The deal: Little bit sad, a good deal of glad
Posted on November 6th, 2009 – 3:40 PMBy Howard
The 2010 Twins need a shortstop. The 2009 Twins had five outfielders, if you include Jason Kubel in that mix.
So trading for J.J. Hardy, a point of view espoused by Section 220 at about this time last November, is a good move. Hardy struggled significantly this season (even earning a several week stint in the minors, which the Twins never dared to do with Gomez) but has an offensive track record from the previous two years and good enough defense (He led National League shortstops in revised zone rating this season despite his problems) to make Hardy-for-Carlos Gomez a worthwhile risk.
This means the Twins are willing to settle for a second-best defensive outfield (compared with Gomez in center and Denard Span at one of the corners) and that those who wanted the veteran leadership of Orlando Cabrera on next year’s roster will be disappointed. The Cabrera issue is really a nonstarter, however, because his defense was flashy but suspect and, for the spectacular flashes he sometimes provided, that was a .313 on-base percentage he ended up with during his Minnesota time. And based on these numbers, you couldn’t find an AL shortstop who played worse defense.
In the cold light of the hot stove, OC was short-term salve. We should be happy for that and wish him well.
The Twins have also decided, for now, that Delmon Young has a better chance than Gomez to be the everyday impact player they imagined with making those trades. You can still have a good debate over that one, and the Twins could have come to that conclusion as a convenient truth after testing the market for both players.
As for Gomez, I’ll miss him. I loved what he brought to the outfield — save for the maddening bunny hops that increasingly became part of his throwing motion — and the good at-bats when he figured out which of his tools to use at the plate. But for a guy in his sixth year of professional baseball, there were just too many times when he didn’t do the right thing in all facets of the game.
If the Twins are to regain their reputation for doing the little things right — a phrase that still gets misapplied to them in the national media — guys like Gomez will not be part of the solution. Given a chance, his skills will probably improve in the lesser National League. Likewise, Hardy shouldn’t be expected to return to his 2007-08 numbers. But numbers in the neighborhood would be good.
The Twins now have a shortstop they can pen into the lineup whose name isn’t Punto. They still need a third baseman. (That would be free agent Chone Figgins, if you want to know how know I really feel.) Figgins and a “Top Two” starting pitcher are the gifts I think fans deserve from Twins management as we all move across downtown to Target Field.
Another reason I’m glad to see this deal is that it speaks to an aggressive stride that Bill Smith appeared to find as last season wore on — when Cabrera, Carl Pavano, Jon Rauch and Ron Mahay were brought in. Each played a role in the run to the AL Central title, with Rauch and Mahay having a good chance to be factors in the coming season. The market for Pavano is uncertain, but I’d like to see the Twins involved as middle-of-the-rotation prices. Five from among Free Agent/Blackburn/Baker/Slowey/Pavano/Duensing is a rotation that I’d be fine with.
Here’s the best current list of potential free agents that I could find today. ESPN’s web site has a free agent tracker that hasn’t yet been updated with 2009 names.
Finally, there’s some below-the-radar good from this deal in that it reunites Gomez with ex-FSN chatterer Telly Hughes. That duo combined for an interview I never get tired of watching. I hope they get encore opportunities in Milwaukee.
134 Responses to "The deal: Little bit sad, a good deal of glad"
You can’t find a rotation with Baker in it that you’re fine with?
Just kidding - I’m sure that was an oversight while pounding out a quick column!
Keep up the good work, Howard - I love reading your stuff.
gooseman
Good to hear from you Howard and welcome back to the blogosphere that is Twins Territory. I’m happy with this trade and would do a backflip if BS could somehow get Figgins for 3rd base too but am more concerned about getting a starting pitcher. I will miss GoGo for his enthusiasm and defense but won’t miss the flailing at home plate on those sliders down and away. This gives me incentive to drive to Milwaukee this summer to see him play and maybe catch an interview with Telly Hughes too. Priceless!
MLB trade rumors also has a free agent list, but they live update theirs; a handy feature come January.
Ultimately, the Twins believed they could get more total value out of Young than they could out of Gomez and that’s what made him the 4th OF and viable trade bait. Whether that’s true or not, I give credit to Smith for seeing what pieces weren’t getting used and turning them into a very solid shortstop.
Howard,
Mahay is a free agent and I suspect will not be back, with Neshek, Bonser et. al. coming back healthy…
No Baker in your rotation?
Goose and Bob, Baker’s in there now. Got some off-season rust to shake off!
T98: You’re right. But the Twins could make Mahay a Mark Kotsay-type offer to be the other bullpen lefty.
Any lineup that doesn’t include Punto will please me. How many years do I have to wait? Overpaid pig with lipstick.
Does any of this get the Twins any closer to winning even one game against the Yankees next year? I doubt it.
Howard: I guess that Go Go The Bat Kisser only had good games against the White Sox (and nobody else). Judging from the Strib fan poll, it looks like the majority of Twins fans won’t miss him. I will be happy to see him gone to the Senior Circuit.
Chone Figgins is a bit of a stretch unless Twins management is suddenly ready to spend big money. Half of the teams in baseball would love to sign him, including my Sox and the Cubs and the list goes on. I don’t see either the Twins or the White Sox paying the kind of money that it will take to sign Figgins. Mark DeRosa might be a shrewd signing to fill in the 3B slot, so I hope that the Twins don’t do that.
Looking over that free agent list, not a lot to get excited about. Both of our teams need relief pitching and all I see is a big pile of “meh” on that list.
I look forward to renewing our rivalry again next season - playing on natural grass and outdoors, the way baseball was meant to be played. Here’s to a great rivalry (Twins-Sox). See you next spring.
Howard’s back!!!! I was starting to wonder for a while there…
Nice reset on “What Go-Go told Telly,” it never gets old.
This was a very nice trade. Although O-Cab would’ve been a suitable SS option next year, JJ is better. Unfortunately, we still have two more infield positions to fill and an All-Star catcher to re-sign. Here’s hoping they bring in a legit 3B and give the 2B job to *gasp* Alexi Casilla.
Unless you want to see “getting after it” get picked off at third again.
The Twins promised they would open up the checkbook a little if they got a new Stadium. Well, the new Stadium is now here, so they better go after someone like a Roy Halladay or they will prove themselves to be liars.
This means we get to watch Delmon’s plodding defense in LF and his horrible lack of plate discipline for another year or two. Yay.
If Span needs a few days off in a row this coming year due to a muscle pull or the like, who do they play in CF? Cuddy? LNP? While Kubel is the primary DH and a back up in LF & RF, they still need someone to back up CF or pinch run on occasion. Will Pridie be given a chance in spring training or will they try to pick up someone on the cheap?
So does daylight savings not exsist in Star Tribune Land? Anyway this is a great trade. I loved watching Go-Go in the field but certainly not at the dish. He always looked overmatched. Anyways lets see the Twins FO keep making strides to get this ball club to the World Series. Time for a #1 or #2 starter maybe a Vet. 3 or 4 and a 3B and I will be a happy Twins fan. Good to see you back Howard!
Open letter to BS : Baker’s a stiff. Sign Lackey if Angel’s don’t.. and do everything in your power to trade for Roy Halladay (with Baker included in the deal). And don’t talk to me about payroll…there is NO excuse it shouldn’t be over $100m for next several yrs..WAY over. We need O Dawg at 2b too as well as Figgins at 3B..forget whether they’re Type A FA’s. Make a commitment to win for once in the Twins history and do it now.
Nice move on the Twins’ part. I enjoyed watching Gomez play outfield, but it got old watching him flail at 0-2 sliders in the dirt.
Maybe an incentive based contract for Crede to ease Valencia into the Bigs. With Slowey back and perhaps signing Pavano…..pretty decent, folks. Take a look around the Central, the Twins are the team to beat.
Gomez is just too much of a spaz for the Twins. It is hard for me to imagine he’ll ever dependably be a net gain asset on the team. He belongs on a team that can give him 500 ABs for a couple of years…Pirates or Nationals or Rochester in other words.
By the way, the Dazzle Man is also really big on talking about how the Twins do things the right way….despite the more than Mijares, Casilla, Delmon and Go Go antics.
it’s only a “nice move” if there is A LOT more to come. It should be obvious to all now that the WS is over that the Twins weren’t close this yr..the Phil’s were close and the Twins aren’t the Phils.
Follow this move up with much more and we’ll see…until then, Mauer and I are watching..with a careful eye.
I hope this is the start of great news for Twins fans. I hope they are convincing Joe Mauer that they are serious about winning too.
Right on Gp440, see my previous post above
This is a fly ball pitching staff, with now a well below average defensive OF - not a good combination in my mind. They were 5th in runs scored in all of baseball last year - they need pitching and D (and Hardy will likely help the infield D), but this OF D will be well, well below average in zone coverage. That is not a good combination with a fly ball pitching staff. Lots of bloops and gappers will now be hits, that would not have with Gomez in center and Span in left. The starters were one of the worst in the league in ERA last year, and this is not likely to help things (unless they all learn how to pitch differently).
I love the acquisition (just not the price in terms of D), I was just hoping the Twins would try to play some OF defense next year. That does not look very likely now. Just ask Washburn what happens to your ERA when you go from a great defensive team to a terrible defensive team….
The answer mike.. is to change some of the pitching staff…as i stated above..to ease the of defensive liabilities.
Where’s Baker, Howard?
Yeah GP440, if they don’t go trade for Halladay (a pitcher that will likely command a salary similar to Johan’s that we couldn’t pay) they are liars. Be a little bit realistic.
Erik, hopefully he will be in Toronto next season along with a few others..and Halladay will be here.
kirby, if they don’t, then who needs them?
I for one will wash my hands of em’ after 48 yrs.
i’ll pass on CHone figgins…
just so the Twins don’t pass on him Branden.
I do feel bad because I like him — he’s so boyishy cute with his love for the game.
Not much out there at second other than Hudson. Can’t see LA parting with him though. Beltre the best FA available at third. I feel like we had this discussion last year… Hardy/Beltre/O Hudson. At least we actually got one of ‘em this time, and it’s barely November! Hope this isn’t the last I hear of the Twins before opening day ‘10.
It would be great if the Twins could find a way to trade for Ryan Zimmerman, would be the perfect fit at third. But Washigton wouldn’t let him go without asking for too much in return.
justin we did discuss last yr..it was worst off season in Twins history..now they’re forced to do more this yr because of it.
I still think Figgins at 3B and we shall soon see about O Dawg..if Dodgers resign him then we’ll have to look elsewhere but until then, he should be the guy for 2B on our radar. I was never a Beltre guy, but if Twins signed him I wouldn’t complain.
Dumping more talent into fixing the shortstop hole. Didn’t we just do that a few months ago? I sure hope this works out, I’m not at all fond of the short term trades of our young guys for guys like OC who play a few months and are gone.
Steve, exactly, so Figgins is the way to go.
Hey Howard, thanks again for representing the true Twins fans out here..sometimes I feel like I’m alone out in the wilderness.
How about Chad Tracy, he has played some third base (awful), but he is now a free agent
It seems like most of us like the deal, mainly because Gomez had too many deficiencies and Hardy has shown he can play defense and drive in runs. At worst it sounds like a wash of .230 hitters. But does anyone from Milwaukee have any insights as to why Hardy dropped off so drastically last summer. I watched a few of their games and he really looked lost at times at the plate.
I’ll miss Gomez for his mutil-faceted entertainment value and freakish speed, but this is a great deal for the Twins for many reasons. None of the Brewers fans I know are happy at all that they only got Gomez for Hardy.
Interesting to see how Delmon responds to this vote of confidence from management.
Thoughts on who that fifth OF might be next year if it comes from within the organization?
Howard,
I don’t know that the Twins ever really believed Gomez would be an “impact” offensive player.I know that is what they tried to sell the public when BS got cornered into taking what he could salvage for Johan.I think they DID believe Delmon could eventually be an impact offensive player,and the fact that DY is now all but assured to be the regular LF’er confirms that belief.
I like this trade and I like what Smith said about Delmon today.Youngs first season with the Twins wasn’t all that far off from what he posted in Tampa the year before.Last year he dealt with the death of his mother as well as being platooned.
I saw two things during the last six weeks of the season that give me great hope for Delmon Young.He showed promise at the plate,and for the first time as a Twin he looked happy to be here.The smile I saw on Youngs face at the end of the year gives me hope that he may finally live up to the hype he dragged with him from Tampa.
I do like your thinking on the Twins adding another legitimate starter.If the Twins want to run with the big dogs come playoff time,they need to address the front end of the rotation.Baker,Slowey,Blackburn and so on would work much better on slot lower on the pitching ladder IMO.Figgins would be great,but that might be aiming a liitle too high.But that is what the Hot Stove League is all about right? Glad to see your post at any rate.
Mark–
While I’d love to see Lackey and Halladay in Twins uniforms, you are out of your mind if you think 1, much less 2, of them will be in the rotation next year.
My goals for the Twins in the offseason:
1. Sign Mauer to a long term deal (probably in the 23-26 million/year range)
2. Find a 3B that can hit so Punto/Gomez at 2B is your only out in the line up.
3. Find a #1/#2 starter, so you can pick between the other 6 guys for the #2-#5 spots in the rotation.
Doing those things will run the Twins payroll in the $90-100 million dollar range which is probably too high, but a reasonable request in the new stadium.
Howard,
Best list of potential free agents out there at the moment is on Cot’s Baseball Contracts (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/05/2010-free-agents.html); it even includes type-A and type-B designations. Some of these guys have already been traded, though. Based on the list, I’d think the Twins have a better chance of improving at second rather than third via free agency, which might mean Punto at third next year. (I think Crede’s probably not going to be re-signed.)
As for the trade, I think Hardy will do fine as a #7 hitter (his career OBP is almost identical to Punto’s). If his back holds up, he’ll help keep the offense and defense together.
Just a thought…Do you think BS is going to keep OC and Hardy, with Hardy playing 3rd? If not, who is going to bat 2nd with OC gone? I don’t think it wise to stick Hardy in the 2 hole.
Not really happy about the Gomez trade, as I’d prefer him in the outfield over Span or Young. Congrats to Span on a nice year but I don’t see it continuing. Hardy is a nice addition but Gomez will be a premier outfielder. I’m also going to respond to all the posters on here who seem to think we should try to compete with the Yankees on salary. That’s ridiculous, and it’s certainly not the Twins fault that we don’t spend 300 million a year on players salaries. If you want to be indignant about something (and so many of you clearly will be indignant until the Twins win the World Series) complain about the lack of a salary cap. The fact that the Twins don’t spend like the Yankees is the strength of this organization, not it’s weakness. MLB baseball needs to come up with a salary system so that all teams can compete. And, one last thing, just because we have a new stadium does not mean we are in the same category as the Yankees in terms of revenue.
Good to hear from you again Howard, just talking Twins baseball again feels so good.
Anybody else think the O.C. would be a great 2nd baseman? We would still have someone to bat in the two hole.
Trade Delmon Young plus prospect for Brandon Webb.
Sign free agent center fielder.
Sign Crede.
Sign Pavano and Mahay
Win World Series
(Mauer won’t sign until after he becomes a free agent).
“Not much out there at second other than Hudson. Can’t see LA parting with him though.”
Orlando Hudson was benched by the Dodgers, when Ronnie Belliard was added to the roster.
Apparently, nobody on this blog noticed.
Hey Howard,
How come Joe and Len III had no steam on Hardy before this?
Is it becuase they are not working the phones or are they focusing on the T-wolves?
I guess OHud did fall off a bit in the second half. I wouldn’t turn him down if he was up for grabs. Sure does look like an upgrade over some combination of casilla/punto/harris. To me, on paper, this team actually looks pretty close. I see a hole at second and a hole at third and a hole in one of the rotation spots, but that’s about it. If they plug two out of the three this team becomes the runaway favorite for the division next year. And btw, how much better does this bullpen look with Neshek back? Nathan/ Neshek/ Raunch/ Guerrier/ Mijares/ Crain/ Liriano look pretty solid to me.
Sirraj, considering that we would have won two of those games were it not for the umpires, I think the addition of Hardy, Morneau, Neshek, Slowey and Bonser would have all helped the Twins out greatly in their playoff series. Three of our key players–our ace, best power hitter and our setup man–were all out for the series. There’s no way you can tell me that having them wouldn’t have changed things considerably.
“Do you think BS is going to keep OC and Hardy, with Hardy playing 3rd?”
No.
Playing Hardy, one of the best defensive shortstops in MLB, at third base in order to keep Cabrera, one of the worst defensive shortstops in MLB, would be a massive mistake.
Add to that the fact that Cabrera isn’t a good offensive player, and isn’t going to get any better at age 36 next year, and there is no reason for OCab to be back in a Twins uniform.
“Here’s hoping they bring in a legit 3B and give the 2B job to *gasp* Alexi Casilla.”
Yup. Give the starting second base job to a guy that hit .202/.280/.259 in over 250 plate appearances last year. That’s a great way to win ball games.
But you are right, we wouldn’t have to worry about him getting picked off third - because there’s a worse chance he’d even be on base to begin with.
A big reason Hudson was benched for Belliard (besides Belliard getting hot at the right time) was because he had performance incentives that would have kicked in had he played more
I agree with everyone who said a #1 starter should be our first priority. There are some free agents that would be interesting - Tim Hudson, Rich Harden, Erik Bedard, & Ben Sheets all have top of the rotation “stuff” and would probably be in the Twins’ price range.
As for infielders, we know Punto will either start at 2B or 3B so we can probably only expect one. There are some solid free agent infielders that might fit our price tag - Placido Polanco 2B, Adam Kennedy 2B/3B, Orlando Hudson 2B, Felipe Lopez 2B, Mark DeRosa 3B.
Some of these guys have injury concerns, but there is definitely talent available if BS is willing to take the risk.
Orlando Hudson
Pre-Allstar Break - .283 Avg, .353 OBP, .426 SLG
Post-Allstar Break - .284 Avg, .363 OBP, .404 SLG
He had a bad September…I know of another guy that’s been like that for the past 2 years but he’s still a good player. That said, I’m more intrigued by Felipe Lopez at 2B than Orlando Hudson.
get so tired of hearing about Twins price range..richest owners in sports..spend the money to compete for a WS title. $100-125m salary would do it..anything less is nonsense.-
Agreed Howard. I’ve been calling for them to trade for Hardy for over a year so the news made me happy. At the same time I’m sad in a sort of unexplainable way that Go-Go’s time in Minny is gone (except for the 6 games a year he’ll get to face the Twins).
Side note: If a Twins pitcher throws anything anywhere near the strike zone to Gomez they should immediately be traded! 
Having watched Hardy most everyday for the past few seasons I think some of issues this season were due to his unhappiness being dropped in the lineup (he liked being #2 ahead of Braun & Prince not a 7th or 8th guy). Plus just the everybody but Joe Mauer actually has a bad season from time to time. He experienced the same thing when he first came up but responded with to huge years.
He reminds me a lot of Greg Gagne. Never going to be a .300/.400 guy but will hit for pop, strong arm & will play a great shortstop.
Can’t help but think this is a good move. Now let’s hope there are a few more solid & 1 big splash move to come.
Harden, Sheets, maybe a real cheap Crede and over course a new deal for Baby Jesus!
Welcome back Howard & Go Twins!
Offer Harden or Bedard an incentive laden deal and trade Perkins, Liriano and if need be Valencia for Ryan Zimmerman. THen you have a lineup of
Span LF
Hardy SS
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Cuddyer RF
Kubel DH
Zimmerman 3B
Young LF
Punto 2B
Bedard/Harden SP
Baker SP
Blackburn SP
Slowey SP
Pavano/Duensing SP
What about Jose Lopez. Seattle has been rumored willing to trade him. 25 year old 2nd baseman with pop in his bat. He is under contract through 2011 at about 2.5 mil per. He has had terrible numbers at Safeco field but strong numbers away, which is a reason they would be willing to move him. I dont know what it would take to get him but maybe we throw them Liriano, Harris or Cassila(mainly becasue we wouldnt need them) and a prospect. Lopez has a very Twins friendly contract which would allow us some room to take a gamble on a guy like Harden or Bedard.
The reason I say Liriano is becasue I think Duensing made a strong case to be a starter next year. If we want to aquire a front end starter I dont think Liriano would be happy pitching from the pen. Keeping Perkins would allow us to start him in the pen and give us an option should a starter get hurt.
I’d like to thank Orlando Cabrera for his brief stint with the team. He seemed like a class act with the Twins.
Can’t wait to see what Young can do knowing he will start everyday.
Alas, an .190 hitter is destined to bat 2nd in the lineup (we all know the second baseman HAS to bat second in any Gardenhire lineup.
Since the trade deadline, Bill Smith has done an excellent job, in my opinion.
Punto at second is something Twins fans are going to have to get used to! If you improve the bats around him, you can live with the .229/.289/.598. He is the best defensive second baseman/infielder on the team and he is the one guy that Gardy will not replace - so deal with it. As for Figgins, the Angels are going to keep him. You would need 5 years at 9-12 million per to pry him away and until Mauer is signed and sealed, this team won’t go there.
I think this makes sense–Gomez will stick around in the big leagues for a while with team after team hoping that they can somehow harness his “raw talent”. But I don’t expect it will ever happen and he’ll never achieve anything beyond journeyman status.
He was a good outfielder who can’t hit. And in Delmon we’re left with a good hitter who isn’t a very good outfielder. So personally I’d still answer the phone if a GM thought his late season offense was a sign of things to come.
I actually think that Cabrera could fill the role at third base–if he can come to grips with the fact that he’s just not a major league shortstop anymore.
Pavano seems to be as good as anybody on the free agent pitchers list. Bring him back and challenge Blackburn to become the big game pitcher that we need (he seems to be best equipped to fill that role).
I think last year we learned that while Mauer and Morneau are great players–they are not great leaders. We’ve got to have some veteran presence in the lineup and in the pitching staff.
If Pavano and OC aren’t coming back we need to find appropriate replacements.
Nice start BS. Now sign John Lackey.
I’d love to see the twins take a flyer on Harden, pass on Pavano, and give valencia a chance at the start of the season to take the 3b job. If that doesn’t work, pick up someone like Hank Blalock that used to play 3rd regularily.
As far as the pen is concerned, Bonser and Neshek help but can we really trust Bonser? Go get someone! How about Soriano from the braves?
hey Robert,
What part of the Pohlad’s are the richest ownership in all of sports DONT you get?
oh and one other thing that you missed Robert. I’m not talking about matching the Yankees payroll..in fact much less than that..$100-125m is what i said.
And i laugh at your comment about the strength of the Twins has always been having a low payroll. Seriously? Earth to Robert!
Glad we got Hardy, but I’m really gonna miss Gomez…
Also, while I’m sad, my wife is crushed. I just told her, and she responded with “WHAT!?” and shuffled back to bed.
Well, Bill Smith sure isn’t opposed to making deals. I think the Hardy trade was a good gamble. I thought for sure the Brewers would want pitching, but they needed someone to replace Cameron. A by-product of the trade is that the Twins still have Perkins as a minor trade chip. Picking up Cuddyer’s option was the right thing to do.
As for free agents, don’t expect the Twins to go after pricey Type A free agents. Someone like Bedard or Harden would be worth taking a flyer on.
I still think the Angels will keep Chone Figgins just because he fits like a glove in Mike Scoscia’s system, but if not, rumor has it that Kenny Williams in Chicago has tried to trade for him several times. Even though Chicago traded Josh Fields and Chris Getz to the Royals for presumable third baseman Mark Teahan, I think Kenny Williams would have no trouble moving Teahan to the outfield if he could get Figgins. So if the Angels pass on Figgie, it might be another situation where the Twins and White Sox compete over a play-making player.
If we’re solid at 3rd I can live with Punto at 2nd. If we’re solid at 2nd I can live with Punto at 3rd.
AG - maybe the Mariners would throw in Sila with Lpoez.
“What part of the Pohlad’s are the richest ownership in all of sports DONT you get?”
What YOU don’t get, is that there are more worthy “charities” in which the Pohlads can “donate” their money than to waste it on the Twins.
jon, sell the team if you’re not in it to win..then they can commit 100% of their time and money to charity
Nothing in this world is more important than the Minnesota Twins!
then act like the richest owners in all of sports and field a winning team.
I am sad to see O Cabrera go–thought his leadership picked up the Twins in Sept. (At least Cuddyer option was picked up). Twins need veteran leaders–Mauer doesnt seem to do it–Cuddyer does.
Living in Maryland–very familiar with Eric Bedard!! Dont sign Bedard–he will bring back memories of Kyle Lohse–but WORSE. Harden is injury prone. Twins need a #1 starter–Doc Halladay or Lackey–not another 3-5 starter like Baker or Blackburn both of whom are probably better than Harden or Bedard.
I would also like to see Crede resigned–until Valencia can handle 3B.
DAM
they need BOTH Halladay and Lackey.
“jon, sell the team if you’re not in it to win”
There are potential buyers in Las Vegas and other high-roller areas…….but probably a shortage of billionaires in Minnesota, who would like to buy the small-market Twins.
jon,
I don’t buy that..they could sell that team in 10 minutes to someone and make a fortune..if that’s all they’re interested in, why wait? They have no commitment to the Twins winning that’s obvious
“they could sell that team in 10 minutes to someone and make a fortune..if that’s all they’re interested in, why wait? They have no commitment to the Twins winning that’s obvious”
If, as you say, they are NOT interested in making a fortune, and NOT committed to winning, wtf are they interested in?
What Minnesota billionaire would want to buy the Twins in order to raise the payroll to a competitive level and lose money as a result?
Finding THAT guy will take you a lot longer than 10 minutes.
I have to agree with Howard, it is sad to see Gomez go. The kid was an obvious spark for the team, but I think once Span asserted himself as the everyday lead-off man, the writing was on the wall.
If you look at Young and Gomez, the two are almost equal at the plate when they are struggling. But if both excel, you have a power hitter we desperately need in Young…and a leadoff man we already have in Gomez.
I wish him all the best with the Brewers, and will look foward to see what Hardy can bring to the table in 2010.
That leaves 3B, 2B, and a few spots in the rotation as question marks. Any word on if they feel Valencia is ready for the hot corner?
On a side note, any guesses as to what Hardy’s number will be as a Twin?
I’ll give you a hint, it most likely will NOT be his current one.
Defensive numbers are overrated. The Twins were awful fundamentally this past year, but nationally they are still though of as the “fundamentally sound Twins.”
I will miss Carlos, but don’t let the statisticians like Aaron Gleeman tell you we will lose 20 runs this year with Span in CF. I’m sure he has some stat to back it up, but that’s not how baseball works.
Who is this markoutstate character? We all know the Pohlad’s are the richest owners in sports. We also know they run the Twins like a business and aren’t going to increase salary to the point that they are losing money. Quit with the stupid demands. Lackey and Halladay are NOT going to be pitching for the Twins next year, get over it. If you don’t like the way they are run, go find a new team to root for and a new blog to gripe on. The fact is that the Twins DO have a price range on players, and they are NOT going to become a free spending team like the Yankees. If you want to cheer for a team that buys up every good player in free agency, go cheer for the Yankees, because the Twins are not going to do it.
thanks B good, because that’s exactly what im going to do. If you want to enjoy this nonsense be my guest. As for me, I’m sick of it. You people that love mediocre baseball, I just don’t know what the thrill is for you. I want teams who choose excellence as their theme. I pity those who have a mind set to just settle.
But even more than that, it’s the idea of being snookered. Your type will follow anyone along like a flock of sheep no matter right or wrong. Good luck with that dude.
“Your type will follow anyone along like a flock of sheep no matter right or wrong.”
Meanwhile, YOUR TYPE will convince the Twins to run their team (business) YOUR WAY.
HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW-HAW
markoutstate,
which teams do you feel are are choosing excellence??
I prefer my way to being a sheep
Until baseball does something about the current mess by creating a salary cap, no matter what the Twins spend, the Yankees will continue to spend three time as much. Paying rediculous salaries doesn’t guarantee a World Series, but not spending guarantees a team that can’t compete. When was the last time a team with a payroll in the bottom 10 won a World Series? Baseball is not fair and no one in baseball seems willing to address this fact.
Twins could get to the point where Yamkees spend only twice as much. We should be at that point now..Phil’s have proven you can give the Yankees all they can handle with a salary range of $100-125m along with smart baseball people in the organization.
I NEVER said spend AS MUCH as Yankees, just spend enough to compete..it’s simple really. for the life of me I don’t know why this is such a hard concept for Twins fans to understand and embrace.
Curious to get some opinions… If the Twins don’t sign a good 3b free agent and if Valenica isn’t ready for another year… where does Brendan Harris stand? He will never be a superstar, but seems he could provide average defense at 3rd while maybe hitting .270, 10-15 HR’s and 20 doubles. What’s wrong with that and why does he seem to be in Gardy’s doghouse - is it that Gardy thinks Harris lacks a physical skill or mental skill/attitude?
What will JJ Hardy’s number be in Minnesota? (I doubt Mauer will give up #7 for him)
“why does he seem to be in Gardy’s doghouse - is it that Gardy thinks Harris lacks a physical skill or mental skill/attitude?”
I don’t know what Gardy thinks (except for a justified preference for Crede’s defense at 3B), but my problem with Harris is two-fold:
1) He constantly takes good pitches for strike three, then acts like the umpire is responsible.
2) Defensively at 3B, he doesn’t appear to be prepared for any non-routine plays and appears unable to improvise when necessary. Maybe, playing full-time at 3B (and never at SS-2B) will cure that problem.
regaring Harris - I think the guy just needs playing time to figure things out. he has potential at the plate, and showed signs at 3B and sometimes up the middle as well. however, I think he should be tendered a contract (hopefully on the cheap) and sent to AAA where he can play everyday and work with a more neutral coach (which is waht Gomez should have been able to do, but I digress). Gardy will not play him or foster a good working relationship as long as he plays the defense he does (and as long as the likes of Punto and Tolbert are on the team).
Sane, outside of a great FA signing or Valencia really stepping up, I’d like to see Harris get the nod over (fill in the blank: Tolbert, Punto, Buscher, etc). I think you are right on the concerns above, but would take a chance that staying in one primary position and getting 500+ at bats might cure some of the problems. I guess I’d take his warts over the others…
JJ Hardy said he would like to bat second in front of Mauer. Is this guy a screwball? He has 5 stolen bases in nearly 3,000 plate appearances. Last season he hit .229. He should consider himself lucky if he bats ninth.
What happens when a pop fly is hit between the plodding slow footed Hardy and the waddling Delmon?
What happens when a pop fly is hit down the third base line? The play that a swift shortstop dashes out and catches? I don’t want to watch the slow footed Hardy go plodding after that.
Those are plays that a guy like Jason Bartlett will make routinely, flying all around field. It’s not going to happen next year for the Twins. Those balls are going to drop if Hardy is at shortstop.
Gardy will only hold his nose so long. Punto could be back at shortstop before the end of May.
Hardy to 3B then dammit
For those of you that say that Hardy is slow, hey, hold your opinions until you actually watch him play. He is a very good defensive player. I’m not sold on his offense, but defensively, he is a good fit for this team.
Well our chance at a decent healthy defense 3b with pop just opened up. Pedro Feliz whose option wasnt picked up from the phillies. .266, 12 hr, 82 rbis and a uzr/150 of 5.0, would be a decent 1 yr stopgap and would cost around a crede cost, with a much better health chance.
Bunting Twins- you do realize Hardy is one of the best defensive SS in the league, right?
Mike, how does baseball work, then? If you don’t trust people that watch every game, and rate defensive play (play by play, written down), who do you trust to judge defense? Gomez is a great fielder, and Young is a terrible fielder. I don’t know how anyone can look at the D and not see a huge dropoff from what it could have been if Gomez played instead of Young.
Why the hatred of stats, exactly?
D is waaaaay undervalued, and I think we’ll see that next year.
“D is waaaaay undervalued”
Agreed.
However, a defensive upgrade at SS should compensate for a defensive degradation in left field. (or a defensive degradation on the bench where Gomez was positioned in September and October)
sane, I’m not sure on that, but I hope you are right. I also hope the offensive upgrade from Gomez and OCab to Hardy and Young is big and real. I just wouldn’t hold out much hope that the OF D will be even adequate right now. Clearly, the SS D is way better. This is the kind of move you need to make when you trade a young, good SS with no one in the minors to take his place….
From Sid’s column this morning:
“I would like to have Cabrera back, and I told Billy that. He’s one guy that I would like to still make an effort to sign. You need good players, and Cabrera’s one of them.”
Gardenhire said he could put Cabrera at second and Nick Punto at third: “If we get enough good players that can hit a bit we can do some damage.”
Interesting.
Yowser. Punto’s bat at third? That huge offensive (and probably defensive) drop off nearly makes up for Mauer’s dominance at catcher. Indeed, put Mauer’s stats at 3B and Puntos at catcher, and you look about league average. Why would you do that?
And Cabrera, he was just not that good at O or D last year. What is the obsession with bad players and this manager?
Is Cabrera willing to do that? Might not be a bad idea if he’ll embrace the idea. Most SS can transtion to 2B pretty well if they are willing to put the effort into it
“they need BOTH Halladay and Lackey.”
Why stop there? I’m sure with enough money and prospects we could also get Santana back. And then apply the same formula for CC and Lester. Ticket prices, hot dogs and beer may have to be raised slightly though.
MWW: I think its foolish to compare one’s offensive numbers to the position they play on defense. There is more than one way to build a squad. It is silly to compare Mauer to other catchers. It is correct to compare him to other #3 hitters in the league, for example.
I must not have made my point. Every position has to hit (not pitcher). The Twins have a huge advantage because their catcher can hit. If they put Punto at 3B, they lose a lot of that advantage. Batter order is not really relavent, because you can bat anyone anywhere you want in the order, but you need a catcher and 3B.
And, that was my point. Assuming the Twins are leage average at every position but C and 3B, if you have Mauer, you have a huge advantage over other teams. If you then put a terrible hitter (compared to anyone, let alone 3B) at 3B, you will lose much of your advantage.
MWW: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. You need guys that can play both ways. Loading up your line up with only hitters is a recipe for disaster. This years yankees are the exception, not the rule. And actually, it took them dropping some serious coin on pitching to get back to the show. The line up is more or less the same one that didn’t get it done for 5 years running. This current Twins squad has more than enough offense to get the job done.
“Loading up your line up with only hitters is a recipe for disaster. This years yankees are the exception, not the rule.”
I hate the Yankees, but Teixeira, A-Rod, Molina, Cano, Jeter, Gardner, Cabrera and Swisher are not defensive liabilities.
Sane: thats exactly my point. Teixeira was a huge defensive upgrade. A-Rod is a gold glover. Jeter had his best defensive year in a decade. This, and thier investment in pitching had just as much to do with them finally getting back over the hump than thier hitting did.
There is no rule that says certain positions have to be power hitters, ect. I’d say its much more impotant that your 3-4-5 hitters get it done, regardless of the position they play. Too many people, fans and front office alike, fall in love with the idea that 3-4-5 needs to be some combo of 1B, 3B and DH
Where did I say ignore D? My posts for the last three days have been about the Twins ignoring OF D. What does that have to do with how bad Punto is as a hitter?
And, I’ve been saying for three weeks that they were 5th in all of MLB in scoring, it isn’t the hitting that needs fixing, but the D. But, that doesn’t mean you give away 3B with Punto (who can’t hit, nor field).
It’s not about positions, its about the whole. You are totally putting words in my mouth and sane’s mouth.
If you are putting Punto on the bench, you are ignoring D. He is most definitely one of the three best infielders currently on the team.
I’ve read your posts about the OF defense, but at the same time, you’ve said everybody has to hit. Gomez can’t do that. Balance. Its all about striking the perfect balance of pitching, hitting and defense. The offense, even with Punto in it, holds up thier end of the triangle, and has for the past few seasons.
The defense, even with Delmon in it, holds up thier part..it just doesn’t look pretty..
The pitching staff needs the most improvement to get the triangle into balance
mike and Fcmlefty,
How do you guys feel bout the traditional D view of strong up the middle?
Don’t lose sight of Fcmlefty’s point, which is that most teams cannot afford to start too many players who lack proficiency on either offense (Punto, Tolbert, Gomez, Casilla) or defense (Harris, Buscher, Young, Casilla). The Twins, unlike the Yankees, can’t overcome skill gaps with Cy Young candidates and a HOF murderer’s row. And even the Yankees had to pull Matsui from the field and limit the exposure to Posada, right?
FCMlefty,
“Loading up your line up with only hitters is a recipe for disaster. This years yankees are the exception, not the rule.”
I read that to mean that you thought that this years’ Yankees loaded up their lineup with ONLY hitters, but were the exception to the “recipe for disaster” result.
If that WASN’T your point, then I need reading comprehension instruction.
bop,
I agree. He has a very valid point. I’m of a belief that D is 50% of the equation. But the economics of the game are such that not every team can afford plus O & D at every position. That’s nirvanna. The traditional guiding light has been “strong up the middle on D” and “strong on the corners on O”. That’s why guys like Bucsher and Everett get paychecks. That’s why guys like Mauer, Hardy, Hunter and Beltre are so valuable. That’s also why Punto has more value at 2B rather than 3B. I think this factor should carry more weight in any debate.
What i thought Telly Hughes was part of the deal. Screw that trade then.
Sane: I could have worded my statement much better….
My point was that the Yankees finally got back into balance this year with thier pitching investments.
Of course, they have a bit easier time with balance when they can afford players whom are more than good two way players - they have several who could win the silver slugger and the gold glove for thier position.
Howard I like Chone Figgins as well and another interesting name on that list of 3B’s is Troy Glaus he’s only 33.
Joe Posnannski had an interesting thought exercise on his blog about 2 months ago about a low budget team fielding the best defensive team in the league. Since D is so undervalued, could a team get by with a great hitter at one or two positions, and then spend your money on light hitters who play great D. Would a team like that, assuming average pitching, win more games than a team that tried to pay for hitting instead?
No one knows, but it is an interesting question. I think fcmlefty and I disagree about Punto’s defensive prowess, for one thing. I don’t think he’s all that good at 3B or SS or 2B.
fcmlefty, one reason the pitchers were good in NYY land this year is that their D was much better (that, and they bought some good pitching).
I certainly agree 100%, it’s about run scoring and run prevention. Since the Twins were 5th in runs scored this year, I was hoping their offseason would be about replacing some players with better D (which they appear to have done at SS, at the expense of LF/CF). Hopefully they’ll also add some real starting pitching (and quit worrying about veteran presence, and worry instead about skill - Livan Hernandez has plenty of veteran presence…..).
Howard… my prelim list of free agents, and the Twins priority list… let me know what you think please (if you’re still looking this deep into a blog)
1. Chone Figgans 2B (3B as a saftey net for Valencia if he’s not ready)
2. Orlando Hudson 2B (the 2nd best number 2 hitter available, and it gets us one step closer to NO PUNTERRIBLE!)
3. Rich Harden P (we need an inning eating top 3 starter who is going to save the bullpen) He is going to probably run about 12 million a year though
4. Melvin Mora 3B (not a great glove, but he would be an outstanding number 2 hitter in this line up with a .400 OB% and decent pop.
5. Tim Hudson P (I can’t see the Braves pulling the trigger on that huge option of his, and I think if he’s healthy which it appears, he is easily the best pitcher in free agency) 10 million plus incentives
6. Jon Garland P (another inning eater, but more for the middle to bottom side of the rotation… and he’s probably going to cost about 8.5 million a year or more.
7. Jason Marquis P (I would have him higher on the list, but something tells me that Colorado is going to do everything they can to keep him.) 5 years 12-15 per
8. Felipe Lopez IF (think Punto with ability… lots of ability)
9. Carl Pavano P (I normally don’t want guys that we can dump, but there was something about the way he handled himself last season, and especially in the playoffs with this team that made me think he could have bonded well, and become a solid back end mentor. Having him as the 5th starter makes this rotation pretty damn good
10. Ben Sheets P (he’s not on most of the free agent lists because of being out last year, but if he’s healthy he’s an ace… I would trade for a guy before him, but if we can’t get a guy like the kid from FLA, or Halliday, or even taking a look at Brandon Webb or Roy Oswalt… Ben Sheets could be a hell of a consolation prize, and it’s in his best interest to sign a deal with a mutual option, or a vested option contract for his health.
some others to think about
JJ Putz, Fernando Rodney, Jarrod Washburn (less than 7 million a year or no deal!), Aubrey Huff (we have wanted him for 5 freaking years and now he’s out there again), Corey Patterson OF (we need a bench OF, and at this stage in Patterson’s career he would be a great late inning base runner, and a solid backup in case of an injury, but not a guy we would have to waste at bats on like GOMEZ was,
I wanted them to go after Hudson 1st and Lopez 2nd last year…didn’t happen…it’s my same wish THIS year and it won’t happen cause Gardy has to play Punto and that’s the ONLY spot where he’s not below average defensively. Of course, Gardy is blind to his lover’s flaws, but Punto doesn’t have the arm for SS anymore (Morneau saved him bunches) and therefore doesn’t have it for 3B either. On top of that, corner IF and OF spots are supposed to be run producers. Punto had the WORST OPS for ANY AL player with 425 or more PAs. THAT doesn’t get deposited at a corner spot unless Utley is at 2B. I know Gardy said he doesn’t require offense from Punto (which is ridiculous, BTW) but if you don’t require offense, but him at 2B and get a real 3B.
Expression - thanks for mentioning Ben Sheets, he’s a guy I think could be a match for the Twins. He’s got question marks, but has been a proven stopper in the past. And he fits the mold of the kind of deal the Twins can make I think (see Crede last year).
Glad to see Billy Smith take out two of my questions with one move (click my name to see, also find it funny how me and Joe C. appear to be thinking with the same brain this offseason). If he can get an “ace” now, I’d already view it as a productive offseason in improving the team for Target Field.
If Bill Smith gets an ACE for this team, and finds a way to make Punterrible a bench player… I will forgive the Delmon Young mistake, and the Santana fiasco and I will quit referring to him as Special Needs Bill Smith.
Until then… he needs someone to make sure he’s not to be fully trusted.
“also find it funny how me and Joe C. appear to be thinking with the same brain this offseason”
Obviously you two possess one brain fewer than required.
In Sept. Gomez was a late inning defensive replacement. Pick-up a Coco Crisp or Patterson for that role and Delmon slump protection. What is a true ace? Blackburn pitched like one outside of his post All-star funk. Everyone forgets that Slowey was on pace for a twenty game season!
voice—
If you don’t know what an ace is then I will have to remind you of the following Twins pitchers who have been aces and compare them to the people who were not aces.
Frank Viola, Jim Kaat, Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Jim Perry, Jerry Koosman, and some guy named Johan Santana… they were all aces, and this guy named Walter Johnson if you want to get technical was probably the best player in franchise history times 2 (sorry Joe Mauer)
Al Williams, Scott Erickson, Kevin Tapani, Brad Radke, Kevin Slowey, Nick Blackburn (as much as I love the guy), Mudcat Grant, Les Straker, Mark Portugal (when he was with us), John Smiley (same), Scott Baker, Carl Pavano, and the list goes on to every other pitcher since basically the beginning of baseball through the current roster IS NOT AN ACE!
You want one guy that you are going to put up against anyone on anyone’s staff in any stadium and know you are going to win the game.
And Liriano, Perkins, and Boof Bonser probably shouldn’t be considered major league starters… kind of like modern day John Butcher, Darrel Jackson, and John Verhoven.
Eric Bedard? Are you kidding? Look at his injury history and tell me you want the Twins to sign this guy. Yes, he has “top of the rotation” stuff, but does that matter if he’s on the DL for half of every season? No, thanks.
And I considered Brad Radke an ace in his prime. If he’d had a team around him early in his career, he could have been dominant.
