The ending we pretty much expected
Posted on October 12th, 2009 – 12:11 AMBy Howard
Earlier this season, I wrote about how the good things that happen in baseball make me feel very good — and that while the bad things are annoying, the lowest of lows doesn’t come close to rivaling the highest of highs. The Twins can make you numb for a while with the performance they turned in during Game 2 against the Yankees, but I could make a list of a dozen things that happened this season — each of which would outweigh how that loss made me feel. OK, maybe only a half-dozen, but you get the idea.
Yeah, I’m still pretty incredulous that Nick Punto made his heads-down base-running blunder in the eighth inning — rounding third, heading toward home and getting thrown out trying to return on the single that Derek Jeter tracked down behind second base. And I’m even more incredulous that Punto — while being a stand-up guy for talking about the play — cited the crowd reaction to Denard Span’s grounder: “55,000 people screaming, the crowd got me.” We’ll make sure to whisper next time.
Nobody out, tie game, Scott Ullger (the third-base coach) giving the stop sign. It was as if Punto wanted to cement the folly of those who still talk about the Twins “doing the little things right” — and as if Carlos Gomez hadn’t driven home that point with his Game 2 gaffe at second base. Jerry White, the coach responsible for issues on the bases, needs to spend the winter revising his curriculum.
Yeah, I’m still trying to figure out what happened to Jason Kubel, who had one hit and nine strikeouts in the three games. And the whole Joe Nathan thing in Game 2 and the three walks-by-three relievers breakdown in the ninth that let the Yankees extend their lead from 2-1 to 4-1.
And I’m annoyed that it is the Twins who are contributing so mightily to the rehabilitation of A-Rod’s reputation as something other than an October choke artist. Good and annoyed.
So many parts went kablooey over these last three games that it’s a wonder two of them were as competitive as they turned out to be. Face it, kids. The Yankees are the best team in baseball. They won 103 games and pretty much ran off with the best division in baseball. Would they have won 123 if they played in the AL Central? That doesn’t excuse the Minnesota mistakes as much as make me wonder why the games weren’t tennis-match scores — 6-0, 6-0, 6-0.
The best team doesn’t always win in October, but it’s kind of nice to have a No. 7 batter (Robinson Cano), who batted .320 and hit 25 homers, and a No. 8 (Nick Swisher) who had 29 homers and a .371 on-base percentage. How does that compare to Brendan Harris and Jose Morales, the Twins 7/8 guys in Game 3? After the game, a spent-sounding Gardy gave appropriate props to the Yankees while duly noting the breakdowns by Punto and the bullpen.
Some of the fun memories from Game 3 will come from the 54,000 or so people with whom Ms. Baseball and I shared the Metrodome for its last major-league baseball game. These things had little to do with the game. The stadium-wide laughter and “A-Rod” chant following the playing of that public service announcement with the crumbling statue: “Sports are good for a kid’s body. Steroids aren’t.”
The sign in left field my colleague Chris emailed me about about that I’m sure the TBS camera crew opted not to show: “These Baseball (announcers) Suck.”
And while I’m not normally a fan of chucklebrains who run on the field during games, I will cite the one Sunday night as the exception that proves the rule. The guy — wearing a powder-blue Blyleven jersey — jumped over the wall between home plate and first, and led more than a dozen security officers on a ninth-inning chase all the way out to the center field wall. He was finally tackled while trying to scale the wall, after one pursuer fell to the ground and several others showed they weren’t quite in chase-down form.
(Ethical disclaimer: Nothing here should be considered an endorsement of running on the field or any other form of game-delaying behavior by spectators. This was simply an epic run, and I am pretending that the motive was simply to get Mariano Rivera’s arm to stiffen during the delay, as opposed to anything that might have been fueled by stupidity borne of alcohol or the man’s parenting.)
So that’s it. The team that thrilled us during the final weeks of the season, and especially in the final days of the regular season, went three-and-out against a better team. The team that spent five months making us wonder about the depth of their heart and soul, got us all revved up for the stretch drive and teased us with thoughts of playing later into October. The team that has some flaws that need fixing for 2010 (more on that another time) gave us a 2009 to remember.
We were witness to a historic performance by a solid M-V-P candidate. (Sorry, Derek, you’re second) and a fifth division title in eight years. Yes, I want more than division titles in the future. But right now I’m feeling pretty good about the hometown team. I’m happy with the return on my investment of time and energy.
All the more knowing that the next time I see them play, it’ll be outdoors.
Have fun, Yankees. It’ll be interesting to hear you explain why you lost to the Angels.
272 Responses to "The ending we pretty much expected"
Well said.
It was a fun season, I will forgive them not making it a fun week.
Thank you, Twins, for a great run. Only one team is left standing in the end. Hopefully, it won’t be the Yankees.
The Yankees will sweep the Angels the same way they swept the Twins. The Twinkees need to brush up on some basic base running skills.
Hopefully the Twins can figure out how to get beyond the ALDS.
Will Bill Smith do what it takes to put together a legitimate World Series contender?
Lots of discussion in New England about walking Hunter to pitch to Vlad the Impaler- a case of right decision, wrong result- same with the decision to start Gomez, although as you say there were some positives to outweigh the negative(s). It seems to me that everything breaks wrong against the Yankees- prime example was Kubel’s ball that went through Cano’s glove sheesh! I guess I have to stop obsessing about the unfairness of it all- but are people going to continue to attend as the skewing between the rich and poor clubs becomes more pronounced?
And just when I say to myself, you need to not be so hard on Punto…
And thanks for running the blog this year, Howard- it’s nice to have a place to vent where people aren’t sick of me. (yet)
Well, thanks for the post Howie, and thank you to all of the twins fans and the Metrodome for all of the memories. As for our team, there needs to be a shake up on this team of gigantic proportions. Move Cuddyer to third and either teach Gomez how to be a LF or get rid of him. Young and Span need to play everyday. Gardy (if back) needs to have a regular line up and teach the guys not to be scared when they play the high priced teams.
Yes the Punto baserunning was a rally killer but remember, in game 2 the Twins had the bases loaded with NO outs and STILL couldn’t bring anyone home. That inning very well could have ended up like most others. I’m not giving Punto a free pass but let’s all not put this loss on Punto’s shoulders. Plenty of blame to go around. Pavano pitched great. Too bad the bullpen couldn’t follow suit.
I am not a fan of the expressions “blame or fault”. It is never someone’s “fault” that the TEAM lost a game. Sure IF Punto doesn’t get thrown out there the game may have ended differently. Of course if Punto doesn’t make the throw home against Detroit there would not have been a game yesterday either. It is a team sport win or lose. My favorite example of a coach handling this was Rudy T coaching the Rockets and a complete blown call against the Lakers. When asked about it all he said was if one bad call was enough for his team to lose they did not deserve to win. If any of several dozen plays would have gone differently the outcome would have been different. Game 2 Gomez gets thrown out at 2nd. The TEAM stranded 17 base runners. One big base hit changes the game. Same with yesterday. It was a good year. If Morneau and Crede were healthy yesterday our lineup might have looked better. Of course if they had stayed healthy there is also the chance that the team would have finished 500 or worse.
It is too bad that the Twins fans on here don’t have the same class as their manager. Lets face it, you guys were swept because one of your big name players (Nathan) spit the bit in big spots. Had he not the Yankees would be no better than up 2-1. Joe Nathan is (I believe) the second highest paid reliever in the AL and an all-star.
Bush league comment by a bush league reporter in a bush league town. Sour grapes!
Cuddy at third would be a perfect fit….however, remember when he was the third baseman, things didn’t go to well at third or at the plate when he was there…
It was fun while it lasted.
Thanks, Howard, for a great season of blogging here and to the Twins for making it worthwhile to be here.
Can’t say I agree that a major “blowing up” of the team is necessary. Rather, there are (as usual) some positions that need to be improved. Smith showed signs with the midseason pick ups that there may be a change in philosophy about adding players from outside the organization. Wish I felt better about the FAs who will be available this year.
Regarding Punto… yeah he screwed the pooch on that play. I was as PO’d as anyone. But at least he was getting on base this series. If you’re looking for scapegoats, perhaps it might make more sense to look at some of the supposed studs who neither got on base nor drove anyone who DID get on base.
Here’s hoping that this experience got some of these guys over their “postseason jitters” and next season they’ll show more composure as a result.
I’m thinking that this series against the Yankees was lost on Friday night when we should have won but didn’t. The pitching last night between Pavanno and Pettite was great and we ended up losing a game that was winable if our bullpen had done their job. Punto’s base running mistake was a real rally killer and I’m wondering if Gardy throws him under the bus as he has so many other players this season, but no, it’s just one of those things. There are additions and subtractions that need to be made to this team in the coming months, but this last series doesn’t ruin the year for me. I’m totally impressed with the Twins and their September run to win the AL Central pennant - it was a great ride after an up and down season and I for one can wait for next year. Rest well in the off season, Twins, and let’s go out there in Target Field and make a big impression on the other teams next year.
I enjoyed the roller coaster ride but inevitably i puked again. The boys showed the Yankees they weren’t as overmatched as some people (Souhan)thought.
The 2009 season was a success and that was official after last Tuesday’s game. The playoffs were another disappointment.
This will mark the last of Ron Gardenhire’s free playoff passes. If it happens this way again, he will not return. You simply cannot continue to look overmatched time after time in the postseason, no matter who the opponent. If this was the result which was “expected,” then why compete in the first place?
The Twins need to strive for better in 2010. They cannot continue to field a lineup with no hitters 7 through 9. That needs to change. They also need to solidify the rotation and sign Joe Mauer (although not in that order–I would make signing Mauer a top priority).
Nick Punto had a heck of a series (except for that baserunning error last night), but he’s not a starter. Matt Tolbert showed grit late this season, but he’s not a starter. We can only hope Cuddyer comes back next year the same player he was here in 2009…that would be huge. Kubel’s late slumping is forgiven–big HRs by Kubel in the last games of the season helped put us in the playoffs to begin with.
But as for what was “expected”…I thought the Twins had a real shot against the Yanks. I didn’t “expect” to get swept. I didn’t “expect” our All-Star closer to blow a two-run save. And I certainly didn’t “expect” to kick away three leads.
Ron Gardenhire’s future as manager will be on the line next time the Twins find themselves in this position.
Not sure any of the myriad mistakes by the Twins mattered in the end. The Yankees reminded me of a good NBA team that allows a bad team to stick around through the first three quarters and then–when it matters–kick it into a gear that the other team just doesn’t have, such as the way that the Yankees responded immediately every time that the Twins scored. I suppose you can blame that on the Twins pitching, but it might be that the Yankees are just that good.
Thanks for all the entertainment this year Howard. No surprise they lost the series, and the way Gardy’s teams have performed in the post season, no surprise they were swept once again.
Plenty of issues with the performance this post season. Hopefully the FO and staff will take a good, long, hard look at the minor league and major league teaching, as this team just makes too many mistakes to overcome their lack of talent at some/many positions. Baserunning, throwing to the wrong base, unproffessional ABs, sliding into first….way too many “do the little things wrong” for this team this year (and last, frankly).
I shouldnt have laughed, but thought it was hilarious when Delmon took a foul ball to the pills. No man deserves a shot to the nards, but still had a good chuckle.
looked like a cat playing with a mouse. fun for a time and then bam, we’re done!
no way to defend puntos baserunning mistakes. reusse says he has a high baseball iq, the same guy who got picked off on the 3b to 1b move? he is and has been a poor base rinner, hustle sometimes gets confused with good.
Thanks Howard for providing the best Twins blog once again this year. While I’m disappointed with the final results, I also realize that this team would have needed to play perfect baseball to advance any further in the playoffs…which would have required a certain amount of magic. And it just didn’t happen.
I’m trying to remember the frustration of the 80’s, watching all those young players learn the game. It eventually led to the magic of ‘87, but not without years that were much worse than this one.
Thanks again Howard!
Good season Howard. Good perspective on a team that makes money, excites the homer fans, and totally disappoints the fans that know a little about baseball.
I loved Reusse’s article. It was almost like Gardy wrote it himself.
Punto slides into first (even after hurting himself doing it). He got picked off on the fake to 3rd, throw to first play (that doesn’t fool HS kids). I don’t get it, I don’t get it at all.
I usually hate field runners also, but I couldn’t help but cheer him on. Maybe it was the Bert jersey, the final Dome game (that’s the way it should go out), or the near escape. Fitting.
Jason,
I think its pretty ridiculous to put all the blame on Gardy for the Twins’ playoff losses. How could his coaching have changed Kubel’s lack of hitting? The baserunning blunders? Nathan coughing up the lead on Friday? They certainly had a chance to win the final two games of the series, which is as much as any manager can ask for, especially against a powerhouse team like the Yankees. I think most people outside of Minnestoat expected the Yankees to beat the snot out of the Twins, but they didn’t. I think the Twins players beat themselves, more than the Yankees beat them. Hopefully this experience will be a building block for next season.
Everyone just needs to let up on LNP. Yeah, he made a base running gaffe (that proved to not have any effect after our bullpen exploded). He also was hitting at .426 in the series and was a key reason why we were in games 1 and 2. Guy plays with his heart, and I’ll take that everyday.
Gardy (if back)
Hahahaha. Gardy should and probably will win Manager of the Year. Yeah, they’ll fire him after taking the Twins B squad (minus Morneau, minus Crede, minus a rotation) and winning the Central.
funny last week gardy was a moy, on his way to the hall of fame because his team had beat up on a bunch of really bad teams the last month. now they get beat 3-0 and its the players fault. which is it? gardy is great when they win but it’s never his fault when they lose?
be really nice if we could all take the credit but never any of the blame!
I rather enjoyed your piece Howard, until I got to the end. Kudos to the Twins for their late-season tenacity and gutsy play. The fan reaction to the PSA was not unexpected but bush league and dated nonetheless - talk about old news…. The idiot who ran on the field was simply that, an idiot. Quite a stretch to credit him with “trying to get Mariano Rivera’s arm to stiffen.” Has the cretin ever seen Rivera play?! You should have finished speaking your mind with your penultimate paragraph. Your choice for an ending is childish and whiny, at best. Way to make a “fan’s view” sound like petulant sour grapes. From posts I’ve read, most Twins fans are classy, knowledgeable and a positive reflection on their team. Focus on next season and stop projecting bad luck on the team that bested yours. Tip to fans - get rid of the white towels. They’re nearly as stupid as the rally monkey and thunder sticks and they’re no longer unique.
….key reason why we were in games 1 and 2
Games 2 and 3.
Some good thought s Howard! I disagree still with all you people who think outdoor baseball in minnesota is a good idea! Anyway you’ll all have to sit in the minnesota elements because I’m not going to any games unless it’s 75-80 degrees sunny with no bugs. Which means I’ll see maybe 1 game a year in person. The real question everyone who isn’t a Yankee or redsox fan should be asking is when is baseball going to implement a salary cap. The whole thing where ALL the good free agents play for a couple of teams and those certain teams have guys at the bottom of their batting order hitting 30 HR’s is just really old now and needs to stop. As good as the Twins played down the stretch everyone knew that the ideas of them plaing the Yanks was a joke. The yankees not only ruin baseball when they win but they also represent everything terrible about modern america. They are basically sports version of Goldman Sax….something for rich elitist swine to enjoy amongst themselves while they eat caviar and laugh about how mid-western bumpkins still think teams like Cleveland or Minnesota could ever compete with all the multi-millionaires that their precious yankees covet so.
Punto’s baserunning made me crazy, but as Jim Crikket points out, at least he was on base. More than can be said about a lot of our hitters. I’m as big of a Kubel supporter as there is, but come on 16, did nobody tell you that we beat Detroit and still had games to play?
The thing that absolutely drives me nuts about Punto though is copping out and citing the crowd as why he made that play.
Most crowds jump every time a fly ball of medium depth is hit. They groan when a 1-2 pitch from Joe Nathan in the 9th is called a ball, even if it’s a foot outside.
You’re a Major League baseball player, and you’ve got the third base coach and half the dugout with their hands in the air and the stop sign up. To call out the fans as the reason for your mistake is classless and stupid. The fact of the matter is you got overexcited and didn’t think. It’s the same as his hapless slides into first base or insisting on turning even the most routine of plays into something spectacular by never planting his feet and making a balanced throw (regardless of how much time he has).
This is a case of not thinking, and the blame should lie solely on Punto. To blame the 55,000 fans who showed up to live and die with your every action that game is infuriating to me, and is more unforgivable than any of the blunders made by the rest of the team. “The crowd got me…” what an absolute joke. He should be embarrassed for the play and for his excuse.
Thanks Howard. Another off season of people advocating why Delmon Young will be a future MVP while tearing down Cuddyer. I can’t wait.
Gardy is partially to blame for the bad baserunning. That stuff needs to be ingrained in the players’ heads by the coaching staff.
Nothing he could have done about Kubel and Nathan choking or the injuries, though.
One thing that sorely needs to be addressed for next season is the amount of MLB-ready talent at AAA. This team suffered greatly from not having anyone ready to step up from the minors.
Overall, the Twins did a great job of getting the most out of a tough season. While they didn’t suffer as many injuries as a lot of teams in #, they certainly were key. Being without your #3 and #4 hitters for a month and your #2 starter for 3 months is difficult to overcome. The late charge was a great ride and a testament to Gardy’s strenghts as a manager. Jason is right, at some point he will have to win the play-offs or face the heat, but now is not that time.
I was hoping the guy would have made it over the fence in center and started climbing up the “vampire” seats like a rock wall…..
Power hitting and bull pens win division titles- i rest my case.
Howard,
I don’t know if you saw any of the other signs like “A-Rod: http://www.drugfree.org/playhealthy” or “A-Rod: 33 million, Jeter: 21.6 million, paying off umps: Priceless” or “George Steinbrenner couldn’t pay us to be Yankees fans, but he’ll probably try.”
Since the bullpen and clutch hitting didn’t show up all series, it was nice to see that the fans did with major league quality creativity.
“Jason,
I think its pretty ridiculous to put all the blame on Gardy for the Twins’ playoff losses.”
ES16–
It starts at the top, my friend. The playoff losses are, of course, a small sample size of the overall makeup of a team’s season. However, part of what allows you to succeed in those situations is by “managing” the team throughout the season, heading into the playoffs.
I honestly did not believe the Twins–with all of their momentum heading into the postseason–were going to fold once they got there. I was wrong.
What Ron Gardenhire has right now is a team that “believes” it can win the AL Central in any given year. I think it has enough talent to win an AL Pennant and win it all. But they don’t “believe” that (at least not as it translates to their results on the field). Do you really think Joe Nathan entered that game Friday night thinking ‘this is all me…these Yankees are nothing’. Nope. He promply gave up two hits that erased a 2-run lead in the blink of an eye.
You know who I think best embodied that “not-scared-of-the-postseason” spirit during this series? Brian Duensing, Scott Baker, and Carl Pavano. That’s right, our three starters. Usually, that would be a recipe for success.
It’s the manager’s job to have his team ready to go in these situations and Gardy simply hasn’t done it in the postseason. So if you’re satisfied with winning the AL Central and nothing more, then you’re right, we’ve got the Manager of the Year.
I look forward to seeing if Gardy and the Twins can close the deal next time around.
I meant Nick Blackburn, not Baker, of course.
I fail to see why now is not that time for Gardenhire. Add another three losses and zero wins to his already embarrassing marks for the postseason and against the AL East.
Getting to the postseason in the face of adversity is great, but what team doesn’t?
The Angels saw a 22-year-old pitcher, their best prospect, tragically die a week into the season. They went without Kelvim Escobar again, and Ervin Santana was terrible. John Lackey missed the first month of the season. Vladimir Guerrero was hurt, and was a shell of his former self most of the season.
The Yankees didn’t have Alex Rodriguez for 28 games. Teixeira was pathetic in April. They closed out the season with Sergio Mitre and Chad Gaudin in their rotation. Joba Chamberlain looked lost and helpless on the mound.
The Red Sox lost Dice-K for the season more or less. Josh Beckett had a horrendous start and endured another terrible stretch later in the season. David Ortiz had one home run and 27 RBI through early June. Dustin Pedroia fell back down to Earth in a big way after his MVP season. Jed Lowrie went down for the year. Jason Bay slumped so hard in the middle months that the Sox may as well have had Marty Cordova out there in left field.
Manny got suspended and the Dodgers rotation fell apart. The Rockies fired their manager and were 13 games under .500 at one point. Etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah
Every team has to overcome adversity. Yet we praise Gardenhire for overcoming the same issues faced by every other contender?
People in Minnesota need to get over the thought that “Oh well little ol’ Minnesota made it to another ALDS” and that’s a success. Five division titles in eight years is great, and it’s good for the fans to expect to be playing baseball in early October, but at some point we should expect more.
Jason,
I thought Blackburn was the best at not being intimidated by the Yankees, followed closely by Pavano & Duensing. It looked to me like Baker was pitching “scared” but the others were great. I don’t know what’s up with Mijares but he pitched terrible during this series - couldn’t get anyone out. Last night’s performance by Pavanno was a preview of what we can expect from him in big games and I hope they can resign him. There are moves that need to be made during the off season and #1 should be signing Mauer, but right after that we should be looking at a quality #1 starter - Baker is not it!
I think Gardy somehow gets the team to win a good amoung of games in the regular season. I don’t know how, as I often wonder at his in game decisions, but he does. He deserves some credit for that. However, if he deserves some credit for that, he also deserves some blame for the horrible job they’ve done under him in the post season, doesn’t he?
He’s certainly not firable at this point. But, I doubt he’ll manage the way I’d like him to, so I need to just overcome my frustratino with him and enjoy the games….
waaah waaaah waaaahhh… I love the jealousy of teams that cant or wont spend like the Yankees.. lets see…. who lead the AL in attendance this season? hmmm The Yankees.. so should the Steinbrenner family spend 80 million on payroll and then pocket 200 million for themselves? how well would that play out?? Or maybe their should be revenue sharing so that I can keep paying a high price for a good seat just to keep your tickets affordable for you? We don’t mind paying high prices because 1) we all make a lot more money than you and 2) we know that our money will be spent on the team not go into the owners pockets.. Oh and one more thing.. How does a guy miss a month and increase his home run total from 9 to 28?? sounds to me like Mauer is on the Juice he should be tested.
MN Cat, what makes you think that about Pavano? He faced average to terrible offenses, after the Twins acquired him, and his ERA was 4.64 during that stretch. I’m willing to be wrong on this, but I don’t understand the love for the guy. Some might believe that he’s finally healthy, and he’ll be better next year, but I’m not sure wanting the same Pavano they got this year is a good thing (7 quality starts out of 12 in the regular season).
The only good thing about the Twins losing in three games is we don’t have to listen to that inane Chip Carey anymore. Joe Posnanski has a good rant about him and the other TBS announcers at his blog. http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/10/08/feeling-cranky/
Thanks Howard. What a frustrating end to a frustrating season. Sometimes fun, sometimes exciting, sometimes like watching a AAAA team run by a AAA manager.
2-16 in the last 18 post-season appearances? Yes, Gardy is not a bad manager and he deserves credit for this team making the end of the year run and pulling it out when we had all, well mostly all, written them off. Likewise, you just can’t take a team into the playoffs time and time again posting such a horrid record and not take some of the blame.
Well, there’s always next year and hope springs eternal. Hopefully, BS will finally do something to fill the glaring holes in the offseason.
Go Angels.
mike,
Gardy has earned 2010, no doubt about that. The “Manager of the Year” thing baffles me, considering our first five months of the season. Gardy was the “Manager of September,” which happened to be the most clutch month of the season.
And there’s a lot to be proud of from this 2009 season, don’t get me wrong. But the fact is Gardy, for whatever reason, has not had his team ready to compete in the postseason since his first postseason series he ever managed way back in 2002. Think about it, since then, they got throttled by Anaheim, throttled by the Yankees (twice), throttled by Oakland, and now throttled again by the Yankees (squandering three leads in three games). The Twins have not been competitive in these series.
I know Bobby Cox lasted a long time in Atlanta with a team that only cashed in one WS title in 12 playoff appearances (or something), but this is different. The Braves were usually competitive and they did get to the WS a couple times.
With Gardy, as much fun as he makes things in the regular season, at some point you have to take the next step. That’s why I think his next playoff series will be a critical one (and I say “next” with confidence the Twins will be back in the postseason soon).
2009 winning pct. against east; .312, west; .474, central, .647
2008 against east; .317, west; .486, central; .590
gardy is the manager of the year in the central division, not so much against the rest of the american league!!
Manager of the Year should go to a guy who did enough with his team in the regular season that they were confident enough to dispose of the Boston Red Sox in three games when playoffs began.
Jason,
You make it sound like the Twins vs. Yankees series was an evenly-matched series. It certainly wasn’t. You had the highest-paid roster in the major leagues against a patchwork of a Twins’ roster without its top run-producer. The Twins roster also included numerous young players who had never played in the playoffs before, against a team that has tons of playoff experience. Could the Twins have played better, of course. But the reason you thought they could have played better is because of the high level Gardy gets his teams to play at, despite what it looks like on paper.
We’ve now come full circle. Punto gives Gomez hitting lessons in exchange for Gomez giving Punto base running lessons.
Twins collect Division titles like A-Rod collect’s STD’s. Twins will have to re-make themselves in Target Field if they think they will be contenders in that outdoor ballpark. No more Metrodome choppers, balls lost in the lights and dive misses for triples that save the season. Let’s all hope that BS does not think or is content with the team at it’s present make-up as a true contender. Start with trading Joe Nathan to a national league team. This is risky but he still has value and maybe we can get a haul big enough to justify that risk. Besides who was Joe Nathan before he was the closer of the Twins? Same with Eddie G before him. Twins will find a replacement for that spot. There are to many holes not to trade Joe Nathan. Reusse suggested this and I agree with him.
Let’s go Torii!
ES16, why did they do so badly all the other playoff appearances with veterans?
Jason is right, the Angels manager is manager of the year.
ES16,
This “patchwork Twins roster without its top run-producer” went 17-4 before heading into the playoff series with the Yankees. Don’t tell me they were ill-equipped to win the series, much less a game or two. We also had our All-Star closer (the guy who Dick Bremer routinely dubs ‘the best closer in the game’) with a 2-run lead in the 9th inning of Game 2 and we had a 7th-inning lead in Game 3 and were one enormous baserunning gaffe away from tying up that game after we relinquished the lead.
The point is the Twins were not inferior…they just played like they were.
The Twins were inferior. No doubt.
Go up and down the roster, and find the spots where the Twins were better (and then look at how much better the Yankees were at some spots). This is a combo platter of players’ performance, managing, and the FO not giving Gardy any options on the bench (and pretty bad to mediocre starters at some spots).
Now I’m losing focus on the fact that the last month was entertaining…..so no more posts today.
MWW,
You mean veterans like Luis Rivas, Matt LeCroy, Denny Hocking, Lew Ford, Henry Blanco, Rondell White and Phil Nevin? Yeah, who couldn’t win in the playoffs with players of that caliber.
Jason,
Oh sorry, you’re right. Playing the team with the best record in baseball in the circus of the Yankee Stadium playoff atmosphere, against a team full of players with tons of playoff experience, was no different than the regular season games the Twins played down the stretch. Thanks for pointing that out. I’m really stupid to think there was difference between winning a regular season game in Kansas City and a playoff game at Yankee Stadium.
Take a breath, ES16…I’m not calling anyone stupid.
I believed the Twins could compete in this playoff series. I think that always has to be the mentality…that’s why you’re a playoff team to begin with. Take aways the payrolls…the Twins were in the playoffs because they were among baseballs best teams.
Now the Yankees were the favorites, for sure, and for good reason…but I don’t get this “it’s okay if we lose in the playoffs because we’re not supposed to win” mentality. It makes no sense. Given what we had to accomplish just to get there, I understand the feeling of ‘getting there is the real prize’ this season. But this is five straight Gardenhire postseasons…so all I’m saying is there should be accountability when number six rolls around.
ES16, you said they lost because they didn’t have veterans. Now you are saying it is about talent. I agree with your second post - it is about talent.
Plus, as for the “Yankees payroll” argument….we were 0-10 against this team here in 2009.
0-10. That’s unprecedented. No payroll argument can excuse that level of dominance. I’m pretty sure even Kansas City found a way to beat them a couple times.
The fans (in my section at least) were chanting A-Roid, not A-Rod.
It’s a wonder they didn’t play those steroid commercials every inning when almost half that Yankees lineup has admitted to or is under suspicion for using at some point.
Howard:
Thnx for a great blog this season. It was a great season!! I was hoping for a better playoff–but it is awfully hard to compete when other 3 AL teams have double or triple the payroll of the Twins.
Twins (tranlate to Smith and owners) must decide to increase payroll–starting with giving Mauer 15 million plus annual salary long-term deal ASAP. Get a #1 pitcher–Doc from Toronto, King Felix from Seattle–somebody–trade whatever you have to. Gardy has to give Span a position and keep him there (I vote for CF). Keep Orlando Cabrera (a postseason good luck charm) and Crede. If GoGo is gonna be part of the future send him to triple A for two months so he can learn the game.
Somebody earlier said put Cuddyer on 3B–that didnt work before and wont work now.
Enough rambling–good season.
DAM
The Twins gave us a good season with lots of excitement and I’m looking forward to 2010.
How about no more fire Gardy/Varva? Of course the playoffs are tough for the Twins, because few teams can compete with the payrolls of the Yanks, Bosox, LAA, Cubs, Chisox, Atlanta, & Philly. But the Twins gave it a good run. Yes, they didn’t play well during the ALDS, but Gardy can’t bat for Kubel or run the bases for Gomez and Punto. To say that these base running mistakes or lack of hitting result from Gardy’s or Varva’s failure to prepare the team is silly.
The Twins lost to a fantasy-type, all star team, but had the lead in every game. In the end, though, this ALDS series was the MLB traveling all stars barnstorming in the Midwest.
If the Yanks had to develop players instead of signing FAs developed by other teams or having the money to trade for superstars that other teams no longer can afford, then, for the 2009 Yankees’ starting rotation, substitute Hughes and Chamberlain for CC and Burnett. In the field, substitue Rumson for ARod, some unknown for Teixeira, some unknown for Matsui, and some other unknown for Damon.
It’s really surprising that MLB let the Yanks sign the top three FAs in the 2009 FA market. We’ll I’m a free market guy through-and-through, sports leagues aren’t about free market, because the largest markets always will get the best players. It doesn’t mean the largest markets always will win, but they, of course, will have a better chance to win.
This type of team is attractive to players. Why play in the sticks, when you can play on the traveling all stars team?
For all you Gardy haters!! All I can say is take all the ALDS you can take….what other manager can we get…..perfect example…TORRE gone in NY? Are you kidding me, he is amazing, Girardi is a fluke, he is lucky he is the yankee manager, anywehre else he would be gone. Anyone can manage an ALLSTAR team! So KEEP GARDY ASLONG AS OUR TEAM KEEPS IT’S DRIVE AND HEART!! I would love to win the AL Central every year, 5 out of 8 is pretty sweet!
A rod was a man about his past steriod use and stepped up to admit it.. unlike the other 100 names on that list.. even David “Big Poopy” Ortiz fed us a line of BS claiming he didnt know how he tested positive.. If anyone should be under suspicion it should be Mauer who went from 9 HR to 28 and missed a month.. if that’s not a Juicer then no one is.
Punto’s mistake also involves Ullger who was over half way down the baseline. When Punto is going all out how is he supposed to see Ullger when he’s so far down the line?
I’m still pleased as punch that we got to talk Twins baseball in October and that we actually stayed with the Yanks. Hell, we led them all three games, and while we lost painfully, I actually was heartened that we were playing at (or above) their level. I hope that gives Mauer enough confidence in the Twins to stick with us and sign a long-term deal.
A division title and a close playoff series (despite the sweep) sure looks a lot better than a 2nd place finish and no postseason at all.
And despite Punto’s baserunning error, he had one hell of a series (and a last two months). Hooray for that.
“The Twins lost to a fantasy-type, all star team”
One that hasn’t won a championship since 2000 and didn’t even make the playoffs last year, finishing behind the Tampa Bay Rays.
I’m sorry, but this “What do you expect, we had no chance” mentality really bothers me. If I really felt that way then I wouldn’t be a Twins fan. Take nothing away from the joys we got here in 2009…but this postseason routine is not acceptable. I wish more fans would agree.
Plus, if you really feel we had no shot and got what we expected, then how can you honestly go with “We’ll get ‘em next time around?”
Funniest post mortem article I’ve read today is in the NYTimes. Columnist claims a Yankee-Dodger WS is what MLB needs to give it a classic showdown and help it put all the steroid controversy behind it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/sports/baseball/12rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=sports
“…it’s a Yankees-Dodgers World Series that could take the game back to its roots at a time when baseball desperately needs to recover a portion of the trust, if not the innocence, that it has lost in the steroid era.”
Seriously? The guy says a match up between two teams who’s biggest stars are steroid cheats is what baseball needs to put steroids behind it.
I’m still laughing.
Dennis, my friend, where do we begin…
A Rod didn’t admit to anything until Selena Roberts announced she was coming out with a book…he played it the same way many other who got caught played it…deny until it was in their PR benefit to admit.
As for Mauer, I’m not going to tell you I know he’s clean like a lot of fans here probably will, but it’s not fair to group him in with known steroid users at this point.
Jason says:
October 12th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Manager of the Year should go to a guy who did enough with his team in the regular season that they were confident enough to dispose of the Boston Red Sox in three games when playoffs began.
Jason, I’m not sure you watched the same Twins team this year that everyone else did. You’ve just screwed up your entire argument, by the way. You said that the Twins had the ability to beat the Yankees. Therefore, I guess the manager did his job, didn’t he?
Did you take a look at the last three batters in the Twins lineup compared to the Yankees? Please, PLEASE, PLEASE give me another manager’s name would could find a way to win games with Morales, Harris and Punto as the last three hitters in the lineup. I’m waiting….
Royals went 2-4 against the Yankees in 2009.
So who do we hold responsible for the 6-18 playoff record since 2002?
I agree with Jason-someone has to be held accountable at some point, and there few people who have been around for this entire run from 2002 on.
Jason
Until upper-management gives Gardy a team that is worthy of the playoffs, the fact that Gardy keeps this team competitive makes him a top manager. If Torii was in center and/or Santana was on the mound, that’s a different story. The lineup or rotation is completely different. But because that’s not the case, this playoff performance can not condemn Gardy to being let go.
I’m just as frustrated as you, but please give me an example of another team that made the playoffs with 60% of their rotation in turmoil, a middle of the bullpen that was questionable all year, no good shortstop for 5 months of the season, losing the former MVP on a playoff stretch run, and being without the franchise batting champion for the first month of the season.
If you can show that the Rockies, Phillies, Dodgers, Cardinals, Red Sox or Rockies went through anything even close to this, then yes, Gardy should have done better this year. Since that’s not the case, get off Gardy’s case.
“PLEASE, PLEASE give me another manager’s name would could find a way to win games with Morales, Harris and Punto as the last three hitters in the lineup. I’m waiting….”
Hmm…we could go on all day with this point, but I’ll throw out a couple things:
1. Other managers would’ve moved away from Punto as a starter
2. Other managers might have identified Morales as being a better option than Redmond back in June when he was on fire, not in late September, when he was finally being thrown into everday MLB action
Look, I don’t want to turn this into a Gardy ripfest…I have a signed Gardy ball in my car for crying out! At some point it stops being coincidence is all I’m saying. Leyland was able to make it to the WS in this division this decade and Guillen was able to win it all in 2005. I don’t think one nice playoff run is too much to ask for, and as Shaun in Chicago points out, the one common denominator is Gardy and his staff.
As a lifelong Yankee fan, I had to comment on how much class Gardenhire has to talk so highly about a team that just swept his own. I was truly impressed.
Now, for Howard, you write a good article but end it by contradicting yourself. Earlier in the post you wrote “Face it, kids. The Yankees are the best team in baseball. They won 103 games and pretty much ran off with the best division in baseball.” So why do you assume the Angels will beat them as indicated in your last sentence? Nobody likes a sore loser.
Jason,
Please develop reading comprehension skills; I didn’t post that the Twins didn’t have a chance against the Yanks. But if you don’t believe that the odds are against the Twins when playing such a team, then I’ll bet you’d pony up $6 for a cup of coffee at Yankee Stadium.
But, hey, I appreciate the fact that you comment on almost every one of my blogs. I know that you’re my secret admirer.
Love and kisses, little Jas.
Sincerely, JTF
Jason its also not fair to group “more than half the yankees” as steroid users as some one else said in an earlier post. A rod admitted his mistake and apparently hasn’t tested positive in 6 years. and those steroid years came before he even came to the Yankees. Without that entire list comming out A Rod was unjustly vilified, hes by far not the only one to use but in reality besides Big Poopy and Manny, no one else has had to admit (or claim ignorance) for their mistakes. ARod could have easily claimed Selena was lying.. hell… no one even bought her rag.
“If Torii was in center and/or Santana was on the mound, that’s a different story.”
In 2003, 2004, and 2006, Torii was in center and Santana was on the mound…result was the same.
Again, all I’m saying is you don’t have to feel guilty as a Twins fan to expect to win a playoff series or two.
Jason:
Who exactly would you put in instead of Punto? As I recall, Casilla had to be sent down twice and Tolbert is AWFUL at the plate. When you don’t have any other options, that becomes a management problem, not a managerial problem.
Maybe Gardy should have played Morales earlier in the season, but of all the things this year, do you really think that would have made a huge difference? Morales looked like he was going to pee his pants in New York. What would he have done in the regular-season series in NY? Probably the same, because he’s a rookie, and this is the situation that Gardy is in.
Look at the Tigers’ roster when they went to the WS, and the White Sox’ when they won it all….and tell me if our roster was even close to equal to those this year…..like I said, I’m frustrated too, but until there’s a Twins team that is built to win, it’s hard to argue with Gardy’s results.
Joe the First,
I said it was a “mentality”…it wasn’t a direct quote.
I’ll pass on the kisses, but I appreciate the sentiment.
I’m going to miss the Dome. Great memories and I was always guaranteed to see a game when I made the long trip to the Cities. I knew our chances against the Yankees were slim with a depleted lineup, but I’m disappointed we didn’t play better. However, even though we lost I’m glad I pull for a team that doesn’t have a steriod taking, lying, cheater at 3rd base. I’m glad we don’t have a 1st baseman that elects to drink until six in the morning with the opposing team before the biggest game of the season and I’m glad I don’t pull for a team that suspends its right fielder with two weeks to go in the season and sends him home. Win or lose, I’m proud to say my baseball team is the MINNESOTA TWINS!
Gerry,
I don’t recall those Tigers/White Sox teams having the batting champion, former MVPs, or All-Star closers (Bobby Jenks wasn’t an All-Star until 2006) on their rosters either.
“but this postseason routine is not acceptable. I wish more fans would agree.”
then talk to cubs fans. or mariners fans. or brewers fans. or nationals, padres, astros and rockies fans. etc., etc., etc …
world series titles in 25 years? twins two, red sox two (mets one). the twins will beat the yankees next year, or they won’t (just like the red sox couldn’t beat the yankees in big games until they did).
major league baseball is entertainment and the 2009 season was very entertaining.
here’s hoping 2010 is as good or better.
Jas,
I’m sorry; I didn’t realize that you are an expert in mind reading & reading-btween-the-lines. Forgive me for failing to recognizes your prodigious skills in these areas.
Given the makeup of the Twins, I would be pretty happy if the Twins win the division every year for the next 40 years. I would expect them to win a couple WS and advance a dozen other times before losing. There are 8 other teams in the playoffs every year so this is not a 1/8 result because the Twins are not in that highest tier of talent. They need a little magic and breaks to go their way to win against those teams. Sometimes that happens. This year it did not. Everyone knows the Yankees have the most talent in baseball so it shouldn’t be a surprise when they sweep anyone (even the Twins). I still believe the Twins are capable of beating them, but the Yankees have the most talent in the majors so it shouldn’t be a surprise when we do not.
Thank you, Mickey, It’s mental, not Mantle. Seriously, a good, pithy, & succinct analysis of one year’s worth of blogging.
GO TWINS! And, please, at least make an attempt for Zimmerman and one FA starter, but I’m not too big on FAs.
Does anybody really believe that CC, Teixeira, & Burnett signed with the Yanks, because they love the Yanks, NY, and the fans and want to be part of the history? Or did money influence their decisions? This is not an IQ test.
Criminalities, another good perspective. And we gave’em a run. As for Nathan? Tired? 4.6 Sept. ERA. Yank phobia, typical of most Mets fans? Who knows?
(Why Criminalities? Are you residing at Stillwater?)
Exactly Mickey, after this season every team but one will be talking about how their team doesn’t have what it takes to win it all. Even the Yankees who are clearly the best team in baseball will have fans saying they don’t have the heart or talent or whatever if they don’t win it all. Only one team wins it all every year and they need countless things to go their way in order for it to happen. Yankees just need fewer things to go their way and the Twins (and every other team) need more, but it happens. It’s baseball.
Jason:
While I agree the 2006 Tigers’ offense that year wasn’t great, they did have the best defensive catcher in baseball (I-Rod) who could still hit, a powerful Magglio Ordonez, and their starting pitching staff was probably the best in baseball (Bonderman-14 wins, 4.08 ERA, Robertson-13 wins 3.84 ERA, Rogers-17 wins 3.84, Verlander-17, 3.63. Their bullpen was also the best in baseball that year.
The 2005 White Sox had this batting order:
Podsednik, Iguchi, Thomas, Konerko, Rowand, Dye, Pierzynski, Crede, Uribe. Startiing pitchers: Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Contreras, Hernandez
If you can tell me with a straight face that the Twins have a lineup that comes anywhere near that, I’d love to see you try.
Fact is, the overachieve teams like the ‘87 Twins come around once every 30 years. Should we expect more from the Twins? Absolutely. Is this the time? No. Unless management is ready to put the money down.
While I normally enjoy your post, this one, especially, made my day. Thanks, Howard!
But the reason you thought they could have played better is because of the high level Gardy gets his teams to play at…
Really? “High level”? Didn’t see much of that the last four days. Or the last three times in the playoffs. Or from mid-April to mid-September this year. Or just about any April in recent memory.
Why does Gardenhire not choose to get his team to play at a high level all year? Oh, right. Injuries. Well, the Twins were lousy before any player was lost to injury and they played their BEST baseball after losing Morneau and Crede. Perkins “injury” was a blessing as it got him out of the lineup.
I’m ready to look forward to next year. With just a few improvements, the Twins could go from being a marginal playoff team to an elite contender. Here’s what I propose:
1. Re-sign Pavano. He isn’t an ace, but he is a decent pitcher who seemed to have a calming effect on the other starters. Kind of like Rick Reed, or Livan Hernandez if Hernandez wasn’t terrible.
2. Go after Erik Bedard. I think he is the best left-handed starter available on the market, and there is a chance he won’t be a class A free agent.
3. Get a second baseman. Nick Punto is a great backup. He is not a starter. Brian Roberts of the Orioles is a starter, and a good one. And he is the subject of constant trade rumors. Knowing the Orioles pitching woes, I’m sure that the Twins could send a couple of Manship/Swarzak type prospects to get him. If not, maybe Brandon Phillips of Cincinnati is available?
I think that should be all the Twins need to be a 100 win team next year.
Joe, when I was a kid I read some book (I think it was called “Ghost of Dibble Hollow”) where the protagonist said “criminilities” as a swear word. Not as succint as dang or crap or good grief but when I miss a putt or Nathan blows a save it is the word that pops up in my mind.
I googled it by the way and it is not a real word.
The bottom line is this. Get a good frickin 3rd baseman (not a one-year band-aid with a bad back), get a decent pitcher (not Livan Hernandez) and if you can, get a solid second baseman (although I don’t think they’ll be able to do that).
If you did those things, and guys return healthy, then the Twins fans should have expectations to make it to the ALCS and beyond. Until that happens, I’m very satisfied with the work Gardy has done. And all you Gardy naysayers, who exactly would you replace Gardy with? Who would ever accept the job?
Joe the First, I like that Zimmerman idea. Don’t know if they could pull him away from Washington, but boy would he look good in a Twins uniform.
I AM a disappointed baseball fan today, Monday, looking outside at the bleepin’ snow. Tho’ it is peaceful and does cover up the dying flower garden in the backyard.
Twins are a good team, not a great team. Central division is a collection of good teams, not great teams.
No one can deny that more often than not the team with the 25 plus homerun/player line up is likely to put down the scrappy, patched together team such as the Twins. Occasionally this is not true, ….
Perhaps if the Twins played PERFECT we woulda hada shot. Homeruns by the opposition put us away as well as our misplays, our less than perfect pitching, etc.
$$$ and what is spent on each team is an issue. Of course I also know that the owners of the Twins are one of the wealthiest in baseball. Twins attendance is in the top 5 in the AL. So we cannot be considered small market.
Who argues for payroll maximums and who do we argue to? Or do we loudly complain to the Pohlad boys to stop being so cheap especially in light of the new stadium for them to, now, have their team play in. I assume they made some $$ on this past season of high attendance.
Sincerely,
Long time Twins fan, “Barney”
And all you Gardy naysayers, who exactly would you replace Gardy with? Who would ever accept the job?
first question: I don’t know. Maybe some unheralded third base coach on some team. Like Gardenhire was when he was picked to take over from Tom Kelly.
second quetion: See answer to first question.
Honestly, if I were looking for a new manager, I’d do what NFL teams do. Start with the two or three best head coaches in football and pull off one of his assistants.
How many Mike Holmgren and Bill Walsh form assistants went on to success as head coaches.
Go interview someone from Joe Torre or Tony LaRussa’s staff.
p.s. the young gals, near the Dome, selling the t-shirts:
“Even Jesus hates the Yankees” gave us a pleasurable chuckle before the bloody game began on Sun.
LT in NY: Just because the Yankees are the best team is baseball doesn’t mean I’ll root for ‘em — or even think they’ll win. You should understand that, I’d think, having watched your team lose in the World Series to Arizona and Florida during this millennium. Your team is excellent and handles itself well. Still ain’t rooting for ‘em.
Mauer, Steroids? Where did that come from? Is it him or Cuddyer that saves every bottle/box of everything that goes into their system between tests, in case a positive shows up (honestly can’t remember)?
Gerry, in 06 the Twins won the division that year over the Tigers had a winning record against the A’s and were 16-2 in interleague play and finished the reular season with 96 wins after a slow start I can tell you with a straight face that the Twins had as good a chance as any of winning that year. See comment above about having to be lucky in the playoffs. Tigers and White Sox had essentially the same teams the years before and after they won it all and yet didn’t even make the playoffs. This is baseball. It has so many physical and mental aspects to it that it is impossible to predict which makes it fun. 162 game year is a long time and the best team will win. The next year might have exactly the same makeup of teams but another team might end up best.
Not to say the Twins shouldn’t add talent but the results are mutually exclusive. Example, staying patt, the 2010 Twins have a 25-1 against odds of winning it all. If they add Greinke and A-Rod they have 10-1 odds against of winning it all. If the version that stayed patt defies odds and wins it all, that doesn’t mean that if they had added A-Rodd and Greinke they would have won it all also. Kind of goes with my theory that if the 87 Twins had Sandberg instead of Lombo they would wouldn’t have won it all even though they would have had a better chande to do so.
No surprise seeing the Yanks win considering their top 3 players make $9 million more then the entire Twins payroll…. Whats wrong with this picture?
Howard, I love your blog, but I think you blew the call on Punto’s baserunning. Maybe I saw a different replay, but it looked to in now way to be Punto’s fault. The play was entirely behind him, and unless he has eyes in the back of his head, there’s no way for him to know what’s happening. It’s up to the third base coach to assess and make a signal. Ulger knew before Punto reached third base that Jeter had the ball, yet Punto was a third or more toward home plate before Ulger raised his hands a little bit to make a low key stop sign. He should have had his hands in the air and yelling, “STOP NICKY STOP” when Punto was reaching third base, not wait until he was going full steam toward home, and then just a small cool gesture of a sign. Just my opinion, but Punto has nothing to feel bad about. It was Ulger who blew it. I think maybe we’re thinking back to Gomez, who really did make a terrible baserunning error, and seeing Punto the same way. But no way that was Punto’s fault. IMHO.
Walter Johnson:
You mean Larry Bowa….or Don Mattingly….or Mariano Duncan…..hmmm…..Willie Randolph was also a former Torre staffer, so that worked out pretty well. From La Russa’s staff we could go with Hal MacRae or Jose Oquendo or Dave Duncan…..
Do any of those sound like good options?
Sorry about that first sentence. Why doesn’t my spacing in the box show up on my post? Why don’t my paragragh breaks show? Anyone know?
In Football their major revenue source is TV money so its easy to split the pie and have a salary cap… the money made from the people in the seats doesnt impact their bottom line. In Baseball when the money comes from the paying fan, how can you expect to have a fan base like the Yankees pay in so that the small market teams have an equal payroll… Its just not going to happen, then the big market teams will begin to lose major revenue and the sport dies a quick death. Large market cities are not going to support their team if the money they pay doesn’t go to their teams effort on the field. Here in NY I have to pay a cable bill of $140 bucks a month just to watch the Yanks on TV. I’m willing to do that because i know i have a good product to see, one that commits to win. If what someone said is true and your owner is that rich.. then spend your friggin money and put a winning team on the field. Or be smart Twins fans and stop going to the games until he does make the effort to compete.
Gerry,
So what happened in 2006 when Gardy had the batting champ, MVP, and Cy Young?
The offense went stone cold (the Twins M.O).
Gerry, you asked what other good teams faced adversity like the Twins:
The angels:
1. let their closer leave before the year
2. had a starting pitcher die during the season
3. Lost two thirds of their OF to injury for more than a month and a half
4. lost three more starting pitchers to injury during the season (one for the year early in the year)
And, they won 97 games, 2nd most in baseball.
Um, Dennis?
Alex Rodriguez is a character-free coward. He got caught. He admitted getting caught. He didn’t come forward. He was dragged out of his rathole.
Helluva ballplayer though.
Criminillities, settle down. My point was, a guy Jason suggested that since the Twins lost this year in the playoffs, they should let Gardy go. I was merely trying to point out that those two teams were much better top-to-bottom than the Twins. Until management gives Gardy better tools, I’m not ready to send him out of here.
If Hanky Steinbrenner spent less money on players, maybe your cable bill would go down, Dennis. And maybe those embarrassing empty seats in the new stadium would fill up with some fat New York fannies. My, isn’t that Steinbrenner guy a generous, stand-up guy.
Helluva ballclub though.
n Baseball when the money comes from the paying fan, how can you expect to have a fan base like the Yankees pay in so that the small market teams have an equal payroll…
1) Baseball already does this. Marlins haven’t “paid” a majority of their payroll in quite a while. Big market teams are taxed when they go over spending limits and that money is distributed to smaller markets.
2) All sports money comes, one way or another from the “paying fan”. Baseball’s large market teams do not make payroll from attendance. NY Yankee’s attandence for 2009 ~$2M and payroll was $200M–so ticket prices would have had to average $100 a seat just to make pay roll, not including up keep, FO, travel, a $1.5B stadium, etc. NY Yankees, for example, make a bundle of the television, YES network, merchandising, etc.
mike wants wins,
check who they had fill the gaps, and get back to me….The angels weren’t forced to play a guy hitting a career .230 at second, a guy hitting .240 in center for much of the season, and 2-3 rookies filling the gaps in the rotation.
As you recall, the Angels rotation returned healthy for most of the season, and they also traded for a great pitcher in Kazmir.
So sorry, the situations are not the same.
~$2M and payroll was $200M
attendance was ~2M not dollars
I’m sorry but this series loss was an embarrassing display by the Twins. Not so much the first game, but the last two definitely were winnable games if not for the Twins suddenly forgetting what “Twins baseball” is. *That* is what’s embarrassing.
I’m happy about the ride we were taken on these last few weeks, but it shouldn’t have ended like this. I didn’t expect a series win, but I also didn’t expect the Twins to give a sweep away the way they did. While they kept the games close, they could have and, more importantly, should have played better baseball when they needed it these last two games. That’s what I expected from them, and that’s what I’m most disappointed about. The Yankees are a great team this year, and credit to them for doing what they did to the Twins this entire season, but there’s a lot of blame on the Twins’ plates.
Gardy wanted Punto on the roster….so don’t even try that one on me. He wants that guy in the lineup every day - he said that much at the end of the year. So, his choice to have a guy hitting .240 at 2nd.
The Angels overcame as much or more adversity, and won more games. That’s my opinion, but others can disagree.
Kazmir sucked this year with the Rays, if he was better with the Angels….how did that happen?
WJ: “…do what NFL teams do. Start with the two or three best head coaches in football and pull off one of his assistants.”
Yeah.. like that Les Steckel guy that was Bud Grant’s assistant!
Howard: “Your team (Yankees) is excellent and handles itself well. Still ain’t rooting for ‘em.”
Me either. Unless of course, you mean “rooting for the Yankees… and their owner… and all their wealthy fans (the only ones who can afford to see a game in their excessive abomination of a stadium… to be sucked under by a giant sinkhole and washed out in to the ocean.”
Then, count me in.
Dennis,
The Pohlads are rich, but they would go broke fast trying to match the Yanks payroll. Also, the Yanks draw in a considerable amount of ad revenue, in addition to the YES network. What’s more, the Steinbrenners make a very healthy return on the Yanks, so it’s not as though they put it all back into the team. It’s just that the actual, aggregate numbers are so big that signing big name players is no problem.
Case in point. Most teams couldn’t have afforded Matsui, but because so many Japanese companies want to advertise in the NYC market area for Japanese products sold in US and also since many Japanese know the Yanks (Japanese are well known for being carnivorous consumers of top-of-the shelf consumer products) as a top product, the ad revenue from the Japanese companies’ advertising provided a substantial portion of Matsui’s salary.
As for FAs, I don’t want the Twins to sign big named ones every year and end up with a team of mercenaries. Do you really believe that w/o the money, CC, Teixeira, and Burnett wanted to play for the Yanks because they love the team, the City, and the fans and want to be part of the history?
The Yanks are just the traveling all stars, but they won’t win every year. You may boast of the Yanks’ 26 WS wins, but 20 of them came from 1923 - 1963. Since 1964, the Yanks really haven’t done that much better than several other teams. Heck, the Twins have two WS wins in that period and aren’t that far behind the Yanks in post season appearances since 1964. Yet, the Yanks payroll always has dwarfed the Twins’ and most other teams’ payrolls.
As I wrote, I just can’t root for FAs and can’t stand the phony hoopla that goes with such signings, including the Twins’ signing of Crede, but at least the Crede signing was a fill in, not a re-make of the pitching staff and etc.
Take away CC, Burnett, Teixeira, ARod, Damon, and Matsui and the Yanks would struggle against the Royals. The Yanks don’t build anything; they just buy things. Kind of a parable of what happened to US manufacturing jobs.
blakep: “…ticket prices would have had to average $100 a seat just to make pay roll”
Go check it out, blakep, and I’d be willing to bet the average ticket price at Yankee Stadium was at least $100 per… especially to start the season before they found they had no takers for their premium seats and slashed prices to merely the obscene level, from outragiously obscene where they started.
Yankee home attendance for 2009 was 3.7 million which divides up to $55 a ticket. and I’m sure that the average ticket price in the stadium was way higher than that. I had seats in fair territory this season for $120 a ticket face value. Yes they pay a luxury tax and yes they make money off the YES network but again… if the team sucks the Yes network does’nt make money because its on a pay tier on our cable systems and many would drop the service if the product sucks. And yes they make money from merchandising… but again if you have a poor product on the field no one is buying your stuff.. I don’t see a lot of Washington Nationals shirts or hats in the malls.. Hell I didnt see any of them in Washington. It all comes back to putting a good product on the field. You need to spend money to make money. I also think it sucks that the Yanks pay a luxury tax to owners that just pocket the Yanks money. They should at least be required to spend that money on the field. And maybe I should mention how much money the teams make when the Yankees come to town… in Tampa they are lucky to have 10,000 in the seats when the yanks are in town they draw 45,000 so that’s 35,000 X 9 home games = 315,000 more fannies in the seats… and the other 71 games they draw 710,000.. seems like the Rays are making alot of money off the Yankees…
Considering how improbable this year was, I’m going to make a statement I’m sure is going to make many people mad:
I’ve found too many Twins fans to be finicky and cynical.
Do you understand how lucky you have it? Would you rather be fans of: Seattle, Oakland, Kansas City, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Florida, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Toronto, Houston, Texas, Cincinnati, New York Mets, Chicago Cubs or San Diego?
Get the picture? If I had a choice of being in contention every year for 14 years and one of those years winning a title, or going 14 years without the playoffs and in year 15 winning the world series, I’ll take the first option every time.
Be happy for what you have, because there are ALOT of fans who don’t have a solid organization that can develop great minor league players.
The Yankee fans pay through the nose to put on the field a team of superstars. But you can be sure that the Steinbrenners ain’t hurting even though many of its fans struggle to afford a game. And yes, the Yanks do have more corporate season ticket holders than many, if not most, other teams, because so many corps are HQ’d in NYC.
On the other hand, MN has some of the world’s largest and profitable companies and it’d be nice to see them buy more tix.
People whine about Kubel, and so do I, but thats what he is, a streaky hitter who has hot periods and cold periods. These are the kind of players we have bought for this team. The Yankees have streaky hitters too but when you have decent players up and down the line up when one position is down the other is up. The Twins have no room for error
mike wants wins:
Do you HONESTLY think that if Gardy had the option of putting another guy out there he wouldn’t do it because he likes Punto? As you recall Casilla was there to start the season and got sent down twice. Gardy would be pleased as punch to have Punto as a utility infielder bench option, and a better player out there, and if you can’t see that you’ve got a chip on your shoulder and aren’t being objective.
I’m not saying the Angels didn’t overcome great adversity, I’m saying that they were much better equipped to fill the gaps than the Twins.
all of this “greedy NY Yankee” bashing is misplaced and hypocritical
we have the richest owner group in MLB!
we should be holding Pohlad family accountable for payroll dropping 20M from it’s high
Yankee’s also draft much better then Twins Jeter,Cano,Melky,Pettite,Posada,Rivera,Coke,Hughes,Chamberlin,Matsui - all drafted or signed as undrafted free agent
Angels DH-Vlad Guerrero
Twins DH-Jose Morales
that’s all I have to say.
I’m a big disagreer to the moral victory that “at least we won the division.” Getting very tired of not being able to advance any farther in the playoffs.
But, I will say this year with Slowey, Morneau (and to a lesser degree, Crede) out - this WAS a moral victory season. Next year must be different as our core players hit their prime and must be surrounded by a an overall better cast of talent.
A new stadium in 32 degrees and “wintry mix” for 2 months of the season will not suffice.
Players the Twins drafted:
Baker, Slowey, Deunsing, Crain, Span, Cuddeyer, Kubel, Morneau, Mauer, Matt Guerrier (I think), Blackburn,
Players the Twins traded for:
Young, Gomez, Punto, OCab, Pavano, Nathan, Rauch, Mahay, Liriano, Harris, Casilla,
Players the Twins signed:
Crede, Redmond,
I may have missed a player here and there. So, half the OF, more than half the INF were not drafted by the Twins. About half the overall team was. I think it is a myth that they drafted and developed this whole team.
Either Gardy believes it, or he lied when he said it after game 163.
As far as I’m concerned, starting this offseason it’s put-up or shut up time for Twins management.
Step 1: Sign Mauer this offseason
Step 2: 2010 offseason, start opening the pocketbooks and fill in the needed gaps with good free-agents or make some trades to acquire talent.
I’d like to see them sign some guys this offseason, but the free-agent pool doesn’t look too promising.
Looked it up… the Yankees average NON-PREMIUM ticket was $72. Their average PREMIUM ticket was $510.
I do have to admit though, that all those empty blue seats behind home plate at least make a nice backdrop for the CF camera. Nobody moving around back there to distract from the hitter.
Oh… and if you haven’t read the ESPN Outside the Lines article on Yankee Stadium yet, make a point to do so. Funny stuff… if reading about how sickening sports owners try and fail to wring every last dollar out of their fan base to the point of making it impossible for those fans to attend a game is something you find amusing.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=091005yankeestickets
Baseball as an institution is broken, but should it be fixed?
After watching the Twins compete against the Yankees, its clear that it wasn’t a fair fight. With all the star power that the Yankees have, should we expect the Twins or other small market teams to be able to beat them? Its ceratinly not that it can’t happen, but the likelihood is very low.
I’ve read lots of posts suggesting a line-up for the Twins in 2010 with names like Figgins, Abreu, and Bedard. Are these the free agent left-overs after teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, and Angels and taken their picks? Do we really expect that the Twins will spend significantly more than the $65-70mm they have been spending? Or, is the thought that these guys will come relatively cheaply. Either way, these additions can’t compare to adding Texiera, Burnett, and Sabathia (not considering the existing slate of high-dollar rosterees).
However, can you blame the Yankees? Based on the existing structure, they are well within their rights to spend the way they do. They have no reason to be a sympathetic charity case.
And, can you blame MLB? The Yankees (and other large market teams) clearly draw a broader audience to the games. And, like professional wrestling, the Yankees are perennial villians. Many people, myself included, watch Yankees games in hopes we’ll get to see them lose.
In addition to the audience draw, converting MLB to a revenue share/salary cap model would be expensive for someone. You don’t think the Yankees are going to give away their money for free, do you? So, who’s going to foot the bill to buy out the Yankees revenues to put them into a common pool?
So, for MLB, is the Yankee situation really that bad?
As much as I prefer the equity of the NFL, NBA, and NHL systems, the competitive disparity of the MLB is only really bad for the fans of the small market teams. And the thing is, we apparently don’t care. We keep watching — both our beloved Twins and the Yankees, even after they beat us. Are we really not going watch the Angels-Yankees series in hopes of seeing Torii Hunter hit a three-run walk-off homerun to win the series?
[That reminds me, the Yankees ($208mm) are such “villians” that they even make us feel sorry for Red Sox ($122mm) and the Angels ($119mm) — both teams that spent nearly 2x what the Twins did ($68mm).]
As much as I would love to see MLB institute revenue sharing and a salary cap, I just can’t see the situation being resolved. The parties that have the power to make the decisions don’t have incentives to make the changes. Unless the fans ACTED differently by not watching and not attending games (enough of the complaining — stop watching if you don’t like it), the current structure works (makes money) for those who care.
Go Angels! Go NL champ! Somebody beat the Yankees! I’m almost as passionate about that as I would be if the Twins had won.
Small club Twins fans vs. Big Market Yankee fans will have this conversation until they’re blue in the face, and guess what…We’re all right. Yankees pay that much because they can and (face it) we would too. Small market, cannot and stay afloat. The point is, whatever side of the argument you’re on, it’s bad for baseball. No one, outside of Boston and New York, wants to see the same 5 teams year in and year out. If the economics continue they way they have been for the last couple decades, there will be 5 teams, that play 162 games against each other, and no one will care. Small market economics cannot survive against the Yankees and the Yankees cannot survive without the Twins, Marlins, Indians, Royals, etc.
mike wants wins, what the heck else is he supposed to say? there is NO OTHER OPTION! Listen, I’m not a Punto fan at all, but there was NO OTHER OPTION! If they didn’t acquire OCab, they would have been forced to put Punto AND Casilla out on the field at the same time….yikes!
Oh, I agree he had no other option, but I think that is because he wanted that option. I truly believe he’s why they signed Punto to a contract extension and paid him starter money. I truly believe he likes playing him (unless given an over-ridingly obvious alternative).
If there was no other option, that has to be on the front office, and their inability to draft and develop players at a sufficient rate to compete if they refuse to sign legit FAs to fill in gaps (or to trade for guys in their prime, not prospects or has beens).
blakep, yes, it’s a symbiotic, parasitic relationship. But, I enjoy following it.
Mike Wants: Sheesh, that moniker says it all. I believe that you’ve posted your development theory in other posts. My reply then was that many of the players signed by the Twins have and will spent considerable time in the Twins farm system, because they aren’t established superstars.
If you look at only who the Yanks developed or the younger players received in trade or signed by the Yanks and compare it to any other teams payroll, then the Yanks would just be another team.
Chamberlain and Hughes would replace CC and Burnett in the starting rotation and some unknowns/journeymen would replace them in the BP. Rumson would replace ARod. Some unknown would replace Teixeira, and some unknowns would replace Matsui and Damon.
Now tell me how good are the Yanks with this lineup? Maybe, it bit better than the Royals, but definitely not better than the Twins.
mww, an awful lot of the Twins you listed that were traded for were obtained while still either in the minor leagues or barely breaking in to the majors.
I’m just confused now. Which is it… that the FO never makes deals that fill gaps where they don’t have home grown talent… or that they don’t really grow their own talent after all?
Is it just me or does it seem like there’s someone around here complaining about the Twins FO on both sides of many issues?
They never sign a FA… no, they sign too many FAs and should give their younger guys more opportunities.
They never make a trade to help the team at midseason… no, they make too many trades at midseason and for the wrong guys.
They never trade from surplus at one position in the offseason to get help at a position of need… no, they give up on players too soon and trade them away where they perform well for someone else.
They lose all their best players to Free Agency as soon as they become really good… no, they waste money signing players to long term extensions and thereby tie up payroll that could be used elsewhere.
If it’s true that some people are never happy unless they have something to complaint about, thank God for the Twins… because they sure seem to make a lot of people like that around here happy, no matter what they do.
The Pollards dont have to keep up every year… again you need to spend money to make money. If they up the payroll to $160 Mil next year and draw 3.5 million fans at $45 average price the team pays for itself.. then their merchandising goes up, their cable fees can go up, they would have a legit chance to win not just next year but for a few more years.
I agree completely JimCrikket. Bitching and moaning is a full-time activity for those folks. I’ve heard many places (including the StarTribune) how huge the expectations were for the Twins this year. They may have been big in the Twin Cities, but I remember watching preseason show after preseason show say the Twins might finish second or probably third in the division.
They didn’t, and for that I consider it a successful year. I hate the damn Yankees, but this, barring some miracle plays, probably wasn’t going to be the year we beat them.
Next year? If we’re healthy and make some solid offseason moves, just maybe. Until then I’ll saver game 163 as one of the best games I’ve ever seen and say thanks Twins for taking me along for the improbable ride.
Farewell to the Dome.
It will be interesting to hear fans argue about which was the Twins “last game” at the Metrodome.
Was it the game 162, when the team had the big going away party?
Or was it the play-in game 163?-the latest “game for the ages”? (how quickly people forget the 1991 World Series Game 7).
For my money, the Dome went out like the dog that it was (pun completely intended).
Here are some of my last game memories…
1. Pavano pitching his tail off (and getting 9 K’s), only to get a loss thanks to A-Rod and Posada’s dingers.
2. The Puuuunnnntooooo!!! cheers that Twins fans were giving LNP before his timely double (who on this blog, would have EVER thought THAT would happen), and then the huge collective dome crowd GROOOOAAAAAAN after his inexplicable baserunning gaffe.
3. Twins fans (?) leaving the game last night after the 8th inning, with the team trailing by just one run.
(Would they leave halfway through a steak dinner?).
4. Speaking of steak dinner, having my last Dome Dog…
5. The dude running on the field in the 9th inning (that Howard noted above) getting the crowd almost as fired up as when Mauer got his RBI. (The dude could give baserunning lessons to Gomez and Punto).
6. Instead of waiting outside in the cold for the train, our part of eight walked around the stadium and went down by home plate to watch it get dug up and carried away. (on to Target Field!)
The ending of 28 years at the Dome was quite fitting for me, as I have seen many more bad teams than good, watched two World Series games won, and have still never been to a Dome Twins vs Yankee’s game when they actually beat New York.
Bring on Target Field!!!
Bring on the Red Sox!!!
Oh, and free the dude who ran on the field already…
Amen, JimCricket. And for 2010, let’s keep it simple. Try to get Zimmerman, even though it’ll cost us a ton of very good players in the minors along with some combination of Go-Go, Buscher, Harris, Casilla, Perkins, & etc.
Then, I believe that Bedard, Webb, and Haren all of FAs this year. They’ve all had injury issues. Sign one of them to an incentive-ladened contract and pray that Neshek is recovered and that Nathan can beat the Yanks. Rivera had a bad year a few years back, so, hopefully, notwithstanding his record number of saves this year, Nathan will do better against the better teams in 2010.
Dennis, how many times have the Twins drawn over 3 million? I’m sure that you’ve heard the ole saying, ‘it takes money to make money.’ You’ve put the cart before the horse and want the Twins to take a flyer on your speculation.
Get a good 3rd baseman and one more starter this year. The Twins played the Yanks tough almost every game this year. They don’t need to spend like Democrats (or drunken sailors, same thing) to put a winning team on the field.
Joe the First, I love that plan. But who would want Buscher, Harris or Casilla? I could see some interest in Go-Go and Perkins.
Haren would be an unreal signing for us. I think he is an absolute stud. He proved that this year with Arizona with very little run support.
FIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!!!: “Yankee’s also draft much better then Twins Jeter,Cano,Melky,Pettite,Posada,Rivera,Coke,Hughes,Chamberlin,Matsui - all drafted or signed as undrafted free agent”
Is it fair to say the Yankee’s draft better than the Twins or that they can afford to KEEP their top draft choices. Santana, Hunter, Lohse, and Milton. And, how much better do mediocre players (Melky, Posada, Hughes) play when flanked by All Stars?
I think there’s definitely some questions about Bill Smith’s actions as GM (certainly not a great trade for Delmon!), but Terry Ryan certainly made as much as he could with the resources available to him.
Compare the Twins results to other teams in their salary range and they stack-up near them top (certainly Florida, TB, and Oakland have faired well, but not as consistently as the Twins). I’d much rather be a Twins fan than a Royals fan!
Thanks Howard for putting an honest response to the series out there instead of the kneejerk reactions we saw last night (including at least one commenter wishing that Gomez and Punto would meet their end under the wheels of a bus).
I was just as pissed at Punto’s misplay in the late innings of Game 3, but for me the killer will always be the blown save in Game 2. The Twins offense struggled, but Nick Blackburn and a few others combined to get the game to the 9th with a lead, which is EXACTLY what you have a guy like Nathan on the roster for.
I won’t pretend that the Twins win the series if they win that game, but it would’ve been far more motivating to come back home with a split series instead of once again finding their backs to the wall.
It was also disheartening watching the guys who came up biggest in September fall silent in October, especially Kubel and Young.
But the series was hardly the steamrolling that the national media expected it to be. And I think the Yankees (amongst the back-patting and media spotlight) are quietly surprised that Nick Blackburn held them to 1 run while Carl Pavano held them to only 2.
If anything, you come back with some of these guys again next year (with some new faces to upgrade weaknesses) and you hope that Gomez’s and Young’s of the world are a bit more wiser for the time spent in the hunt this year.
Hopefully 2010 will find the Twins making the postseason without having to play another extra game.
Just as I expected, predicted and Bet on and Im soo happy. The twinkies are famous for pushing it way above their capacity for the last 2-3 weeks then falling down to their natural level for the 1st round in the playoffs. They were never good enough- they just tried harder than Detroit for the last stretch… so take pride in that at least.
I went into the series saying anything after winning the division in such spectacular fashion would be a bonus. And while that’s still true and I’m thankful for the thrill ride the Twins gave us all in September, this series just reminded me of the shortcomings the Twins philosophy reveals come the post season.
No power, because it costs money.
No patient power hitters, because they cost money.
No power arms on the starting staff, because they cost money.
Lack of quality power arms, because they cost money.
And then there is the money they do spend (distribute poorly). Punto, Rondell, Lamb. Everett, Livan, Crain Monroe and on and on.
We can all take pride in the “Minnesota Nice” label and the players on the team that represent the state and franchise in a first class way. It’s great. But nobody will put Jack Morris as player in that category. And you don’t win in October without a key player or two who fits in that “would run over his own mother to get the win” category.
And now they are about to lose most of that huge home field advantage the Twins have benefited from and used so well the past two decades.
Congrats on 5 AL Central crowns in 8 years! But the danger of becoming a less successful version of the 90’s Braves or 90’s Buffalo Bills is very real.
As much as I would hate it… the best thing that could happen for proponents of some form of payroll controls (both a cap AND a floor) would be for the Yankees and Dodgers to have about 5 straight seasons of 110 wins each, meeting in the WS, the Yankees sweeping each Series. When seeing the same teams clearly being annointed champion each year before the first pitch is thrown in April results in fans all over the country losing interest in MLB, you would see change.
Short of that happening, it would take virtually all of the non-Yankee owners to band together and demand a change… and that ain’t gonna happen.
So until then, I’ll pull (1) for the Twins, (2) for the smallest market team remaining in the playoffs (Rockies, at least until tonight), and (3) for whoever’s up against the Evil Empire.
But the fact is, I’ll probably actually watch very few innings of any remaining games. Maybe tune in to see what’s going on in the 8th inning if I’m not doing anything more interesting… like cleaning the bathroom or something.
Gerry, but Haren has a history of injuries, so this will limit his value. All I’m saying is that the Twins should look at trying to sign one of the three to an incentive-laden contract, if they were to become FAs this year. I believe that all three are FA eligible this year.
The Twins also would have to offer some of the top minor league prospects. The Nats are in tough finanical shape, so it’d be worthwhile to talk to the Nats about Zimmerman, b/c it’s unlikely the Nats will be able to sign him.
One additional note: I thought broadcasts were explicity forbidden from showing fans when they came on the field.
Or is that just the policy that the Twins have for their broadcasts?
True, a lot of those guys they traded for were prospects, something I’ve complained about. I’d like them to trade for guys in their prime.
I have never complained that they sign too many FAs. Never will.
I have never complained about them signing players to an extension, except Cuddy, and I’ve already admitted I was wrong on that one. I liked the Morny, nathan, Kubel, Baker extensions for example quite a bit. I wanted them to sign Santana and Hunter the year before they had to. So, I don’t know where that one comes from.
I liked the theory of the Garza/Young trade, if not the execution thereof - I do think they should trade from a perceived strength if the MLB team has great players in their prime (like now). It was just the kind of trade they should make (not throwing in Bartlett with no SS in the system). I just thought they should go for Matt Kemp instead (not that he was necessarily available), as I thought Young swung at too many pitches outside the zone and hit too many ground balls. So, I complained about the choices of who was involved, but admitted it was the kind of trade I thought they should make.
Most trades they’ve made, until this year, have been veterans for prospects (Stewart and Castillo being exceptions also). So, I’ve rarely had the opportunity to complain they traded good prospects for vets. I’ve asked for more trades of prospects, not less.
Yes, I’ve disagreed with some of their moves, and I’ve agreed with others. I’d have gone for Sanchez (who had another year on his deal) and not OCab, for example. I wasn’t in love with the Pavano deal, but I don’t think they’d make the kind of deal to get a great player in return mid-season.
So, Jim, if that was aimed at me, I think it missed. I’ve been pretty consistent on the approach I’d take.
As for the complaining part, that may be more accurate than I want on these boards somtimes. I think I got better this year as the year went on. I’ll keep trying as I keep going.
If the Twins cant average over 40,000 in a brand new stadium then maybe your city shouldnt have a team. So you draw 2.4 Million fans which is 30,000 a game and at $45 a ticket its still $110 Million to spend on payroll.. If you cant do 30,000 a game in a new stadium then you really shouldnt have a team.
T: I also found it weird that TBS showed the idiot on the field. Very bizarre actually.
Dennis, you may or may not be right, but I’m curious:
what should a ticket price be, on average, across the US? Should they fund $100MM in salaries for 24 people? Should they fund more than that? Don’t forget about the other costs to run a team. I mean, what if baseball was funded to pay an average salary of $4MM per year to entertaininers? Would that really be a bad thing (especially as their salaries are already largely subsidized by tax dollars)? If you want a free market, I’m ok with that, IF stadiums are funded by the teams also.
what minimum attendance should a city have before it loses its team (and where should they go)?
Dennis you do realize that the new Stadium only holds 40,000 people right? Someone with your obvious knowledge could not have missed that could you?
mww, it was only half aimed at you. My point, and I apologize if I didn’t communicate it clearly, is that for every complaint YOU (and those who agree with you) make, there’s no shortage of others around here complaining about the exact opposite. Of course, the complaints that make me roll my eyes the most are those making terrific use of 20/20 hindsight.
Also some complaints (such as yours with regard to including Bartlet in the Young trade) fail to take in to account the obvious… that NO TRADE would have occurred if the Rays hadn’t been able to get Bartlet in the deal! So apparently the Twins shouldn’t have made that trade… which would have just had even more people complaining about how they never trade from a surplus to fill a need.
Charlie, go easy on Dennis. It’s that NYC public education of his that’s at fault… not him.
I am actually upset that the Gophers have not been averaging 70,000 in their new stadium. The Twins should easily be able to squeeze 50,000 into the new park no matter how many seats there actually are
Personally, I think any team that can’t find enough fans to fill more than a quarter of their seats closest to home plate shouldn’t have a team… or at the very least, should have someone new running that team.
Oh… and another amusing item. Apparently Rudy Guliani didn’t like his seat in the FIRST ROW behind the Yankees dugout. He liked his old seats, beside the dugout better. So the Yankees went and made a young couple sitting in those seats exchange seats with Guliani.
Now that’s a class organization, gang.
Well, then I’d have not made the deal. Losing a SP appeared to make sense. Including a SS, when they had no one to replace him, did not (unless they were getting a hitter at another position in his prime, proven quantity state - which DY was not - he was still a prospect with a decent rookie year under his belt). That was what I specifically did not like about the deal (though I also didn’t like dealing Garza instead of one of the other players).
And, yup, any move is going to have complainers, I’d guess. That is a tough part of the job for people in the public eye - there are almost always doubters/haters/complainers.
i was living in nyc between 1988-93 when the mets thought they were entitled to another world series title. they paid the money and bought the players (and whipped the obnoxious fan base into a frenzy). but much to my surprise (and delight) it didn’t happen.
winning the big prize seems to have more to do with the baseball gods than the front office or the manager or the fans or even the players …
garza was dealt because he was a headcase. bartlett was dealt because he sucked at defense.
young was acquired to make up for a the right-handed pop that left when torii left (he was also pushed out the door, similar to garza). harris was acquired to add major-league depth in the infield.
…i wish i knew exactly what was said between garza and management.
i think the jury is still out on this one. harris fulfills his role. young is still developing. garza is still develping. bartlett’s poor defense in minny translates into excellent defense in tampa (his bat has been a surprise to twins and rays people alike, i think).
first off there should be some contraction… in all 4 major sports. The product is too watered down and the leagues cant keep ignoring it. I think its a travesty that the poor people of Detroit who are struggling financially cant watch their dreadful lions on tv because they cant sell out a home game, but if a team like Jacksonville just doesnt have the fan base to support 80,000 every other sunday should they keep their team? no I dont think so. I live on Long Island where the NHL’s Islanders have been a dreadful laughing stock for decades… I have my season tickets though, I’m supporting them with the hope they rebound. Will they? I dunno, they may move if they cant get the approval for the arena they want. and maybe they should be contracted if they cant improve, the Coyotes are a blight on the NHL.
You cant set a ticket price across the US I know it costs way more to do business here in NY and most new yorkers (and other major cities) make way more than salary than other places.. Here in NY if you make $100,000 youre middle class.. we pay $125 for a ticket to Broadway to see people we never heard of. And I accept that my ticket prices are high, there are afterall 15 million people in the surrounding area trying to buy those same seats… Supply and demand lives in NY But I also dont think that $45 a ticket is so horrible… you are after all seeing the greatest athletes of our time. Do I think they are all overpaid? yes.. but is Tom Cruise worth 30 million for a 2 hour movie? is Charlie Sheen worth 875,000 an episode for his sitcom (thats over 19 mil a year) at least for your 45 bucks youre seeing them in person and who knows that day just might be the day Mauer hits 5 hrs or drives in 10 or someone pitches a no hitter.
Yes there are other costs to running a team but wont the twins own the parking and concessions and merchandising? That figure isnt in the 110 million for payroll. Your owner just isnt committed to winning. The Steinbrenners are… they always have been. The Yankees were dreadful when he bought the team in 1973. Hes the reason the team is worth over a billion dollars today.
Baseball is a business first and foremost. If you can make money drawing a million a year, then good for you. but realistically you have to put a good product on the field to be successful.
charlie why woudl i know (or care) what your new stadium will hold? didnt have room for a bigger one? were there too many cow pastures in the way?
youre right Jim maybe you can buy one of those tickets. i would be you have a spare $1500 per seat to spare… oh whats that? thats what you earn in a month?? nevermind
Dennis is your real name Stu Pidaso?
So you draw 2.4 Million fans which is 30,000 a game and at $45 a ticket its still $110 Million to spend on payroll.
If only every dollar spent on a ticket went directly towards player salary.
Because as well all know that is the ONLY expense associated with running a ball club.
Dennis if you are going to take the time to come on here and complain about the way the Twins do business you should at least take the time to understand what you are talking about.
God bless Dennis, who has arrived to remind us that no matter how snipy we get at each other none of us are nearly as bad as the majority of the douchebags that route for New York.
Try to get Zimmerman? Seriously?
The players you mentioned would get scoffed at. Zimmerman’s package would start with Slowey and/or Span, then add a combination of Aaron Hicks, Ben Revere, Kyle Gibson, Shooter Hunt, etc. and another B-level prospect or two. Anyone we’ve drafted in the past three years who’s been worth anything, plus two players ready to immediately contribute at the Major League level will be what’s required to get Zimmerman.
Ryan Zimmerman is untouchable for the Nationals; it’s plain and simple. He’s the face of the franchise, he’s a great player, and he’s the only one they have. He’s staying in Washington.
the yankees make lots of money.
they also spent a lot of money on players that don’t win championships.
who cares.
And in the miracle instance that he does go somewhere, it will be to a team who has the pitching prospects to immediately fill out the Washington rotation. They need two potential frontline starters plus another two middle-of-the-rotation guys, as well as some legitimate outfield prospects or help up the middle.
We’ve got nothing to offer.
Derek Jeter is not even the MVP of his own team! How could he be the most important person for the league?
1. Texiera
2. Rivera
3. Sabbathia
4. Hughes
5. Cano
6. Arod
7. Jeter
God bless Dennis, who has arrived to remind us that no matter how snipy we get at each other none of us are nearly as bad as the majority of the douchebags that route for New York
don’t you kind of have to be somewhat of a “douchebag” to actually root for a guy like a-roid… or giambi… pettitte… clemens… (can we just assume there are many more that we can’t name… yet) ???
the Yankees are like the stepford baseball team.
Mighty Casey our own lovable Twins has been caught with the roids also -
Rincon and JC Romero and who knows who else..
Was Romero ever a lovable Twin? I just remember a hot-head who was lights out one day and couldn’t throw a strike the next…kind of like Mijares!!!
jc romero and juan rincon aren’t lovable twins.
did you enjoy listening to chip carey in absolute awe last night, talking about how strong a-rod was? hmmm that’s funny!
romero was as much of a twin when he got caught as david ortiz.
What would be Jeter’s stats w/o years of playing with big name FAs? Tino, Knoblauch, Giambi, Abreau, ARod, etc., etc. As the Yanks signed more big name FAs, Jeter’s batting stats improved. What would be his stats w/o such a supporting cast?
Let the sad Haiku begin.
Yankees bring sadness
Leaves fall on an empty dome
Desparation reigns
Personally I’m not an A rod fan I was hoping the Yanks wouldnt re-sign him. In my house i call him F-wad cause thats what I really think if him. But I guess if the twins trade for Manny you’d all give up on your team.
I came out here to defend what I knew would be Yankee bashing after they swept your team out of the playoffs. 9I was right.. there was) Personally I dont care what the Pollards do with there (and your) money. Keep supporting the Twins so that they never win the series, and be sure that the vastly rich Pollard family keep making money off you all without them ever committing themselves to win. And again if were going to assume more yankees are on the juice go look at the 3x increase in Mauers power numbers and tell me hes not on the juice. hmmm is his contract up soon? I wonder if he needed some increase power numbers to drive up his price. Personally I like Mauer he’d look great in Yankee Pinstripes…
Stop accusing everyone that beats you as being a steroid user. I’m sure some Twins (or by this point ex Twins) are on that list just like players from every other team.
I had hoped to have an intelligent conversation out here and a few of you did that, but I guess i should have know that an intelligent conversation would turn to name calling with midwestern rubes like yourselves. (you know who you are)
But I guess if the twins trade for Manny you’d all give up on your team.
pretty much, ya.
you lost all cred when you accuse mauer of juicing. enjoy watching your beloved yankees and everything they stand for.
Dennis, wow. Money doesn’t buy class, does it? Take your comments, your Islanders, your steroid-monkey Yankees and the entire state of New York and shove ‘em up your ass.
Dennis
IF Mauer were to go to another team it would make more sense for him to go to Boston. He could hit doubles off the monster all day long and make a serious run at 400 every year. Of course he is not going to go anywhere so you don’t need to worry about seeing him in a Red Sox uni anytime soon.
By the way, it’s “Pohlad”. Use some of your large sums of cash for spelling and grammar lessons, and buy a clue!
Snow falls on the Dome,
A deep winter’s sleep begins,
It won’t bloosom in the spring.
Dennis, you intellectual giant, with regard to your reference to the “Pollad’s money”, it’s THEIR money, not there, as in your mind isn’t there or anywhere for that matter. Gosh almighty, Denny the Dummy, you must be a welfare sucking NYer who uses the welfare check to buy a $6 cup of coffee in the stadium.
Gerald Ford had it right, but God bless you anyway and remember, Denny, Jesus loves you.
Enjoy watching the rest of the baseball playoffs oh wait your season is OVER
oh yes and please always remember what team closed out your beloved crappy dome
the NY Yankees
Here is the preliminary depth chart I would like to see for ‘10.
C - Mauer, Morales
1B - Morneau
2B - Punto
SS - Orlando Cabrera, Tolbert
3B - Crede, Harris
RF - Cuddyer
CF - _______
LF - Span
DH - Kubel
SP - Slowey, Baker, Blackburn, Pavano, _____
RP - Guerrier, Mijares, Mahay, Rauch, Nathan, Crain, _______
Transactions to make: send Casilla and Gomez to Rochester for the entire year. Make sure they have a good coach who speaks Spanish. Trade them if possible.
Trade Delmon Young for a fleet-of-foot, good-fielding center fielder. While I have been a fan of Delmon Young, he isn’t the best fit on this team. If Twins pitching is going to keep pitching to contact, we must have a faster group of outfielders with excellent fielding ability and a propensity to throw to the right base. That is why Delmon Young needs to be traded.
Span will be comparable offensively to Young. Span will be better than him defensively and on the basepaths.
Span’s arm is average. He should be in left field every day, not center or right. We need a strong defensive center fielder with a good arm who gives us better offense and smarter baserunning than Carlos Gomez.
Try to always give Mauer his DH days against left-handed pitchers. Keep Kubel on the bench as a pinch hitting option on those days. We can’t use Kubel as an everyday outfielder because with Twins pitching, the outfielders need to run fast to the gaps.
Redmond is not very effective anymore. Offer him a job in coaching or front office staff. Somebody should figure out what the Twins record was when Redmond caught the game. It must be something like 10 wins, 20 losses.
Crede will heal up and be ready. He is immediately our best offensive and defensive third base option.
If Crede can’t come back, our next best option at third base would be Cuddyer. Moving Cuddyer would open a need for a fast right-fielder with a good, strong arm and a decent bat. While Cuddyer has average speed, he is a decent option in right field because of his arm strength.
Pitchers on the bubble due to injuries, inexperience, or other questions: Neshek, Bonser, Perkins, Liriano, Keppel, Duensing, Swarzak
We could use another Spanish-speaking pitcher so that Mijares will have somebody he can talk to in Spanish. Apparently he and Liriano haven’t become buddies.
We could use another Spanish-speaking position player in addition to Cabrera and Morales so those guys will have more guys to talk to.
Obviously, if Gomez and Casilla were better, that would fill two enormous holes on this team. I just can’t be confident in them, though, based on their play this year. Maybe they can get better.
Wait to tell him off, Sarge, and by the way, Dennis, go find someone else’s parade to rain on. We don’t need or want your malicious comments about our team and you can take your overpaid, steroid using team and do what Sarge says - but do it sideways.
Yo Denny, have fun eating a $50 hot dog from the glory holes in the mens room at Yankee-Wankee stadium.
TBS Covers the Playoffs (Only a slight exageration version).
http://thedugoutdoctors.com/2009/10/tbs-covers-the-playoffs/
This is getting very old for me. First place, and out. Gardy has had so many chances to win in the playoffs, however has failed miserably. I thought Gardy preached fundamentals? The fundamentals were nowhere to be found in this series, from the players or coaches. Gardy won a weak division, came from behind only because he did not get in done in April or May. Who’s fault is that? Just remember, the window of opportunity is closing. Many of these players will be gone soon, and the Twins will have to rebuild. How about offering Mauer part ownership of the Twins? I think that may be the only way to keep him here.
that is, it won’t blossom in the spring.
“Punto’s mistake also involves Ullger who was over half way down the baseline. When Punto is going all out how is he supposed to see Ullger when he’s so far down the line?”
Er uh, how bout he looks for him rounding 2B?
Cuddyer to third is the answer, Gardy needs to sit him down and explain that the players don’t get to pick their positions the manager does, if he wants to pout about playing third base I think he would make an attractive item on the trade market over the winter. Maybe Mr Smith could get someone who wants to play everyday at third.
Dennis has enormous pride. His personal contribution to his team’s success has been extraordinary. He can take that immense pride around with him when he attaches the pizza sign to his Ford Fiesta, says goodbye to mom, and heads off to wo0rk.
Gardy needs to sit him down and explain that the players don’t get to pick their positions the manager does
that cuddy is such a whiner… all he did the last month was bich and moan about moving to 1b. talk about a guy who is me-first. trade cudaver.
To all you “New York Haters” (1) it is obvious that you have never been to New York, or to Yankee Stadium–and know absolutely nothing about New York. And (2) who gives a hoot if you root for the Yankees or not!
Thanks for the link John P. Hysterical and not far from the truth of TBS’ pitiful broadcasting efforts.
PS: At Yankee Stadium they do not wave towels in the faces of opposing players. That bush league stuff!
Thanks, Dennis and theprof, for reminding all of us (as if we needed reminding) that the words “class” and “New York” are mutually exclusive.
“JimCrikket says:
October 12th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Thanks, Dennis and theprof, for reminding all of us (as if we needed reminding) that the words “class” and “New York” are mutually exclusive.”
I nominate JC’s post to USAFChief for today’s PoD.
So those of you ripping Gardy your saying that if Gardy was managing the yankees and Giradi was managing the Twins the outcome would have been different Ok keep smoking it. I would take 3 players of the Yanks and put them on the Twins and the twins kill the Yanks. Gardy had done the most with the least as any manager in baseball. Look at the payrolls of the teams in the playoffs this year and tell me money doesn’t matter. Baseball needs a salary cap enough said
Cuddyer at 3B was a disaster. That’s why he got moved around the OF.
Cuddyer did well at 1B this year. Third base is not far removed from that.
Ideally, though, we bring Crede back and he is healthy.
Cuddyer did well at 1B this year. Third base is not far removed from that.
if you’ve ever played both positions you’d know how silly you sound.
pretty good story from the ny times on lidge, how players go through bad periods and how detractors can be as important as supporters:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/opinion/12glanville-mentors.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Amen Mighty Casey.
It’s not just a different side of the diamond 1st base and 3rd base are different worlds!
if 3rd and 1st were similar i’d still be playing ball right now…
if 3rd and 1st were similar punto could have overrun the bag last night with no problem.
Agree, first and third not that similar. Every position has quite a lot of difference. Maybe left and center are pretty close, but that’s about it.
Please note I said, “maybe”.
Wow. Rough couple of days for closers.
Papelbon, Nathan, Street…all instrumental in their teams eventual elimination.
Ideally, though, we bring Crede back and he is healthy.
Considering that the words “Crede” and “retirement” were floating around following his final game as a Twin this season…I doubt that he’s in future plans.
Mauer Power says:
October 12th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Cuddyer did well at 1B this year. Third base is not far removed from that.
Ideally, though, we bring Crede back and he is healthy.
Justin Morneau should play 3B then since Cuddy is obviously more comfortable at 1B then RF.
“Wow. Rough couple of days for closers.”
even the great mariano allowed an inherited runner to score by coughing up a single to span in the 8th inning friday …
trade them all!
Tolbert did just fine at third and he will continue to improve. Third isn’t a problem. Punto will be back at shortstop and Casilla will return to his 2008 form at second.
Casilla would have been playing everyday if Cabrera had not been acquired. Nick was sensational and just outplayed Casilla for the second base job. Casilla is an incredible talent who needs to play everyday next season.
The infield is solid. They just need a backup for Punto. Someone who can also play second would be ideal. A big name, big money player is NOT necessary.
“trade them all!”
I say keep them all, but I am okay with this as a backup plan.
even the great mariano allowed an inherited runner to score by coughing up a single to span in the 8th inning friday …
While he didn’t blow any saves, didn’t the Twins manage baserunners against him in all three appearances?
I know on Wednesday they got two runners on base against him.
Bunting Twins,
I can’t tell if you are trying to be funny or serious. I’ll assume the latter and that you have no clue. Tolbert is a utility player, not a starting 3B. His .232 average and total lack of power is the giveaway.
“I know on Wednesday they got two runners on base against him”
Allowing two baserunners is hardly the sign of any imminent deterioration.
Who doesn’t allow baserunners?
Bunting Twins,
P.S. Casilla has burned nearly as many bridges as Perkins, although not so much with his mouth. He’s failed at every opportunity he’s been given this season. This makes his chances of being in next year’s starting line-up slim and none.
theprof225,
Heh, heh, heh. So you’re a professor? Yea, you’ve probably failed the GED test several times. We’ve got your number. We know that you can’t read.
If you were able to read, you’d note that many of the Twins fans on this site live in the NYC area. I’ve lived in NYC and NJ for almost 30 years and have seen over 200 games at Yankee Stadium during this period.
I saw the first ever game in the new stadium (Cubs @ Yanks) and remember all of those Teixeira & CC jerseys and tee shirts. Yea, these two players just love NY, the fans, and the team. Money has nothing to do with their signing with the Yanks. It was all for love.
Oh, by the way, when you eat that over-priced concession food, remember, the Pohlads put more of the profits or revenue back into the team than does Steinbrenner. The Steinbrenners thank you for your continued patronage. Heh, heh, you NYC suckers, no wonder you keep voting in tax-and-spend politicians while jobs flee NY, particularly, NYC.
Happy job hunting, professor. Heh, heh.
Allowing two baserunners is hardly the sign of any imminent deterioration.
Unless your name is Joe Nathan, and you play for the Twins…in which case it becomes cause for talking about trading him.
Tolbert’s regular season numbers since being called back up:
.368 .444 .333 - September
.353 .533 .333 - October
What’s not to like about that? Add slick fielding and excellent speed and you have a real good, complete player. He at least deserves a chance to show if he can play well all season. I think he can. The solution to third base could be right here. You aren’t going to get Ryan Zimmerman. Accept the real world.
Casilla’s hitting was up and down in 2009. Mostly down. I think his hitting will return to 2008 form or better. He is a good fielder, at times sensational. He deserves another chance. He has tremendous baseball skills. I like him in the number 2 slot in the lineup.
Bunting Twin, I agree with you in at least one respect. The Twins are not going to acauire Zimmerman or Figgins. The former would likely cost too much in the way of talent (yes, the Nats will actually ask for good players in return) and the latter will be too pricey.
As far as the hitters go, I expect the following in 2010:
2 Catchers: Mauer and Butera
6 Infielders: Morneau, Caspuntol and two new players.
5 Outfielders: Young, Span, Cuddyer, Kubel and one new player.
So ,the Tigers are having a garage sale. Maybe there are some odds and ends the Twins could use. Adam Everett round 2 anyone?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Detroit-Tigers-losing-free-agents-?urn=mlb,195833
If the Twins take anybody off the Tigers hands, I’d rather it be Polanco.
I’m pretty sure his contract’s up this year.
I worded that wrong: “If the Twins take any MIF from the Tigers…”
That was to say I’d rather have Polanco than Everett.
But I wouldn’t mind giving Rodney or Lyon a go.
The Tigers can pick up an option on Polanco’s contract to keep him for another year. I would be shocked if they didn’t.
Orlando Cabrera hits much better than Adam Everett. Keep Cabrera.
I don’t understand why OC and Crede would have less body stress to speak of just because they’ll be on grass instead of artificial turf next season at Target.
They spend most of their time on the dirt on both kinds of fields.
They’re both definitely beyond their prime.
The guy who should benefit a lot is Cuddy. He looked like he was dragging a lot while running in right field.
not sure, romer, but my hunch is that the metrodome dirt has the same problem as the turf — it’s on top of concrete.
Thanks, mm.
As a fan, I’d like to try Crede again. Really need that RH power bat.
As a thinking fan, he looks cooked — natural turf or not. Maybe if he’d do it for $1M or thereabouts……….
is beltre too expensive? weren’t you lobbying hard for him a couple years back?
maybe if they could get him to wear a cup he’d stay healthy …
Yeah I wanted Beltre. But that was during the season before his unexpected injury.
He’s recovered now, right? He’d be expensive. And a new starting pitcher would be expensive.
Would they do both?
just checked — he’s 30 and made $13.4m in 2008 (didn’t see a figure for 2009). also, only hit eight home runs this season — i guess it’s not practical, especially in twinsland. and a starting pitcher seems to be the biggest need.
but i suppose everything will depend on how and when (and if) a mauer deal is structured.
Beltre’s no trade clause includes the Twins.
Twins would need to entice him ($$$) to end waive that to come here.
I believe that Crede and Beltre have Scott Boras for an agent. If Crede wants to stay, I am not sure Boras would push/allow Beltre to drop the Twins from the no-trade clause.
beltre is a free agent.
I stand corrected-thought he was signed through 2010.
The Pohlads can put a moratorium on all contributions to politicians (sheesh, I couldn’t believe it when I read that they’re big-time, major-league contributors to Demoncrats (not a misspelling).
Then, use this money to sign either Bedard, Lackey, Webb, or Harden (assuming that options aren’t picked up for the latter two) to incentive-ladened contracts, with the potential for big payoffs.
Re-sign Cabrera, Rausch, Mahay, &, of course, Pavano. With the money the Pohlads would save from not making political contributions, this would be no problem, along with:
SIGN MAUER THIS WINTER.
Keep Joe N. Yea, he racked up stats against Central Division opponents, but so what? That’s the division in which play the Twins. A really good run in the CD in 2010 could give the Twins a shot at the best record in the AL and home field advantage throughout the playoffs.
Then, offer Valencia, Liriano, Perkins, Bonsor, Buscher, and Revere to the Nats for Zimmerman, provided that the Twins and Zimmerman can agree to a 6-year deal. With the Twins savvy in scouting and player development, in a few years, the farm can be re-stocked with quality players.
If no Zimm deal, then, realistically, let’s see about Crede this year. Beltre is too eratic and unpredictable with regard to both injuries and performance. No way should the Twins take a chance with him.
So, 2010 would look as such:
Span - CF
Mauer - C
Zimmerman - 3B
Morneau - 1B
Cuddy - RF
Kubel - DH
Young - LF
Punto/Tolbert - 2B
Cabrera - SS
Tolbert/Punto
Ramos C
????
Slowey
Blackburn
Baker
Pavano
FA?
Nathan
Neshek
Guerrier
Mijares
Mahay
Rausch
Crain (he improved a lot from late Aug.)
Duensing
Let’s not go overboard with some crazy, wild rebuilding. We’re close.
Gomez & Casilla need to spend a full season in AAA.
Besides, regarding the Pohlad’s political contributions, players’ salaries are a deductible cost of doing business and political contributions aren’t a deductible item in any context.
Putting together a good Twins team would do more for the people of Minnesota than giving money to politicians.
Joe,
“The Pohlads can put a moratorium on all contributions to politicians (sheesh, I couldn’t believe it when I read that they’re big-time, major-league contributors to Demoncrats (not a misspelling).”
You know, some might voice an opinion on your propensity to criticize others on what they do with their money. But not me. I know whatcha mean. Hard to believe intelligent educated beings would endeavor to help the less fortunate in a way other than the time honored, well proven, trickle down method.
Sheesh.
well said, paul.
Paul,
Do you really believe that money given to politicians helps the people? Or is it more likely that such contributions buy influence for the contributor? Should you believe the former, I’ve a large inventory of bridges at super low prices that you might want to buy from me.
Look all politicians seek power and to get it they need money. To believe otherwise is just too naive for me to even bother engaging in dialogue on the issue. Party affiliation makes little difference in this regard.
And making the Twins a good team has nothing to do with trickle down. How you read that into my post is a mystery to me. You’re obviously quite defensive.
Take a breather and call your doctor in the morning.
Same to you, Mickey, Mentally Challenged.
Hey mickey,
Thanks. Sometimes I can just let it pass, sometimes I can’t.
Joe the First is a political troll.
If he sticks to the Twins here, fine.
If not….ignore.
Romer,
Paul raised the issue of politices. My original post had nothing to do with politics. All I’m saying is that the Pohlads can put the money into the Twins, or, worthy charities, for that matter. But giving money to politicians only benefits the contributor. Anyone who believes that large contributions to politicians by wealthy individuals is for anything other than to buy influence is just too dumb.
Why don’t all of us bloggers on this site vote upon the issue:
Should the Pohlads give large sums of money to politicians or instead, put the money into signing players for the Twins?
joe the first,
“demoncrats”? “mentally challenged”? your childish name-calling says more about you than you apparently realize. and the other day you were criticizing a poster’s grammar. that in itself is laughable.
there’s a difference between an opinion and a judgment. you come across as very sanctimonious.
stick to baseball.
MM, if you think that it’s childish, why did you let it get your goat?
a new level of childishness, joe the first. bravo.
MM, yep, it really got to you. Look, Mentally Challenged, take a pause from drinking the kool aid, take some deep breaths, and put your brain on cruise control.
Yay. Apparently the Twins vitrol wasn’t enough to piss everybody off, so we’re going to get at each other throats about politics too.
Good to see that we’ve rolled the Annual Cycle of Twins Whining right around back to “Cheap Ownership” in record time.
T:
I didn’t post that the owners are cheap. In fact, my post had nothing to do with whether or not the Pohlads are being parsimonious. I merely pointed out they could do more for Minnesotans by putting into the team, especially signing players, what they give to politicians.
The headline on the home page…”Reusse vs Souhan: Trade Nathan?”
These were the alternate headlines:
Harry vs Lloyd: Trade Petey?
Dumb and Dumber: Reasons to not read the STRIB.
Waffling. How to do it by Pat & Jim, guest appearance by Brett.
Morons: Enough said
and finally…”This way we don’t have to post two pieces by these two pieces…”
I merely pointed out they could do more for Minnesotans by putting into the team, especially signing players, what they give to politicians.
Right, they’re too cheap to spend on both…so you’d rather they spend on the Twins intsead of a political party you don’t argee with.
Like I said, cheap ownership complaint combined with political pot-stirring.
Vikes owners aren’t cheap! 6-0 baby! This is funny, check it out:
Just remember Souhan also penned a column asking the Vikings not to bring in Brett Favre.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/44422517.html?elr=KArks:DCiU1PciUoaEYY_4PcUU
Anyway, please come back Howard! What was the final tally on k-bro’s food shelf items?
Howard,
On my computer screen, right next to the entrance to your blog, there’s an add that states:
“Avg. Twins IQ = 84″
This is so inaccurate that it should be embarrassing for the paper. Don’t these things get vetted?
I noticed that also, Paul. Here, let’s take the IQ test:
1) How many sides does an octogon have? 8 !
2)What is the world population. I’ll pick “4.8 billion”
3)What is the strongest muscle in the human body, relative to it’s size? Might be a trick question.
I’m gonna pick “tongue”.
4)How many items are in a “baker’s dozen”? That’s easy, 13!
5)Library is to Book as Book is to: That would have to be page. I think.
6)What number is next in this pattern: 10, 1, 9, 2, 8, 3, … Hmmmm. Seems to be some
kind of high-low pattern. I’ll pick 7.
7)Which of these is prime? I think I skipped that day. I’ll say the number 3.
8)Which of following doesn’t fit: Square,rectangle,circle,parallelogram. Four sided things
so “circle” doesn’t fit!
9)Rearrange these letters into a word and choose the category it belongs to: RTKUC?
I didn’t know there would be speling. Looks like “TRUCK”, so I choose “car category”.
10) The left side of your brain controls: Everyone knows it’s the right side of your body!
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Ha! I’m not THAT dumb ! ! !
Oh oh. It looks like the MLB avg. IQ is down to 81. Somebody must of signed Jose Canseco.
