Dick-Bremered-to-death think he is, but I really believe Casilla is the better long term answer and aren’t we doing more harm than good by sitting him now? Plus, remember the great defense he provided in August? I seem to remember some pretty stellar plays.
Pete D I won’t argue too strongly on your Harris v. Punto points (except I still have seen zero evidence that Harris can’t play second), other than to say Punto is not the answer. Harris has to go, I think we all realize that. Hopefully we can package Fair Weather’s deal.
“Are we really ready to say Casilla is a never was? National commentators were calling him our best middle infielder earlier this year”
1) I have no time for most of the “national” commentators, as they more or less do zero analysis of teams outside of the AL East.
2) Look who he was being compared to: A struggling Punto and a struggling Tolbert, and a sub par Harris. Seems to me its kind of like winning a junior varsity tournament…
Think of this: If (or hopefully when) Mauer gets resigned, I think it will cost $20 M per. Throw in Morny who will make over $10 M and Nathan at $10 M per. That’s about $45 M for three players. Punto and Cuddy will cost another $15 M, and unfortunately there is no way to get rid of Punto’s contract. That’s $60 M for 5 players. Kubel gets a nice raise and I believe quite a few players are arbitration eligible. I expect the Twin’s payroll to increase to the 90-100 million range. The remaining 20 players will take up that 40 M pretty quickly. If that’s the case, I’m not sure we can upgrade any part of the team. IMO we desperately need a MI. I think there’s no debate about that. I also think we need at least 1 top of the line SP. We won’t have the money for it.
I’m glad Cuddy’s doing well (pretty interestingly he’s been about average as a RF production wise but has been lights out as a 1bmen) And I’m not against having him on the team next year at all. No one is untouchable next year in my book except Mauer. So if anybody else has better ways to improve this team, I’m all ears. I happen to believe in Gomez’s and DY’s talent and potential. I blame Gardy, in part, for their regression. Gomez should have played the entire year in AAA. Morales should have been on the team and when DY was struggling or needed time off Kubel could have played in the OF and we could have patched together the DH situation (including giving Morneau more days off). I digress. I simply believe that the return on Cuddy could fill holes, and the money saved could help sign one a needed piece.
The previous post is an arguement to trade Cuddy. I also forgot to mention that big hole at 3rd.
Congrats Howard… I see frustration over players, you know the names. But management. or lack of decent FO/management has always been the issue for the angst in fans… No apologies are necessary when they make such messes of a team we love!!
Well, I was one who thought the Cuddyer contract was a mistake. I wasn’t piling on this past May, but I did in the offseason. That was based on his regression in ‘07 and his downright awful ‘08 (even if it was injury-marred, his lone shining year was ‘06). Then he went out and had a pretty darn good year this year. Without his contribution this year, the Twins would be nowhere near the Tiggers. I tip my hat to Cuddyer, and to Howard. Good call.
:Casilla is the better long term answer ”
I’d argue the Twins don’t have a long term answer at any infield position. That needs to be solved.
But, that is independent of the short term solution for 2010. I don’t think Casilla is the answer for that either.
So, if Casilla isn’t the long term solution, and isn’t the short term solution, exactly what is his value again?
JP, lets not forget: I think part of getting Mauer to stay her is to show a committment to get some solid players who will cost more money. If we do not upgrade the team, I dont think Mauer will stay for even 20 MM. That kind of home town discount only works if he is convinced the team will go out and try to be competitive on more than just the central division level
Upgrading the team can come in all types of shapes. Getting a good return on Cuddy, signing a front end pitcher. It doesn’t just have to be about spending money and or overpaying for players.
I’m surprised at fcm’s haste in declaring Casilla DOA. In his only full season at the majors (2008), he hit .281 with 7 HR and 50 RBI. Seems like kind of a quick hook for someone who only has 800 major league at-bats.
One thing to think about if you’re a proponent of trading Cuddyer in the offseason. The guy can play 5 positions if he has to. He may nhot be a long term solution in the infiled, but that sort of versatility can be pretty handy. Like right now.
Let’s hear it all you LNP supporters…and how he has finally come around. Good one!
Couple thoughts
1) 0-4 and 4 normal LNP at-bats of uselessness last night.
2) LNP vs. any New York Yankees pitcher in post season. Laughable. How about in a key situation in late innings at NYY. Humorous
Can we get a real couple of middle infielders on this team next year so we can change the team nickname back to Twins from Mediocrity.
I kind of like JP’s idea about trading Cuddy, but I get the feeling it will never happen. I think the Twins consider him part of their identity and do not want to part with that.
Boneyard
Isn’t that what we’re overpaying Punto for?? Gold glover at every position?
AND when was the last time he played something other than OF or 1b???
I’m down on Punto as a player and really think his contract was a bad mistake, but do all roads really lead back to Punto? It doesn’t matter where the conversation starts, it ends up with Punto. I’m starting to drift toward your opinion on the subject, Dr. Don!
Well said Howard. I’m just happy that Cuddy is hot at this most critical time of the season.
2009 AL MVP = Joe Mauer
September AL MVP = Cuddyer
He played second base this year and turned a double play.
Jason
As long he’s one of Gardy’s boys and Gardy is coaching this team, it will NEVER happen. We won’t sell high on Cuddy but we will jettison DY for 20 cents on the dollar.
Just the opposite of the Twins way. Trade Dougie M for Morny, Trade AJ for Mauer, Even trading Castillo for Casilla.
Yeah, I could be guilty of giving him a quick hook, but his downward spiral over the last 14 months is just alarming. Baseball history is littered with flame outs that had the same career path.
I wish I could consider him the long term solution. In theory, he’s exactly what the Twins need: a switch hitting infielder that can hit 2nd.
I’ll gladly eat my words a year from now if need be. I love being wrong if it is a benefit to the Twins!
If you want to focus on the forest vs. the trees re: OC, then look at his career - which was quite good offensively and defensively before he came to the Twins. And he has been quite good lately. I would argue that the aberration or blip has been his first month or so with the Twins.
Now, compare Punto - historically good defensively but declining over this season and never very good offensively. I would say his play the last few weeks, with the exception of the three 0-fer games he has had in the past week, is an aberration (with his 0-fer nights being more indicative of his historical performance). So, you would want to shed OC knowing that by having Punto onboard Gardy would be inclined to annoint him starting SS next season if BS again does nothing with that position in the offseason?
Not saying OC is the long-term answer, but I think he’s a decent answer for one more year and then BS still needs to go out and get, at least, a quality guy for 2nd or 3rd next yr.
JP, I think we’re overpaying Punto for something he does off the field which only Gardy can appreciate. That being said, I still think the rotation has been the club’s biggest shortcoming this year. The Slowey injury and the Liriano disappointment have done far more to hurt the club’s playoff chances than the bad MI.
“Punto’s not on fire, folks. ”
Punto is hitting .314/.407/.392 in the month of September. That looks to me like he’s on fire.
“but I really believe Casilla is the better long term answer and aren’t we doing more harm than good by sitting him now? ”
Not a chance. The team is trying to win now. They are 2.5 games back for a playoff spot. They would be doing more harm than good by actually playing him.
fcmlefty is right - the Twins don’t have a long term answer at 2B or SS. Don’t mistake my defense of Nick Punto as some sort of argument that Punto should be a starting infielder next year for the Twins. I’d love to see them upgrade at both positions if possible. I just don’t think that Casilla, Harris, or Cabrera are better options than Punto - especially if he hits like he did last year, and has done for the past 3 1/2 months.
“In his only full season at the majors (2008), he hit .281 with 7 HR and 50 RBI. Seems like kind of a quick hook for someone who only has 800 major league at-bats.”
Take a look at the underlying reasons that have caused Casilla to have “only” 800 at-bats and “only” one full season in MLB.
To use FAILURE as an excuse for failure is quite a stretch for an excuse.
Boneyard,
If we’re talking about what to do about the infield situation in 2010, all roads lead to Punto.
If we’re talking about which light-hitting player we least want at the plate when a productive at-bat is necessary here in the next couple weeks, all roads lead to Punto.
If we want to go Dick Bremer and issue lunch-relinquishing praise about a player who finally reached the .230 plateau here in September, all roads lead to Punto.
Cuddyer! Just had to say it.
if you look at other of’s bay, abreau, markakis, byrd, choo, j. riveria etc in the al cuddy fits in the middle with a little above ave pay. he is doing what he is payed to do, which we should expect. if he goes back to 07-08 he will he be worth the 8.5 m next yr? surely not. is there any way they can afford him in 11 if they sign mauer to a 20+m contract with morneau and nathan over 10m+ i don’t see how.
then the question is would you trade him this winter at his top value for a quality younger player say escobar to play ss? it would seem like the right thing to do. the strength of the minors is in the outfield that should be ready in a yr or 2. one to many outfielders doesn’t seem to work, does dy or gomez have any trade value? i think very little. so if you need to improve your team how do you do it trading something of little value or something at top value?
will they trade cuddy at the peak? i’d say 99.999% certain no! probaly best for the team long term but will never happen, imo.
is he who they thought he was when he got the big contract? last year no, this year yes, next year who knows, to this point he has not put back to back good yrs together.
hard choice by smith and that’s why he gets the big bucks that to this point he doesn’t seem to be earning.
Jason, what about if we were talking about, say, whether Michael Cuddyer is a good player? Or health care reform? Or whether Pluto should be defined as a planet or not? Would the discussion eventually get back to LNP? Just wondering.
“I just don’t think that Casilla, Harris, or Cabrera are better options than Punto - especially if he hits like he did last year, and has done for the past 3 1/2 months.”
The Twins have fallen into the Punto trap before. Which Punto will you get, Jekyll or Hyde? Are you willing to take that risk over Cabrera, who at the very least would be more predictable?
Boneyard
I agree 100% it has been the rotation. Which is why I advocate trading Cuddy even more. Get some pieces back and use the money to go after a number one starter. Look at our rotation for next year, a whole lot of questions marks.
Baker….awful early in the yr.
Blackburn….awful second half
Liriano….simply awful
Pavano….might be a nice 5th starter
Slowey….coming off injury def a ? mark
The only one I would say I have any confidence in is Baker and I project him more as a #2 or #3 guy.
Trade Cuddy, fill some holes. OR trade someone else like Morneau and fill some holes. I just think Cuddy is the best candidate.
This team needs more pieces to be competitive in a post season situation year after year. I hope they make it this season but there are some glaring holes for 2010. At this point, OF is an excess. Cuddyer has probably the most trading value and the least upside of the outfielders (he is 31, in his prime, the others have not yet entered their prime). If he can bring a young good SS (Yunel Escobar) I’d be all for it. The team needs to think long-term and build a young core of players that are competitive now and will be in 5 years.
Cuddyer is awesome. We were all wrong. Howard is God.
Satisified, Boneyard?
It would just seem to be more worthwhile to have discussions about options that might actually be considered.
Anyone who thinks Cuddyer has even a remote chance of being traded really doesn’t know the Twins. He’s as much a “sure thing” to be a Twin next April when Target Field opens as Mauer and Morneau.
“he is 31, in his prime, the others have not yet entered their prime”
That is assuming the others will actually have a prime…unlike Joe Charboneau.
“The Twins have fallen into the Punto trap before. Which Punto will you get, Jekyll or Hyde? Are you willing to take that risk over Cabrera, who at the very least would be more predictable?”
Considering we have one under contract, and the other one will probably require a multi-year contract? Yes, I am willing to take that risk. Especially since Punto is younger and has outplayed Cabrera since OCab joined the team.
Howard is God?
I apologize for everything i’ve said about you Howard.
JP, your assessment of the rotation was succcinct and accurate, imo. In light of the dearth of tradeable pieces, I think you have a point about filling needs in the rotation. However, there is no indication that we have anything in 2010 to fill Cuddyer’s shoes, either. it’s a quandry. Also, I do wonder who the trading partner would be. No one springs to mind (which doesn’t necessarily mean anything). I think I would hang onto Cuddyer.
I don’t know about the Howard is God, part, Jason.
What the hell, let’s talk about Punto.
You are right Cricket, they are not going to trade Cuddyer, sheesh. To discuss it is a huge waste of time. For years we have been wanting for a right handed power hitter, even before Hunter left. That is why we went out to get Delmon, who in the power area anyway, has flopped. Now we have one in our midst, who may not keep up this pace, and is streaky, but they are not going to trade him.
As far as money, the Twins will simply have to make a significant upgrade to their payroll. That was the deal in getting the new stadium, they said they coudl then afford to keep their top talent. They should have already upgraded the payroll because while the added revenue has not yet rolled in, the value of the team has gone way up since getting the new stadium approved.
There was a little boy,
Who could bring a lot of joy,
To everyone in his neighborhood,
When he was good,
He was very, very good,
But when he was bad he was horrid.
- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Michael Cuddyer was more horrid than very, very good early in the year. I see nothing wrong with objecting to him playing every game while Young and Gomez had to sit when they were struggling.
The Twins’ playoff push (mostly due to beating dead teams) is the worst thing that could happen. First off, they will not make the playoffs - check back with me in 2 weeks on that one, all you giddy Dick-n-Bert kool-aid drinkers. Beyond that, our favorite pencil-pusher, good old mealy-mouthed BS, will use this mirage of, umm, “eptitude” as justification for making no significant moves this Winter. This weakling, non-GM will do the no-brainers (Mauer), and make a few other moves (Casilla, Perkins, et.al.) to placate a manager who is more concerned with kumbaya than R-B-I, but he will consider this failed late-season push to be proof that he is capably steering the fate of this team, which we all know is a joke (Punto).
JC: Agreed 100%. He’s viewed as a core guy. I’ll keep Cuddy, who t98 pointed out is in his prime. All potential does is get people fired. OF is only an excess at the mlb level becuase there are two guys who really need more time in AAA, one of which can’t be sent there.
Howard has every right to say “I told you so” on this one. That said, I do sympathize with some who were frustrated with Cuddyer earlier in the year because of his apparent futility when there were runners in scoring position. I think Howard is primarily taking aim at the rubes who crossed the line from being “frustrated” with Cuddyer over to being complete reactionaries with no appreciation for the ups and downs that even good ballplayers experience. So maybe in the future, some of those geniuses might learn a lesson to perhaps hold their tongue just a little bit before dismissing a player who has obviously proven himself over the years and is merely experiencing a slump.
I love Howard’s blog and enjoy many of the comments, but I think we can all see that there are some yahoos who always think they know better and express themselves in an arrogant and ignorant manner. I’d like to think being THIS wrong about a player would make them think twice the next time they’re about to rant mindlessly, but that’s probably being overly optimistic.
Thrylos-
How is our outfield in excess? Do we have more players, than spots…yes! Do we have more PROVEN players than spots…no! Span and Cuddyer ok. Gomez and your love crush Delmon Young haven’t provided me any hope on a regular basis. You want to trot out Kubel’s wobbly knees out the outfield on a regular basis?
“Especially since Punto is younger and has outplayed Cabrera since OCab joined the team.”
See, this is where you lose me, Pete D. You don’t actually believe Punto has outplayed O-Cab since O-Cab joined the Twins, do you? We’ve all been watching these games. I am completely baffled by that conclusion.
i am so glad none of you people have any real influence over the decisions made by the twins management.
thoughts of trading cuddyer might hold some water if the twins had another right-handed power hitter.
I’ve already admitted that I was mistaken about Cuddyer, but I think he merits another apology. To borrow from “Happy Gilmore”:
You were right, I was wrong.
You are smart, I am dumb,
You are very good looking, I am not attractive.
Cuddyer is a top ten offensive outfielder in the AL this year. If you don’t believe me, then look it up yourself at mntwins.com. Go to stats and pick AL and outfielders. He is top ten in RBI, Homers, slugging. He is worth the money as long as he is healthy, but anyone can get hurt - ask Morny.
What this season does show is that Cuddyer can hit even if not in RF! That is what people should be talking about. Why are people not discussing moving Cuddyer to third or second. Yea he struggled at third but he was young and struggled everywhere then. He actually was pretty decent at second. Sign Crede to a similar contract to this year and move Cuddy to second. Now you’re not overcrowded in the outfield anymore.
Punto - Harris their stats are pretty similar, Harris never draws a walk, but has hit for more power. Punto is way better in the field.
It would be nice to have a true #1 starter, but if they can just get the guys they have to be healthy they will have plenty of SP.
If the Twins had listened to me and gotten rid of Span early in the year, there wouldn’t be any discussion about Cuddyer, Gomez, or Young.
Boneyard
The Reds are team desperate for OF production. I also would feel more confident with DY and Gomez than Tolbert, OC, and Punto as our infield. If either Gomez and DY falter or don’t improve then Kubel plays a little OF and Morales DHs more. We just have so many more options at OF than infield. And a need in the starting rotation.
Mauer and Morneau are in their prime. Trading Cuddy away makes no sense from that perspective.
I’d 100% rather they trade somone(s) that is in the minors for a proven commodity, than trade a proven commodity for a different proven commodity (unless that is Cuddy+ for a true, proven Ace type - I’d do that).
Young is gone after this year, but I will enjoy watching him make a fool of Gardenhire in the years to come.
I am going to repeat my feelings from earlier on this blog:
“”"September 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
For the most part, the bloggers who make the most negative noise are those who are picking apart individual situations to justify their opinions. They do not look at the overall big picture of long seasons and production over long periods of time. Thank goodness the Professional People in charge look at the big picture, not a small sampling of a game or two or three. They know a hell of lot more than I do, and I admit it. GO TWINS!!!”"”
Casilla: He hit a little down cycle and Punto had a nice stretch. It is now the home stretch and they aren’t going to try to mix in Alexi for the rest of the season. I still think he is the best option at second.
Cabrera: He is not a great player, but at least he has solidified SS. I thin he has been a good influence for the young Dominicans, although neither are playing much right now. The Twins need to solidify one of the three vacant infield positions and not have a carousel at all three.
Cuddyer: He is probably my all-time favorite Twin. I like how he plays, I like that he is good to the media and the fans and I like seeing him hit homers. He plays the game the right way and is one of the leaders as well as the spokesman for the team. My 23 year old daughter thinks he is the second cutest on the team (behind Mauer).
can morneau play third base?
DrDon:
I have to disagree. You have to look at the small details. You have to look at what is in the person’s ability to control. Outcomes are based on many, many individual results, most of which do not even involve your team. If the Twins make the playoffs, does that mean they did everything correctly?
Cuddyer is enjoying a streak where opposing pitchers aren’t throwing him low outside sliders in the dirt which he would surely flail at. It’s baffling but we’re all happy that they have stopped.
Congrats to Jason for turning a thread about Cuddyer into another Punto whine fest. Haven’t heard this sob story 50 times this year or anything.
Excess in the outfield? Where exactly? Has anyone seen Kubel in right field? UGH. Yeah trade away some outfielders so we have no 4th guy and no bench. And while we;’re at it, lets trade Cuddyer so we’re up sh1t creek if Morneau goes down again.
What really needs to happen is the Twins trade A Valencia or gasp Hicks for a proven infielder or starter. Now is not the time to play for the future, Morneau and Mauer are not going to want and wait till they are in their 30’s.
“If the Twins make the playoffs, does that mean they did everything correctly?”
not trying to be a wise guy, but i don’t get this comment. the yankees have lost 56 games. if they make the playoffs, does that mean they did everything correctly?
Derek:
It is hard for me to understand how six weeks after Valencia was “too much to give up” to acquire a pitcher he wasn’t even good enough to warrant a September call-up. Maybe if he was still a hot prospect in A or AA ball.
Good question about Morneau mickey. Justin has shown that he has an excellent glove at 1st and you don’t need a lot of range at 3rd.
mickey:
You can do “everything correctly” and still lose. That’s baseball.
I guess I mean “do everything correctly to give yourself the best chance to win”.
Like when a pitcher throws the right pitch in the right location at the right time in the count - and the batter still golfs it out for a HR. What can you do?
I’d be fine with keeping 4 OFs if Gardenhire actually rotated the outfielders, instead of keeping Young out there and using Gomez as a replacement.
Our system develops finesse, flyball pitchers who pitch to contact. Yet, our manager trots out two guys with limited to awful range in the outfield every day. Span is a below average center fielder, and he’s surrounded by some rotation of Cuddyer, Young, and Kubel, while our best oufielder rots on the bench.
I fully expect the Twins to sell for pennies on the dollar with Gomez as they think Span should be the every day CF. He’s a way above average corner outfielder but below average in center. For god’s sake, start him in left or right and leave Gomez in CF. We obviously have no problem having all glove, no bat players in the infield (how many times have two of Tolbert, Punto, and Casilla started in the infield this year?), so why is it such a big deal in the outfield.
Gomez’s plate discipline has been a lot better this year, and I wager that had he not been jerked around, and given so little playing time, that he wouldn’t press so hard when he does get playing time.
I won’t enjoy Young making a fool out of Gardenhire if he’s doing it against the Twins. I won’t enjoy that at all.
Boneyard,
I will especially enjoy that (as long as the Twins still win).
“Congrats to Jason for turning a thread about Cuddyer into another Punto whine fest. Haven’t heard this sob story 50 times this year or anything.”
Thanks for the congratulations, Derek, but one correction: It’s 105 times, not 50, (One for each game Punto has started this year).
Jason,
I think you were making your point between Punto starts as well.
See, what you’re supposed to do is this: after a person makes the same mistake two or three times, you just hold your tongue and forget about it. The more the mistake is made, the less you should complain about it.
At least Jason is consistent.
I’m still baffled why we’ve turned our back on Casilla. He hit .263 in August, peaking at .209. He’s now hitting .196 overall
Read your statement again, Jason, and then tell me if you’re still ‘baffled.’
If you’re still having trouble, focus in on the last sentence.
i would be willing to say that punto is talked about 365 days a year on twins blogs.
WJ, your position is makig me a wee bit nervous, but I get where you’re coming from.
JP, the Reds may be desperate for an OF, but what pitcher do they have that they want to get rid of that would solve our need for a #1 starter?
Without a doubt, ggg. I think he’s talked about more than Mauer, who is having an historic kind of year.
Boneyard:
I think conventional wisdom is that Delmon has more trade value to an American League team because of the DH rule.
My sister is in LOVE with Cuddyer and his blue eyes and “cute dimples”. I tore into him earlier in the year after he made a bone-headed play telling my sister we needed to “send him down the road…he is too slow…swings at pitches the bat boy is afraid might make it to the backstop.” I dislike him for a totally different reason now. Now, every time he runs to first good she calls me and says, “How do you like Cuddyer NOW!?!?” Good work Michael, keep it up and I’ll just keep swallowing my words.
“See, this is where you lose me, Pete D. You don’t actually believe Punto has outplayed O-Cab since O-Cab joined the Twins, do you? We’ve all been watching these games. I am completely baffled by that conclusion.”
Believe it? Of course I do.
Since August 1st -
Orlando Cabrera - .251/.285/.399/.684
Nick Punto - .275/.359/.343/.702
Punto has been playing pretty well since he came off the DL. However, I’ve shown you stats like this time and time again, and you continue to complain about Punto. Why can’t you accept that Punto has been the best infielder for the Twins since the All Star break?
Yeah, although somebody like the Giants or Reds who are so offensively challenged might want to take the risk on the shaky D. Also, the Giants are pitching rich. Maybe there is our trade partner if Brian Sabean could ever get past that Joe Nathan et al. thing.
Pete D: best infielder of best middle infielder?
That was supposed to be an “or” not and “of,” Pete. Sorry.
Boneyard -
Depends on if you count Cuddyer as an infielder.
OPS of Twins infielders, sorted by PA since August 1st -
Cabrera - .684 / 201 PA
Morneau - .596 / 139 PA
Punto - .702 / 118 PA
Harris - .621 / 103 PA
Casilla - .637 / 78 PA
Crede - .517 / 63 PA
Tolbert - .985 / 31 PA
Buscher - .782 / 21 PA
Cuddyer, on the year, has a 1.112 OPS as a first baseman in 89 PA. 74 of those PA have been since August 1st. I don’t really feel like trying to find his exact OPS since August 1st strictly as a first baseman, but it would more than likely sit first on this list of anyone with more than Tolbert’s amount of PA.
Cuddy is going through a hot streak…nothing more. Do we still have Punto defenders out there?
“USAFChief says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I’m still baffled why we’ve turned our back on Casilla. He hit .263 in August, peaking at .209. He’s now hitting .196 overall
Read your statement again, Jason, and then tell me if you’re still ‘baffled.’
If you’re still having trouble, focus in on the last sentence.”
Best comment in history!
They don’t start the season on August 1st.
I took so much grief on these star trib Twins blogs for supporting Cuddy early this year. Koolaid drinker was the nicest thing people said. Vindication is sweet. Way to go Cuddy!
Boneyard -
I just realized that I said All-Star break in one post, and then went from August 1st in the other. My apologies. Got the All Star break and trading deadline mixed up. If I have time, I’ll try and correct those.
“I think conventional wisdom is …..”
wisdom on a baseball blog?
Benny W -
Nor does the season end on August 1st.
ggg and Pete D…I nominate your 1:46 posts for Co-POD from Chief. Thank you.
Boneyard -
Check here - http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=MIN&year=2009#2nd%20Half
If we go by the All Star break, Morneau’s OPS jumps up to .713, 10 points higher than Punto. So, to get technical, I’ll say the following -
Punto has had the best offensive showing of Twins non-first base infielders with at least 50 plate appearances since the All Star break.
Well, regardless of play since August 1st, I’d take Cabrera at short next season over Punto.
Seeing as how the Twins don’t have anybody to supplant Punto at 2B, making him the regular shortstop again would just be rearranging the furniture.
I think the real reason so many were so unfairly critical of Cuddyer can be summed up well by loking at the following comment:
thrylos98 says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
“…At this point, OF is an excess. Cuddyer has probably the most trading value and the least upside of the outfielders (he is 31, in his prime, the other outfielders are not in their prime…”
I think a lot of fans share that view. However in many cases “upside”= unrealized potential= imaginary potential. I see the same set of tools in Carlos Gomez that I saw in Lew Ford. I see the same set of tools in Delmon Young that I saw in Brian Buchanan. Is there potential? Sure. Will it be realized? Not unless these player’s step up and display it when given opportunity.
My conclusion is, stick with the sure thing (Cuddyer) until he proves otherwise and let the parade of potentials earn their playing time. Span earned his. Why can’t Gomez?
Thry: If you trade Cuddyer, who hits right handed above replacement level in this line-up? The closest right-handed hitting outfielder to the majors in the Twins system is Joe Benson. He’s three years away. I am not a fan of opening up one hole to fill another. If we had a surplus of good right-handed hitting outfielders, it would be another story. But we don’t.
Yeah, really, cuddyer is great and usually has been… Now all we need to do is trade Delmon Young and Brendan Harris for Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett… We’d be a championship team for sure!!! Got!
I am glad everyone is feeling so good about themselves for backing Cuddyer.
I remember when many of you had the foresight to say back in April: Don’t worry. Cuddy will continue to stink up the place for the next two months, but sometime in June he’ll start producing, and end up having a great year!
Kind of ironic that Gardy did not like Garza or Bartlett and the two we got in trade are forever in his doghouse as well.
Howard, do you type with one hand while patting yourself on the back? It’s great to right and shameful to brag about it. Pride, I believe, is one of the seven deadly sins.
One of the surprising things about Cuddyer has been his durability.
I also think it is worth noting that there WILL be weak spots in a lineup. You can survive a 2nd baseman hitting .230 w/o power (Punto) as long as you DON’T START any outfielders who are hitting .230 w/o power (Gomez). This team has been fighting to overcome a few too many holes. Looking at it realistically, I can’t blame Gardenhire or even Smith for the struggles to this point. I have to blame Casilla, Gomez, Young, Harris, Punto, Tolbert Perkins, Liriano and injuries.
Still, they’ve kept us watching.
Some guys are stepping up when it counts. Even some of the guys I put in the blame list. Punto kept playing because he was often the best (albeit, painful) option. Right now, he’s finally making himself an acceptable option. Tolbert is rebounding nicely and winning points with me. Duensing is impressing like crazy.
But, ultimately,Cuddyer is making the difference. He is saving the season.
I bet Thrylos hates that it had to be this way!
Walter,
We back whoever helps our local 9 win baseball games…unless their name is Nick Punto.
cmath: you know what t98’s answer is going to be. And he’ll have some asinine stat to back it up
How Delmon Young is projecting to be the next Kirby Puckett…??
Would that be his response…??
Mauer’s singular performance makes him such an obvious choice that the only reason for debate is to fill time in the 24/7 sports universe
Do I ever agree with this. It reminds me of when Santana was pretty much a lock in 06 (or was it 04?) and they spent two months between Schilling and Hudson trying to make one of them sound like competition so they had a horse race to talk about.
If Greinke can be Cy Young (which he could be) then Mauer can be MVP.
t98,
They played in 163 last year, are in the race again in this a down year and have 4 division titles & 1 ALCS appearance since 2002. They could always do better but I’d say that qualifies as “being in a competitive post season situation year after year”.
And by the way OF is not an excess with this team. They have two decent ones. And two who have done nothing to show their ready to be good at this level on any sort of consistent basis. You don’t make yourself significantly weaker in one spot in the hopes of getting a bit better at another spot. The least upside would be your man Young at this point. He’s not tradeable however. Maybe they can give him away.
And to the point of “The team needs to think long-term and build a young core of players that are competitive now and will be in 5 years.” While I’ve already covered the latter part of that statement, keeping Cuddy actually addressed the former. Think for a second about how trading Cuddy or buying him out would be perceived by the only player that’s feelings on this subject really matter. Do you believe such a move is what Mauer has in mind when saying he wants to see a commitment by the organization to competing for titles? Lose Cuddy, a guy Mauer has spilled blood with if you will and can trust, you might as well send Mauer with him because he’s not coming back through that door.
Don’t let your hate lose sight of these facts.
How Delmon Young is projecting to be the next Kirby Puckett…??
Kirby got better each year, DY is getting worse each year.
Also Howard, there were people such as myself that pointed towards that sudden spike in walks from Cuddyer as a sign that he was seeing pitches better (and thus would start getting better stuff to hit)
Whatever the case, Cuddyer is not the guy that we should be trading if he increases his value. A guy like Tolbert, Gomez, or Young (who is younger and thus more desirable for that alone) would be somebody you look to trade if they “raise their value”.
Exactly…Delmon is more comparable to Marty Cordova than Kirby Puckett.
kirby91,
Don’t forget Kubel in the outfield. I would say that Kubel is a better fielder than Young. His range isn’t great, but he takes better routes to the ball and doesn’t make you hold your breath when the ball is hit to him.
“The team needs to think long-term and build a young core of players that are competitive now and will be in 5 years.”
Isn’t that one of the reasons that guys like Santana got frustrated with the team? Wasn’t “building for a future that never comes” the mantra for certain complainers the last 2-3 years?
Trading Cuddyer is exactly what you DON’T want this team to do if they’re showing a change in philosophy. The guy is doing exactly what you need him to do at a time when you need it most.
Would you also trade Kubel, who is having a breakout season (following a strong 2008 as it was)?
Cuddyer and Mauer will hopefully breach the 30 HR mark this season. Kubel could very well do it to yet. And you want to take one of those guys away?
The Twins in 2010 could very well field an opening day lineup with 4 guys that hit 30 HRs the previous year.
Span/Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel….how do you justify breaking that up after seeing what they’ve done this year?
To the notion of Tolbert acting like a Punto want-a-be. That’s fine with me. You need to have a guy like that on this team. You just can’t have two of them with one needing to be a starter.
Given that, I’ll take the much cheaper Tolbert going forward who has shown he do the multiple position fill in thing at a significant cost savings. That will help fill up the Mauer coffers and keep hope alive for keeping guys like Cuddy and getting some other players.
Also, to whomever said Cuddy’s $10-mill was star money and Cuddy wasn’t a star callibar player… go look at league salaries. $10 mill is not “star” money. It’s good to very good player money which is exactly the level Cuddy is producing at this year. “Stars” are making $15-$20 and even $25 (in A-Rod’s case) per year. Cuddy is being paid just about what his production this season warrants.
That looks like a sounds investment to me from a business perspective.
Don’t forget Kubel in the outfield.
Kubel won’t play OF next year unless Morneau starts the season on the DL with back issues.
But next season, they will probably come out of Spring with a definate idea of the “everyday” OF. With the fourth guy being a bench option.
And honestly, either Gomez or Young are fine bench options comparred to past seasons featuring Josh Rabe, Jason Tyner, etc.
Thanks for the clarification, Pete. I think that says more about our infield than it does Punto, though. That being said, I still think the rotation, not Punto and the MI’s, should be the top priority in the offseason.
You definately can’t trade Cuddyer now with Morneau’s back in question. And with a healthy Morneau, you need to keep at least one power bat in the lineup. I’m convinced Delmon will not develop under the current management.
Great idea - I’ll start printing out some new “Mt. Crushmore II” t-shirts for next season.
T, I totally agree with not trading away one of the players you mentioned. The only way the club should do it is it brings a fronht line starter, and I just don’t know if there are any such deals to be had out there.
Mike wants wins,
You didn’t want to talk about Cuddy’s defense but I think it is totally relevant to discuss right now and one thing Howard left off is justifiable back slapping post.
Cuddy’s offense has been great. His defense in right field can be looked at a number of different ways.
But what isn’t debatable is what Cuddy’s defense at 1st since Morny went down has done to his current & future value to the Twins (not to mention the current division title race). Now the team knows for sure that Cuddy can be viewed as fill-in for Morneau at 1st thus allowing Gardy (if he’s not canned as many on here would hope) to give Justin more days off in the field earlier in the season. This of course might help avoid Morny’s Penthouse to outhouse like production down the stretch the past few seasons.
Until now I don’t think Gardy felt comfortable putting anyone over there and that made him more inclined to give in with Justin told him he was good to go for the 100th straight day.
He may not be the best RF in the league but his defense at 1st has only made him a bigger asset in the long term to the Twins.
Go Twins!
PS-Congrats Howard on not having your confidence in Cuddy shaken by the fact he’s not 23, never hit an ump with a bat, shunned the tutelage of his bosses, or carries the promise that only a young/Young African-American player can deliver to at least one of his most vocal supporters on this blog. (Though I know the latter has nothing to do with yours, mine or the position of most everyone here).
Go Twins!
I am 1000% convinced I don’t want to see Cuddyer traded, but, if he weren’t with the team and Morneau got hurt doesn’t it seem that Mauer could play first and Morales could catch?
I think the better argument for making Cuddyer untouchable is that a powerful, righthanded bat has been really hard to come by. Attach it to a driven, positive personality and a + arm, and you’ve got a strong, core player.
ES16,
My bad on Kubel! You’re right as rain. He’s not great out there but can certainly be used enough to help the cause. And his stick has been raking. Hope he keeps it going.
They have many prospects who are tradeable. I think the sudden pause to bringing up Valencia may spur more internal discussion as to who really is ‘off limits’.
Mea culpa. I thought maybe his many injuries had caused his body to betray him. I’m very glad to be proven wrong, since he seems like a genuinely nice guy.
Good article that talks about Young and Liriano being at the crossroads:
Good stuff Howard. You were and are 100% correct. I’ve said a couple of times the past 3 weeks to my boys that he’s the MVP of the Twins (right now). Maybe not for the year, but with his bat and ability to fill in at 1st, he’s it (right now).
I have to say, it’s frustrating to watch him flail at the bender…..you just KNOW it’s coming, even when he doesn’t seem to comprehend it. But the boy is mashing! And has been. I like him. And he’s certainly worth the price.
I’m happy you called out the nay-sayers, it’s easy to hide behind the key-board and gun people down without reason. Someone needs to wave the bs flag on them. Good work.
“Span/Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel….how do you justify breaking that up after seeing what they’ve done this year?”
the result is a team a few games over .500 and only in a race because the division sucks. while our record isn’t this bad due to their play in order to fix the problems the team has you have to give up something to get something. trading only the players nobody likes and expecting an ace or top middle infielder in return isn’t reasonable.
of course there is free agency but what can we expect out of that?
Oh but he DOES slap 5 WAY too hard.
Trade him…..
First of all, congratulations for making this blog post.
Second, to all the Michael Cuddyer haters out there— in your face! To those of you who have taken back your words, you have my respect now.
Third, go Twins!
Fourth, extend Cuddyer’s contract. This guy is a rock for us in RF and as the backup first baseman.
I’ve flip flopped on the Cruddy thing this year. In the pre-season I thought he was going to be improved and a good contributor. Then in the first few months of the season I began to wonder if he was washed up. He has proven himself this year but I’d not bet money on him next year to produce and stay healthy. I think that all the anger towards Cruddy is because he Gardy and punto are secret lovers! And I still say this team and outfield would have been better served rotating OF’s and making sure Gomez and Young played more consistantly not just when Gardy has a hunch or is peived at someone.
I was never wrong. I’ve been on the Cuddy bandwagon for the last some years. The only jerseys I have have the #5 on them. Thanks for a great recap and picking on those Cuddy haters.
Give em ‘ell Cuddy!!
the result is a team a few games over .500 and only in a race because the division sucks.
Yes. You’re right. That’s entire Span/Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel’s fault. Blow it up.
The Twins primary issue this season was pitching, jumping between the shaky young pitching and struggling bullpen.
I think that all the anger towards Cruddy is because he Gardy and punto are secret lovers!
Well at least it’s a reasonable complaint…
Also you may want to get your keyboard checked. The “u” and “r” appear to be stuck together.
T says: “Yes. You’re right. That’s entire Span/Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel’s fault. Blow it up.”
did you read what i said? “…while our record isn’t this bad due to their play…. ” how did you come up with me saying it was their fault???
As I have admitted many times before (in this thread and previous ones, as in real life), I was wrong about Cuddyer. I was also very wrong about Liriano and Delmon Young. I thought they would dominate this year.
But I take comfort in the fact that I was absolutely right about Crede! I knew he would suck and he has fulfilled my prophecy quite well.
Iconoclast:
Don’t worry, my “picks to click” were Delmon Young and Glen Perkins!
“Span/Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel….how do you justify breaking that up after seeing what they’ve done this year”
Easily. Look at our infield options. Look at the needs at the starting rotation.
The debate whether Cuddy has been productive is not the issue. No one is arguing that. The debate is whether trading while a guy’s value is high will improve the team. If you get the right pieces and use the cost savings to sign the right guy then I say Yes.
I don’t understand why some people get offended some people suggest trading someone. It doesn’t mean I hate them. And the only untradable player on the team is Mauer. I’m open to any and all trades that will improve this team. I personally this team could be improved by trading Cuddyer.
Iconoclast,
I wouldn’t say that Crede has sucked. His injuries sure have, but he’s been very good at 3B, when he’s healthy. He only had 333 AB and he hit 15 HR and had 48 RBI.
JP: by your assessment of the situation, Mauer should be the tradeable one. He’s the one most likely to fill all those other needs.
Value high? Check
Cost savings? double check (since he will cost twice as much as Cuddy per year)
Doesn’t make much sense, does it?
Doesn’t make much sense, does it?
It does if you don’t leave out the whole ‘while his value is high’ part of JP’s post.
Punto?? Get rid of him with Casilla. Along with one or 2 players to be named later and get a pitcher or a slugger or both. Spend some money twins. We did, now it is your turn.
Someone misstated the facts above. Cuddy had a lousy April and a good May. Didn’t he?
The dump (or trade) Cuddy “movement” was premature at the time. And it borders on the ridiculous now, especially with the apparent loss of Crede and Morneau’s injury.
Actually, it IS ridiculous.
give it up JP, no one is buying, nor should buy your trade Cuddy argument
“…Mauer should be the tradeable one.” maybe if signing mauer turns the twins into the second coming of the kevin garnett/timberwolves all your money in one player and can’t afford decent players to help him.
ggg: I was trying to play devil’s advocate with my statement, but you do have a point. Hopefully it doesn’t play out that way
Good call by Howard and by Gardenhire on Cuddyer.
I’m impressed by how many of you manned up about being wrong about Cuddyer. Is thrylos on vacation?
fcmlefty,
Actually Trading Mauer would cost the team, the drop in attendance would far out weigh the saving in salaries.
FWIW, I agree that Cuddyer, Morales and Ramos (Assuming Mauer is re-signed) should be the primary trade bait to get infield/pitching help this offseason.
I think Young wouldn’t be a large dropoff from Cuddyer’s production if given everyday playing time. Obviously his HR total would be less (around 15) but his RBI total (which is more important) would be comparable (around 75).
on the books for 2011:
morneau; 14m
nathan; 11.25m
kubal; 5.25m
baker; 5m
cuddy op; 10.5m
punto op; 5m
add to that 20+m for mauer would put the payroll for just these guys at 71m that leaves around 15-20m for the other 19 guys.
This forum will be the exact same next year…except it will be called The Delmon Young Chronicles. And he will probably be on a different team! (and as Walter said, probably killing the twins, thanks Gardy)
I WAS PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE!
Cuddyer isn’t going anywhere. Mauer isn’t going anywhere.
Trading Cuddyer at this point is essentially doing the act of opening the door and escorting Mauer out town. For that reason, he’s not going anywhere.
Delmon is worse offensively and defensively than Cuddyer. Look at the numbers and see for yourself. Heck, even the 2007 season in Tampa that everyone hangs thier hat on doesn’t compare to Cuddys 2006 or 2009 season.
The bottom line is: Who would you rather have on your team playing in the outfield, Michael Cuddyer or Milton Bradley? Pretty easy choice I would imagine…
JP says: ” I personally this team could be improved by trading Cuddyer.”
Kind of like we improved when we traded Tom Brunanski for Tommy Herr?
Cuddyer has really stepped up in crunchtime when we needed him to and along the way he has proven many naysayers wrong about him. This should come as not such a big surprise. Someone has a bad game or a bad stretch and fans start griping and moaning without looking at the big picture. Over the years cuddyer has tended to peak late in the season. Without a doubt Cuddy has a huge role on this team, one of the few right handed power bats in the lineup, hustles, has played practically everywhere on the field, solid on D, great arm, great clubhouse guy. If he wasn’t injured so often last year more people might appreciate him. Cuddyer is showning now what Gardy sees in him. Another story should be done on our much maligned manager who is victim of unwarranted criticism. This year our pitching staff has failed to live up to their expectations and have fallen to one catastrophic injury after another. During the worst stretch people started calling for Ron Gardenhire’s head. Come on people we’ve been spoiled by the consistent success given to us by one Ronald Clyde Gardenhire. He hasn’t delivered a world series yet but each year he has us in the running for the division title but this year is not over and once the playoffs start ANYTHING can happen (see 1987 Twins). We’ll never be the Yankees but a manager is only as good as the talent on the field and given that he has had to manage with one of the historically lowest payrolls in baseball what Gardy does year after year is AMAZING. When everyone had us counted out he has this team right back in the hunt AGAIN. His teams battle for him, pitch soundly, play unselfishly and play top of the MLB level defense year in, year out. With a limited budget Gardy has given us four division titles, a very close second in 2008 and here we are again down to the wire in 2009 after having the pitching staff go haywire…if this team sneaks into first place again it would be nothing short of miraculous and Gardy should be unanimous manager of the year…it is time people start appreciating him.
Well, here’s my bit:
Cuddy is better in the OF than many have given credit for and has shown his chops at 1st Base as well as on offense recently.
Harris needs to go and Punto is essentially the Al Newman of this team and Al has a World Series ring. Beyond that, the lineup needs to be entirely re-considered when you look at Mauer’s slugging percentage this year compared to anything previously.
To finish, the Twins have had inconsistent starting pitching and a struggling bullpen all year. The offense has been less of an issue this year than the last several and you cannot win a playoff game without a solid bullpen. We saw it ‘87 and we saw in ‘91. Cuddy’s performance has been excellent both on O and D in the latter part of the year and we couldn’t expect a better replacement to Morneau at this point.
Its not the hitters, its not the middle infield or 3rd Base, or even the OF; its the pitching that’s killed us. If you want a better offseason set-up, then look at our options in the bullpen and start upgrading.
Cuddyer is topping Brunansky’s best year with the Twins.
Picking up Cuddyer’s option for 2011 will depend on where Gpmez and Young are in their development, if there isn’t improvement then Cuddyer’s option will be picked up, but if BOTH Gomez and Young show that they can be everyday players then the Twins have a tough decision make. The key to remember is that there’s another season ahead and alot can happen between this season and next years offseason.
Geez, Howard, this feels like a baseball version of an AA meeting: my name is Beisbol and I’m a Michael Cuddyer basher.
HAHA, actually I was on the lighter side of the bashers. My biggest frustration with Cuddyer going back to last season including Game 163 has been his questionable baserunning. (That relative slowness has sometimes been a detriment out in the field also.) His swings at breaking balls down and away haven’t thrilled me either.
But now all is forgiven for both Michael and YES, EVEN LNP!!! Sorry, even if he were to permanently morph into a scaled-down Miggie Tejada, he will always be Little Nicky. HAHA again. LNP is finally earning his paycheck at the plate. It’s always been a mystery to me why a guy who has been described by his teammates as the best athlete on the team doesn’t have the hand eye coordination to bat quite a bit higher than .200 for the entire season???
LNP is quoted after tonight’s game that he’s feeling very confident right now at the plate. Let’s hope that carries over to 2010.
Actually I decided to jump in even at this late hour to comment on Blake’s comment about the games really counting at this point in the season. Why is that comment ever made? Game 1 counts as much as Game 162. It’s a whole bunch of games in the middle third of this season that has the Twins in second place instead of running away with the Division. I think all those games were just as important.
There is plenty of blame to go around when the team loses. Unfortunately our feeble memories make us zoom in on glaring losses like the Nathan meltdown in the last Sox game ever at the Dome. It was so frustrating last year to come so close and to rehash the one game that got away that would have made a difference. I’ve been dreading a similar recurring nightmare this season.
Howard, Thry, or anyone else:
what link gives hitter’s stats against each team he’s faced this season?
I’m interested in how Mauer has fared against every team the Twins have played this year. The talking heads are making the feeble argument against Greinke about which teams he’s faced. (They may be doing the Twins a BIG favor if all this chitchat does indeed push Greinke to the Yankee series rather than facing the Twins twice before The End.)
I’m concerned that the same argument is going to be made about Mauer, although I seem to recall Joe bashing one out to monument park in dead center at the new Yank Stadium. I only recall one very tiny stretch of games when Joe was a little cool at the plate but now I can’t remember which team(s) were involved.
“what link gives hitter’s stats against each team he’s faced this season?”
Here you go. Just clink on ’season batting splits.’
The debate is whether trading while a guy’s value is high will improve the team.
So wait…wait…
Going into 2008 (and less so in 2009) the Whiner’s Mantra was “Playing for a future that never comes”.
So now you have that future paying off in seasons such as what we’re seeing from Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, and Cuddyer…and you want to start trading those guys?
Isn’t that the EXACT opposite of evreything that people have been bitching about the last 3 years? Or does it only make sense because Cuddyer still doesn’t get to sit at the cool people’s table with Span, Mauer, and Morneau.
Cuddyer still is mediocre to lousy in clutch situations. This year he’s batting .187 with 2 outs and RISP with career marks of .238 in the same situations. Granted, he’s hitting roughly 20 points higher this year late in close games than his career numbers (career .267 compared to sitting around .284 or so this year). All too often I fully expect him to come through for the other team when death is on the line, and more often than not, he does.
big jimmy,
find a stat that charts doubles and home runs with the bases empty in close and low-scoring games and you might change your cherry-picked opinion. start with game 163 last year and move forward …
Where are all the ‘there’s no such thing as clutch hitting’ advocates when someone uses the term to slam a player instead of praise one?
Probably laying low in the weeds along with the ‘Twins are cheap and won’t pay for a solid RH hitter with some power on the FA market’ people who find nothing inconsistent with concurrently arguing that the Twins should trade the one they already have.
I guarantee that if the Twins were to trade Cuddyer (which they won’t), it would take all of about 30 seconds for people around here to start whining about how they don’t have a RH hitting corner OF with some pop and won’t spend the money in the FA market to bring one in.
T’s right. People who advocate to trade Cuddyer (or Kubel or Morneau or Mauer or Nathan…) are essentially saying the Twins should continue “playing for the future”.
The Twins have a solid core on which to build around for a legit run in 2010. This is the future and they need to shore up their starting pitching and fill an infield spot or two. And they need to do so without giving up any of the most productive players they currently have… and that list includes Cuddyer, whether people like it or not.
Where are all the ‘there’s no such thing as clutch hitting’ advocates
I’ve never heard anyone say ‘there’s no such thing as clutch hitting,’ Jim.
I have heard plenty of people theorize ‘there are no clutch hitters.’
Those are not the same thing.
I’m mww, and I endorse JimC’s last paragraph.
Fine, Chief. But the point remains the same.
If someone contends there’s no such thing as a clutch hitter, then that person should stand up just as strongly and point out that there’s no such thing as a hitter who fails to clutch hit.
Actually, Jim, that logic doesn’t work. It is possible that there are no clutch hitters, but that there are people that can’t hit in the clutch. So far, I think all I’ve said is that no one can find evidence that more than a handful of players MIGHT be clutch, but that statisticallyt he outcomes don’t show that there are clutch hitters.
I’ve never checked on the latter…
I agree with Mike. It makes sense that some players might be more likely to be less productive in a big situation because they try too hard. It seems less likely that a player could somehow improve his skills in a clutch situation.
My argument wasn’t about sense or not, it was about the laws of logic.
If it is a clutch situation, hitters will not hit better than normal over their careers
does not imply
If it it is a clutch situation, hitters will not hit worse than normal over their careers.
I’m not opinining on reality or any other thing, other than the rules of logic do not allow JimC or anyone else to make the claim JimC made….that’s all.
You guys are hilarious.
You really should contact MLB. You’ve apparently discovered a statistic that can’t be used to demonstrate a player is better than someone else… but CAN be used to demonstrate he sucks.
The owners will be very anxious to bring you and your logic in to the arbitration hearing process.
I never suggested I had discovered anything or that there were statistics to prove my point. I just happen to believe that hitting in the Major Leagues is a skill that is unlikely to improve just because it is a clutch situation. I also happen to believe that there may be situations where certain players may sometimes be less productive because they try to do to much.
So if Player A has a BA, OBP and SLG that are each .25 higher in “clutch” situations, it’s not because he’s more focused… not because he’s less prone to being nervous… less prone to trying to “do too much.”. It’s simply a statistical glitch that’s unlikely to repeat itself.
But if Player B has a BA, OB and SLG that are each .25 lower in “clutch” situations, it’s very possibly because he has some personality flaw that results in him being inclined to underperform in those situations.
OK. Whatever.
Jim -
I guess my question would then be - why isn’t player A ALWAYS focused? There is no benefit to performing better in the clutch than at other points during a game. A hitter always wants to do their best, don’t they?
I guess if I was a baseball GM or whatever, and saw a guy that was constantly hitting better during the clutch, I might question his drive during non-clutch times.
idiots-
cuddyer sees more breaking balls with guys on base and other tight situations. his flailing away at such pitches suggests he is not a good breaking ball hitter. thus his “clutch” statistics suffer.
can anyone follow that or am i the only one that ever thought of that? 
IMO, there is often a sample size issue when looking at ‘clutch.’ There’s not enough data there to draw many sound conclusions. You’ll often see ‘clutch’ stats vary wildly from year to year precisely for this reason.
There’s also the little issue of…what the heck is a ‘clutch’ situation anyway?
There is no definition.
And I’m with Pete D. Why the heck ain’t Mr Clutch focusing harder in the 3rd inning, so we don’t NEED his clutch hit in the 9th?
Jim, I didn’t realize we were discussing Cuddyer. I only read the last few comments and I figured the conversation had drifted. I guess that explains why you are getting so emotional about this. I never suggested that it was a ‘personality flaw’ that might cause some players to underperform in certain situations. Cuddy is my favorite player, so I will bow out of this discussion for now. I only want to say that I stated specifically that I was NOT making a statistical argument, so your example doesn’t apply. (Although I do think Pete makes a good point about player A.)
Jim, hate to break it to you, but the laws of stats and logic make your scenario very possible, yes. I’m not saying it is true, I’m saying that one does not imply the other. Sorry, I didn’t make up the laws of logic, they just exist in the universe.
Also, just because we can’t prove something does exist (which you can’t really prove anyway, but let’s not bring in the laws of science also), does not mean it does not exist.
As for Pete’s argument, it just isn’t possible to be always perfectly focused for the vast majority of human beings. I would imagine some days Pete is more productive at work or school or whatever than other days.
Look at pro golfers for perfect examples of how not being clutch 100% exists in that sport. Some players utterly melt down in majors, they’ve admitted it in books. Their stats bear it out in majors and in late/lead situations.
Personally, I like Cuddyer. He’s by far the best righty hitter we have. As far as clutch situations go, there are a lot of people that tend to tighten up, tense up, press a little too much when there’s more on the line. Cuddy seems to be one of those guys. I’m not in the “trade Cuddy” camp or anything like that. I just think he’s best when he’s a little looser, earlier in the game. He’s batting .302 this year with no one on base, .260 with runners in scoring position. Only .249 with anyone on base. And 20 of his homers this year have been solo shots. That’s evidence of him being looser when he doesn’t have to worry about others on base. Yeah, yeah, give me static about his career stats: .277 with RISP, .276 with anyone on, .264 with men on base. In other words, it’s almost better to walk the guy in front of him and pitch to Cuddyer.
