The MVP is not a lifetime achievement award
Posted on November 22nd, 2009 – 9:59 PMBy Howard
Today, Joe Mauer should win the American League’s MVP award. We all know all the reasons why that should happen, so I won’t waste many words with a review.
Derek Jeter should finish second.
And all the chatterers who talk about this as some sort of injustice because of what Jeter has meant to the Yankees over the years should simply shut up. Most of the noise is coming from the usual suspects, the Yankees fans who call talk radio and sound as if they still reek of champagne from their post-World Series celebrations of a few weeks back. A New York state of mind can be a very tiresome thing.
Fortunately, the New York media haven’t been fanning the flames of the myopic — at least according to my Google checking — although there was a reference in an mlb.com story noting that no Yankee has won a major post-season award since A’Rod “took home the MVP in 2007.” It’s going on two years now. Maybe ESPN can fix that.
Keep in mind that Jeter did have an MVP-caliber year in 2009 — .335 average, .406 on-base percentage, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove, 103 victories during the regular season, World Series championship (decided after the votes were cast). By the numbers, it was his best season since 2006, when he finished second in the balloting to Justin Morneau, an outcome that was much more debatable that what happened this season.
Joe Mauer: .365 average, .444 OBP, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove. More walks than strikeouts. Did all that after missing the first month of the season and while playing catcher. Find a measure and Mauer had the kind of season that he shouldn’t be expected to duplicate, even after he signs the long-term contract that the Pohlads can’t afford not to give him.
Imagine if the numbers were reversed and someone in Minnesota wrote what appeared in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks before the end of the season:
No one would argue that Mr. Jeter’s statistics are better than those of Minnesota catcher Joe Mauer, the current favorite in the MVP sweepstakes, who is leading the American League in batting (around .370), on-base percentage and slugging average. For that matter, there are several players, particularly Detroit’s Miguel Cabrera, who are outhitting Mr. Jeter in batting average and have better power numbers.
The case for Mr. Jeter as American League MVP is being made by more subjective arguments. “How do you measure the value of inspiration and professionalism?” asks Marty Appel, author of “Munson: The Life and Death of a Yankee Captain.” “Some people will argue that intangibles don’t exist, but in the ninth inning of close games everybody believes in them.”
If someone made that appeal of behalf of Mauer, or most anyone else for that matter, they would be hooted out of cyberspace. But we’re going to be too classy for that.
But what Twins fans should admire about Jeter is that, based on what he’s said, the MVP vote won’t matter not a bit. He has another World Series championship as part of his legacy. It is the position that I’m sure Mauer will take when he has the third or fourth best numbers in baseball and his team has a legitimate shot at winning the World Series. (That team better be the Twins, of course.)
Jeter will get his: In Cooperstown five years after he retires.
200 Responses to "The MVP is not a lifetime achievement award"
A lot of times, these discussions revolve around who doesn’t deserve the award more than who does deserve it; It’s a lot easier to talk about why someone doesn’t deserve an award than why they do
This season, Jeter, Teixeira, Mauer, and Greinke have all had MVP seasons, truly. However, Mauer has simply been that much better than the other deserving candidates. This isn’t a situation like the NL Cy Young where all three guys are pretty close, other than Greinke, it isn’t close for MVP. Mauer is the clear choice.
preachin to choir, Howard.
Yes, that’s one victory the Twins can claim over the Yankees in 2009.
I fail to see how anyone could NOT rank Joe Mauer first.
Mauer led the league in average, OBP, and slugging– a ridiculously impressive feat in its own right, but coupled with the fact that he did it playing Gold Glove defense at the most physically demanding position in baseball, it’s a no-brainer.
Derek Jeter’s season shocked me; I thought he was on the decline and he cranked out a remarkable season. If I’d had a crystal ball back on March 30 and seen Jeter’s final stats for 2009, I’d have said he damn well better have won the MVP… until someone showed me Mauer’s, of course.
Derek Jeter got very unlucky that Mauer put up those numbers the same year that he did, because they’re both MVP seasons.
However, even if you score 140 points in Fantasy Football, you still lose that week if you’re playing the guy who scored 160… even if the next-closest team failed to crack 100.
Jeter’s season was remarkable, but that’s not good enough to cut it this year. The MVP award is based on single seasons, not on careers. We’re not talking about letting Tim Wakefield onto the All-Star team (which was ridiculous in its own right), we’re talking about the League MVP.
And his name is Joe Mauer.
Funny, I talked about the exact same thing at my blog. http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/a-theory-on-derek-jeter-and-the-mvp/
PS: In case you were wondering, no, I did not steal the idea from Howard. The post on my blog was up 10 hours before Howard’s.
Sure hope the young Mr. Mauer gets it.
But I’ve got this uneasy feeling….
Can we be rightfully offended if it isn’t unanimous?
If it’s a lone NY voter (or two) who spoils the unaniminity can we send some sort of group communication chastising him/her for the vote?
I’m a Yankee fan and even I admit that it’s a no brainer that Mauer deserves the MVP. I don’t think that there are too many knowledgeable baseball fans out there who are going to deny that Joe Mauer had perhaps the greatest season of any catcher in the history of the game. Just a tremendous season by a tremendous player.
Jeter has a ton of help around him.
ESPN will fix that? Good grief, ESPN is among other things a bunch of Red Sox fans and they don’t really care about Jeter. At least you noticed the so-called NY media isn’t carrying a torch for him. You forget, there are 2 baseball teams in NY. Second, these awards are decided mainly by voters outside NY. Third, when Morneau beat Jeter for MVP a few years ago, only one of the 2 “NY voters” put Jeter first. So much for NY bias. It helps guys’ national careers to keep Yankees out of these awards.
Nice one Benny
Greetings baseball fans from Kuwait. I can see clearly from over here that all of you are very paasionate about the Twins as I have since I was in Little League way back in the 1970s and I can tell you I saw MVP Rod Carew work magic with a bat in 1977 and this season remnded me of that magical season for Joe Mauer who is the MVP this season sealed by the Division title won over Detroit in game 163 so celebrate fellow Minnesotans and let’s play outdoor baseball in 2010 on our way back to the WS for the 1st time since 1991!
jeter isnt even the second MVP, he cant be, he wasnt even the mvp of the yankees. i would vote for teshara (teixeira) and morales before i voted for jeter.
Get ready for a heretical view.
First, I agree that Joe had a monster year; far better than anyone in the American League, and for that reason, there should be a Player of the Year award and it should be given to Joe unanimously.
However, the MVP selection has so many flaws that it is nearly impossible to justify either Mauer or Jeter or Greinke in the AL or Pujols in the NL, for that matter.
In 2009, the AL team that showed the most improvement over 2008 was the Seattle Mariners. Much of that improvement can be attributed to Franklin Guiterrez. Even though his overall stats aren’t as impressive as Mauer’s, he appears to be the biggest difference maker on the most improved team. The ‘09 Twins showed no improvement at all over 2008 so, despite Joe’s great year, it didn’t make much difference.
Likewise, in the National League, the nod should go to Troy Tulowitzki of the Rockies - same rationale.
MVP should go to the player whose presence makes a significant difference in his team’s improvement, not to everyone’s favorite player or the guy who put up the best stats.
My votes: Guiterrez in the AL; Tulowitzki in the NL.
You used the catcher argument twice in consecutive sentences. The fact that he puts up big numbers as a catcher is much less important than being the leader of the world series champs, so I don’t think it helps the argument (especially enough to be listed twice.) Joe is the MVP, because the Twins would never approached the success they had last year without his bat in the lineup. Yankees are back to being the Yankees with or without Jeter.
Jim, I’m afraid you’ve been drinking too much Maple-juice. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, it just appears to be a severly minority opinion.
But you do bring out the one major flaw of the award: There is not a crystal clear definition of the criteria for the award; each voter has their own idea of what is an “MVP”. But historically it is primarily based on stats and production, combined with team success. Who’s to say the Twins don’t finish in last place without Mauer?
Is it me, or is Jeter perennially in the MVP talks simply because of the “Lifetime Achievement” award?
The same thing happened to Santana when he won his first Cy Young. The media went and picked Curt Schilling to be the obligatory “other guy” in their horse race coverage.
NY writers need to sell NY papers. You don’t do that by agreeing with what everyone else says. You can count on their writers to do whatever it takes to come up with contrarian viewpoints, especially if it plays right in to what NY fans want to believe, anyway.
I’m another one who wants badly to hate Jeter and discount everything he does. I couldn’t do that this year. The guy had a terrific season, offensively AND defensively. It just wasn’t the best season in the league.
His season was good enough that I really don’t think a vote for him would necessarily be a vote reflecting a “lifetime achievement” thing. His season was MVP worthy in most years so a writer voting for him isn’t, in my mind, guilty of voting based on Jeter’s great career. He’s just guilty of voting for the wrong player.
I swear that the word “intangible” was invented by the New York media to try to make Derek Jeter seem like a great baseball player.
One impediment to Mauer winning the MVP is the fact that Sid Hartman says he is a “lock” to win it. Now, I’m certain Sid heard it from his very good personal friend, (insert name), but as Sid is almost invariably wrong, I’d put my money on Jeter winning.
It’s interesting to hear the comments about Jeter and his professionalism… Hey, I think it’s great. I think Jeter is so overrated by the media that he has become so underrated by many fans. As I wrote last night too, his Lifetime Achievement Award will come when he is voted into the Hall of Fame and his numbers will place him in that inner-circle. He has been that good over a long time.
But, check out the OPS’s in 2009 of Jeter and Michael Cuddyer. They are very, very close. And, Michael Cuddyer is incredibly professional. He is the definition of a team player. He put on an incredible display of leadership quality performance when the Twins needed it most while switching positions due to an injury to the Twins other MVP. Aren’t those valuable things too. Doesn’t that scream intangibles? And yet, Cuddyer won’t sniff a first place vote, or probably even a 5th place vote.
And please note, I probably wouldn’t give him a vote at all. I’m just saying that all those things they say about Jeter, there are other players around the league who are professional and provide a lot of intangibles.
Who’s to say the Twins don’t finish in last place without Mauer?
Heetcpa,
One thing I know for certain is that I don’t know anything for certain. We went 16-4 without Morneau. That was probably due to a large variety of reasons but mainly that a lot of guys stepped up after Justin went down. You never know how the team reacts if Mauer weren’t in there all year. We were 11-11 to start the season and played mostly .500 ball after that until September. So my counterpoint is that maybe the Twins win the division easily without Mauer. Based on Maple Grove Jim’s arguement, maybe Cabrerra or Pavano should have been our MVP’s because we played best after adding those guys. It’s a team game and you never know what you would have gotten if you had changed the mix.
Please note, I’m not putting Cuddyer in the same class as Jeter… just trying to make a point…
@ Seth: Wow, I never even thought of comparing Cuddyer to Jeter. I think the reason that Jeter gets so much more hype though, is:
1. He’s been around longer.
2. He’s consistently good.
3. He plays in New York.
4. Due to a combination of the previous three points, he’s well known.
Prior to this past September, Cuddyer was still receiving arguments from critics about how the Twins should dump him.
Kirby Pucket, arguably the most valuable Twin ever, never won the MVP award. When you think about it, the MVP is like a snap shot, like player of the month. Jeter, like PUcket, may be a very valuable player, but never the most valuable over a shorter perior of time.
Take the player off the team and think of how they’d do without him. The team damaged the most is the team with the MVP. The Yankees win 90-95 games without Jeter. The Twins finish third without Mauer. Easy choice.
That’s ok, Mauer will be a Yankee after next season. The Yankees will need to replace Posada then and the Yankee $$$$ will bring him in the fold.
Mauer MVP hands down. We then sign him to a monster contract , one which will force us to trade him in about 3 years. By then his contract will eat up too much of the total payroll and we will be unable to keep anyone else. We should be able to hold up the Yankees for ransom by then. It wont be popular , but the franchise will be a non contender , even in the easiest division in baseball and the only way to be a contender again will be by trading Joe. Mark my words folks , some day we will have to decide if we wanna win 70 games a year with Joe , or win 85 without him. Out title chances rest in the next two years in my opinion. So lets hope the Pohlads address 3rd and 2nd and SP NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Numbers are numbers, however Mauer and Morneau haven’t been very good in the post season at all. I love Mauer but in this case, I have to give the nod to Jeter. His hits are timely and he is a vocal leader. Without Jeter, they don’t win a W.S.
Seth: “I’m just saying that all those things they say about Jeter, there are other players around the league who are professional and provide a lot of intangibles.”
The difference, of course, is that Jeter’s a Yankee. That, by definition, means he’s better than anyone else who might perform similarly for a franchise of lesser importance (which would be EVERY other franchise, but particularly those in fly-over land).
Jeter won the ultimate prize… another world series. so what if Mauer wins it doesn’t change the fact that the Twins with Mauer went 0-11 against the yankees this year. Baseball is a team sport winning an award as a team should count more than winning as an indvidual!
Seth, RU saying that Jeter “does the little things right”? 
Good points Crim,
There is no way to know how a team performs without some random player; it’s all hypothetical - as your point with Morneau out.
That’s why STATS ultimately carry the most weight - they are not subjective like most other criteria. They are what they are.
LOL at carl and wade.
I’m constantly amused by those who assume Mauer will be a Yankee or RedSox in 2011. But then they’ll all fade in to the woodwork when the new contract is announced.
I’m equally amused by naysayers who predict the Twins will not be able to afford to keep him or that this team will become a 70-win team. There’s absolutely nothing to base this on. Revenues for the Twins are going to spike like they never have before over the next few years. They’ll be able to afford TWO Joe Mauers (which is convenient, since Morneau will be commanding a similar contract in a couple of years) and with the additional investments they’re now making in the international and domestic talent markets, there’s really no reason to assume they’re going to abruptly become bottom feeders.
But hey… never let facts get in the way of a good dose of negativity. It has pretty much become ingrained in the Minnesota culture as ice fishing.
Besides, I just wanted to use the phrase “maple-juice”, because I don’t think it even exists.
Just last week I saw a guy wearing Twins World Series Champions 1991 sweatshirt. Those are getting really out of style.
I don’t want to take anything away from Mauer but it’s just another trophy on his mantle. I want a new sweatshirt.
Wade, you sound like Buster Olney on his ESPN blog today. He compares the Rockies with Helton to the Twins with Mauer. Interesting read though, kind of sheds a “scary” light on the next decade potentially.
All,
I hereby rescind my gratuitous cheap shot at ESPN. If you look at this survey of its baseball folks, 20 of 22 chose Mauer — and Jon Miller can be forgiven because he can do the best imitation ever of Bob Casey introducing Kirby Puckett.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4675311
Miller used to that during Twins-Orioles games in Baltimore back in the day, when he was the Orioles’ radio announcer. It always got Puckett to crack up and the entire Twins dugout to crane necks toward the press box.
If Joe Mauer does not win the MVP, it would be a disgrace, the man is unbelieve, just look at his numbers. Sure Jeter had a great year, but that’s with the Yankees; every player on the Yankee roster has the potential to take home the MVP every year and every player on that team makes everyone around them better. Joe Mauer has a great players hitting around him as well, but even when Morneau was injuried, Mauer still managed to keep the same numbers. Point being Every player on the Yankees is a Yankee, but not every player on the Twins is a Yankee and that is what makes Mauer Special he is great no matter where he plays and that is what an MVP is.
If the MVP’s arent Mauer and Pujols then they’re a sham.
Seth,
On comparing Jeter and Cuddyer, even purists agree that Cuddyer is the better amateur magician, hands down.
i believe that the academy awards gives a lifetime achievement award. maybe jeter can go to the ocars with kate and a-roid and get his award there!
i wonder what we’d be saying about jeter’s career if he had been drafted and played his career with the expos, pirates or royals?
many, many players are either the victim or the beneficiary of their environment.
“Jeter will get his: In Cooperstown five years after he retires.”
Or he can be immortalized earlier, if the Yankees choose to have him embalmed this off-season.
I agree wit GGG about players being victim’s/ beneficiaries of their environment. Have Archie Manning and Joe Montana switch teams and you might be saying “who’s Joe Montana?”
As far as lifetime achievement awards go I have to tell you Jeter didn’t have to play another inning after his 5th season to be a lock for the Hall of Fame.
Don’t be so bitter Twins fans…it’s not very becoming of you.
Joe Mauer is the MVP of the American League. He is making a case for one of the greatest stretches in recent years. I hope he continues doing what he’s doing because he plays the game the right way.
But guess what - that’s what Derek Jeter has been doing for 14 years. Say what you want about him, but he always does and says the right thing. He plays the game hard and rarely makes mistakes. He never gets into trouble off the field. He’s a stand up guy - and oh yeah, he also is a Hall-of-Famer.
Mr. Mauer needs a few more years to reach that goal.
And remember this as Joe gets his MVP this afternoon - I’m pretty sure he would trade it in for one World Series ring.
Mr. Jeter already has 5 and counting.
The best article regarding Jeter was out of Baltimore where the writer pointed out that all the hoopla over Jeter getting the big hit - the one where his 2700 something career hit passed Gehrig - now placed him within 150 of Harold Baines
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/derek_jeter_honored_for_having
Oh well - maybe not Baltimore
“I’m pretty sure he would trade it in for one World Series ring.”
I don’t understand why.
An MVP award is earned.
A World Series ring is purchased by the player’s owner, who also purchased his teammates.
Who contributed more to the Yankee W.S. win?
Jeter?
Or Yankee money which bought Sabathia, Teixeira and Burnett?
And previously bought A-Rod, Matsui and Damon?
sane in espn country that would be considered blasphemy. careful, you are talking about a god!
Jeter’s the third best hitter in his own infield, and he’s not considerably better than the second baseman. The fact that he plays shortstop is mitigated by the fact that he doesn’t play it very well.
How anyone can look at the Yankees and pull out Jeter as the standout is beyond me.
Any legit baseball player would trade all of their personal awards that season for a championship.
I’m sure Mauer will be his awesome humble self to be recognized as MVP, but I’m also sure he would trade that to win the World Series.
heetcpa, Olney’s column comparing Mauer and Helton was disappointingly poorly researched.
There are a couple of MAJOR differences between the Mauer and Helton situations. The age difference was glossed over. Helton will be 37 when his contract is up. It might be a valid comparison for Mauer’s NEXT contract after this one.
The Twins are also no longer a small revenue team. Moving in to the new stadium and leaving behind the abismal lease they had at the Dome means the Twins are likely going to be seeing revenues exceeding $200 million beginning as early as next season.
Mauer’s contract this time around won’t come close to eating up the percentage of their total payroll that Helton’s has in Colorado. The Twins will be a $100+ million payroll team beginning at least by 2011. I’d expect Mauer to be seeng about $20 million of that. That leaves over $80 million for the rest of the team… in other words, even after paying Mauer, they’ll have more to spend on other players than their entire payroll has been in any season in their history.
I expect better out of Olney.
Let’s not forget the stats-padding new Yankee Stadium. Didn’t every Yankee have over 20 home runs this year?
Steve, one of the more amusing effects of the new launching pad in the Bronx is that even Damon had a big HR season… and as a result, the Yankees aren’t likely to be able to get him to sign on the cheap like they hoped. His inflated numbers make him look too good to make a case that he should take a pay cut! LOL
Look, Jeter is a great, great player. He has rings. That’s not the issue. The issue is: in 2009, who was the AL MVP? Since there are no criteria, it’s a difficult question to answer in some years. However, Mauer clearly had the superior statistical year. And don’t talk about “intangibles.” Jeter is clearly a winner and a leader. Still, in 2009, the Yankees without Jeter probably still win the AL East and certainly go deep into the playoffs. The Twins without Mauer, well, it ain’t pretty. The 2009 AL MVP should be Mauer. I’m not really sure why anyone would question that. I’m not saying that just because I’m a Twins fan, either. I feel the same way about Pujols over in the NL, and I could care less about the Cards.
“I’m sure Mauer will be his awesome humble self to be recognized as MVP, but I’m also sure he would trade that to win the World Series.”
Yeah, I am sure that Joe would rather be Francisco Cervelli, ring-wearing back-up catcher, than be Joe Mauer, MVP.
It’s PC to say you value the ring more than you value the love, respect and admiration of those that you love respect and admire.
But that is what you say, in order to retain the love, respect and admiration of those that you love respect and admire.
What you say you value, is not what you really value.
That goes for Joe Mauer and most members of the human race.
roland,
Thanks. I laughed all the way through that piece.
I appreciate it.
Take Jeter off the Yankees, they still win 95 ganes, and ARod is the shortstop.
Take Mauer off the Twins they are lucky to win 70.
St. Paul Joe is the linchpin of the Twins and the no doubt MVP
Sane, I was just gonna say something like that but you just said it much better.
I would rather be John Stockton being a stud for many years, hall of famer,etc, than John Salley, who was decent, but has 3 or 4 rings as a role player.
I think I would rather be Joe Mauer than Derek Jeter just because of the age thing but it’s gotta be great being either one of them. Being MVP of the league is pretty awesome as is starting shortstop on the world champs.
Plus, the chick. My God, think of the chicks.
Doug Mientkiewicz got a ring but he wanted that baseball even more, what a strange cat.
Criminilities,
Some one mentioned Joe and Serena hookin up. Serena Williams?
Boy, I’d sure like to rep their offspring.
Mientkiewicz got a WS ring but he wanted that baseball even more, what a wierdo.
BC,
$$$$
I gotta say, Howard, the article you spoke of did get torn apart: the day FJM took over Deadspin for the day, they had a field day with that article. I can’t find it right now, but I’d suggest looking it up if you have some spare time — hilarious!
Billy Heywood:
Jeter is the best hitter in his infield and the best hitter on his team.
He is also one of the best hitters the game has seen in recent memory and when he’s through, he’ll be considered one of the best hitters in baseball history.
sane says:
We’re not talking about Francisco Cervelli - we’re talking about Derek Jeter.
Hall-of-Famer Derek Jeter.
Criminilities: again, we’re not talking about a role player who is happy to be on the team. Derek Jeter is the heart and soul of the Yankees and he has been for 14 years! Homegrown Yankee talent - not purchased.
And for all of you bitter Twins fans, look to your own ownership for taking the money and lining their own pockets with it. The Twins ownership has the money to put a championship team on the field, but they refuse to do it.
And remember, when it comes down to it, Andy Pettite (homegrown) won Game 6. Mariano Rivera (homegrown) saved it. Jorge Posada (homegrown) caught it. And Derek Jeter (homegrown) was right there to soak it all in.
“We’re not talking about Francisco Cervelli - we’re talking about Derek Jeter.”
We were ACTUALLY talking about choosing a ring over an MVP award.
I wasn’t denigrating Jeter.
I was denigrating that @#$% cliche which says a ring is more desirable than the MVP Award.
That’s a load of sh*t, which everyone says, but no one should believe.
I am pretty sure Cervelli would rather be an MVP, but wouldn’t dare say it publicly.
Please recall that Jeter’s 5 World Series rings were purchased, not earned.
Champsagain,
I am not a Jeter hater. I pointed out that he was a lock for HOF 10 years ago. Heart and soul of the team yet for all their talent, even with Jeter they were sitting at .500 til Arod came back to the lineup. I would like to have Jeter on our team but if you gave me the choice of the Yankee roster right now, I would take ARod. Depends on how you rate hitting but I think he is the best hitter on that team.
I’m with Sane. I would rather have MVP trophy on my mantlepiece than a ring on my finger but they are both pretty friggin awesome and to have 5 rings is 5 times as awesome.
Twins still spend a far greater % of their revenue on players than the Yankees do. It is still just a bigger piece of a much smaller team. Yes, you have homegrown talent but being able to add the 3 BEST free agents on a team like you already had just seems to be overkill. I am bitter Nathan blew a 2 run lead, not that the Yankees won it all.
But you used Cervelli to make your point when we were comparing Jeter to Mauer.
I’d rather be Derek Jeter with 5 rings, a champion, a Hall-of-Famer than Joe Mauer, MVP.
Jeter is not A-Rod - that’s for sure. But even Yankee fans hate A-Rod. Jeter is to NY what Mauer is to Minnesota. They’re both great guys on and off the field. That is more valuable than homeruns and RBIs.
But what it comes down to is the following:
Joe Mauer is a great player.
Derek Jeter is a great player AND A CHAMPION.
ARod is also the best shortstop on that team, by the way.
Not to mention, the MVP is voted upon by writers. Rarely is an award given unanimously - leaving a debate as to whom deserves it.
Winning a World Series is not debateable - you win, you’re a Champion. No ifs, ands or buts.
As for the Yankees and all of their spending.
If the Twins coughed up some dough for Torii Hunter or Johan Santana to stick around, this would be a different conversation. Money does not buy rigs. The Twins played the Yankees tough - if they had Torii Hunter in center and Johan on the mound instead of Carlos Gomez and Carl Pavano, who knows what would have happened.
Blame the Twins ownership - not the Yankees.
Yes, yes… congratulations. Throw a quarter of a billion dollars of talent around Jeter and he finally gets another ring. Way to go.
Yawn.
Joe Mauer is a great player.
Derek Jeter is a great player AND A CHAMPION.
And Derek Jeter wouldn’t be a champion without the other 24 men around him.
Yeah I love the whole “money doesnt buy championships” BS coming from teams with $500 million in annual revenue. Now go order your cheap knockoff rings and pretend you’re part of the team.
Money does not buy rigs.
Given the atrocious umpiring this postseason, this typo coming from a Yankee troll is hilarious.
correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t the MVP go to the individual who made the biggest positive difference for their club? Would the Yankees have made the playoffs without Jeter? yes. Would they have won the AL Pennant? most likely. Would they have won the world series? good chance. now measure the Twins season without Mauer, compare the candidates and vote.
I love the bitter Twins fans Yankees/umpires conspiracy theories.
Were the rest of the Twins in on it? Because I was watching that game and saw Mauer on base with no one out even after that crappy call. He’s the MVP, but he was left stranded.
Again, with the buying of the rinGs - as I said, if Carl Pohlad took a few of the $25 million he received in luxury tax money and offered it to Torii Hunter a couple of years ago, I bet the Twins could have even won a playoff game this year.
Instead, he lets Torii go and Torii helps the Angles advance to the next round of the playoffs.
Stop crying poverty and start making smart baseball moves that IMPROVE your team. The pity party has been over for a while. “Small market” teams have proven they can win. And big market teams like the Yankees don’t win when their management makes bonehead decisions.
I love the bitter Twins fans Yankees/umpires conspiracy theories.
Gotta love the egotistical Yankee fans who assume that any disgust directed towards their ballclub is bred from some sort of inferiority complex and not simply from the complete and utter lack of class demostrated by their fans on an almost daily basis.
Criminilities said, “Twins still spend a far greater % of their revenue on players than the Yankees do.”
Incorrect. For the two years I could find data on the Yankees easily spent a higher %. In 2007 it was 58% to 48% and the CHAMPS 2009 payroll was 54% of 2008 revenue compared to the Twinsies 41%.
It’s great to have an owner that wants to win!
Just want to point out that I do consider my evaluation of the MVP candidates to be a minority view. Of course Joe was the best player at any position in the AL in 2009 and, lacking any other equivalent award, he is easily the MVP. My point is that when a team shows vast improvement from one year to the next, you’ve got to wonder why. That’s when you go to the stats and see what player “seems” to have been the catalyst for the team’s improvement. Sometimes it isn’t clear but sometimes you find that someone on that team has had a career year and you’ve got to at least acknowledge that this player is extremely valuable.
What if Mauer had hit .299 with around 75 – 80 RBI and 60 – 75 runs scored and the Twins still finished where they did? Still a very good year for someone who was out for a month but would we be talking about MVP?
Anyway, with all the controversy that goes along with these end of year awards every year, I thought I would include a minority report.
Finally, heetcpa, you’ve given me a great idea for a new product – Maple Juice. Pure genius!
T:
You’re obviously angry and I get it. It’s human nature to blame others instead of looking inward. It’s the Yankees and their fans’ faults that the Twins can’t win a playoff game.
Not sure what lack of class you’re talking about - New York fans are actually the class of professional sports. Read this and learn something before you make completely inaccurate statements.
http://theplaybyplay.com/2008/11/25/rooting-and-looting-when-sports-fans-attack-in-america/
Let’s recap.
Reasons why the Minnesota Twins can’t win a World Series.
1. Because the umpires and the Yankees are in cahoots.
2. Because Yankees fans don’t have any class.
3. Because the Yankees spend their money to improve their ballclub.
Makes complete sense.
27 out of 28 first place votes isn’t half bad!
The Twins were too cheap to pay up for Johan Santana so they traded him to the Mets.
The players they got back have done absolutely nothing to help the team (so much so that they just traded the prize of the trade).
Is that the Mets fault for paying up? Or is it the Twins fault for not scouting well?
I wonder who was foolish enough to give Cabrera a first place vote instead of Mauer? Even so, I’m happy to see that neither Jeter or Texeira got even one first place vote. Sweet!
“Jeter will get his: In Cooperstown five years after he retires.
“Or he can be immortalized earlier, if the Yankees choose to have him embalmed this off-season.”
If the Yankees choose to have him embalmed this off-season, he’d probably still finish in the top 3 for MVP the next two seasons.
And the Twins ticket revenue vs the Yankees ticket revenue isn’t the difference between small- and large-market; it’s the TV revenue and merchandising where the Yankees dwarf most everyone else in MLB.
Congrats Joe! Boo trolls!
His swing is peaceful
Flowing like an ice-hole keg
Mauer might beat beer
Kirby Puckett - 0 MVPs, 2 World Series rings
Zolio Veralles - 1 MVP, 0 World Series rings
The players they got back have done absolutely nothing to help the team (so much so that they just traded the prize of the trade).
Carlos Gomez contributed down the stretch in both 2008 and 2009. And he “became” J.J. Hardy, which fills a need in the Twins infield while dispensing of a surplus of OF talent (Span/Young/Cuddyer aren’t going anywhere)
Philip Humber (or was it Kevin Mulvey) became Jon Rauch, who was a very important contributor to the Twins bullpen after he arrived in the final months of 2009.
Delios Guerra if I’m not mistaken is now on the Twins 40-man. I know it’s tough for a Yankees fan to grasp the concept of a “farm system” these days, but to try and keep up.
2. Because Yankees fans don’t have any class.
The Twins struggles to continue past the first round and the overall lack of class demonstrated by Yankee fans (which you are doing nothing to help disprove) are mutually exclusive situations.
The Twins could win the World Series, and Yankee fans in would still be percieved as generally classless (and frequently baseball-stupid) individuals.
New York fans are actually the class of professional sports
You realize that one can be completely devoid of any sort of class without having to resort to rioting in the streets right?
The disgust for Yankee fans tends to come from the exact “holier than thou” attitude, combined with the immediate defense of “you’re just jealous” to anybody who questions their attitude.
You’ve demonstrated both with an expert precision, along with the third quality commonly leading to a general level of distaste aimed at Yankee fans.
And that’s how they all crawl out of the woodwork the moment the moment things start going well, and then immediately go back into their holes at the first sign of trouble (including everybody in the lineup except A-Rod hitting a homerun).
yes ‘champs’, because its quite fair to compare a team with 150 million revenue and a team with half a billion in revenue. in addition your main reason for winning this year was via spending an obscene amount of money on 3 guys in FA last year (otherwise your rotation sucked and your lineup wasnt as deadly).
Hahahaha. Jeter wasn’t even named MVP of his own team.
I wonder, will that mean that Yankee “fans” will now hate Texeira?
I’m sorry, but anyone that thinks Jeter is the best hitter on the Yankees has no credibility.
Champsagain,
I promise you that if the Twins had won the WS I would not be on any Yankees site baiting the Yankee fan. Define class however you want to but here you are gloating and mocking. Proof is in the pudding.
Congrats Joe.
Joe Mauer is a great player….AND AN MVP.
Derek Jeter is a great player AND A CHAMPION (Because his owners bought the championship)….AND NEVER AN MVP, because THAT has to be earned..and his owners can’t buy THAT for him, like they can buy teammates for him.
I promise you that if the Twins had won the WS I would not be on any Yankees site baiting the Yankee fan.
Meanwhile Yankee fans (such as Champs) would be making the tour to ensure that the winning teams fans remembered that the Yankees still had more.
PS: Full voting results here
WOW! Cuddyer got an 8th and a 10th place vote. Kubel got an 8th place vote too.
Nice to see some love for guys that stepped it up late in the season.
If I was out here screaming and hollaring that Derek Jeter deserved the MVP over Mauer, then you’d have a point.
But as a true baseball fan (who grew up when the Yankees drew less fans than the 2009 Twins), I’m far more qualified to discuss this topic than you can imagine. My level of fandom has nothing to do with the Yankees recent success.
Arguing that the players the Twins got back helped them down the stretch is like saying that Sarah Palin helped John McCain’s campaign. Sure, she got the Republicans all excited, but not excited enough to win!
What was the revenue of Tampa Bay last year?
How about the Florida Marlins in 2003?
What about the Tigers in 2006?
The Indians in 2007?
Why can all of these other teams with lower revenues than the Yankees make it to the World Series, but the Twins can’t?
My “holier than thou” pales in comparison to your pity party. I love baseball and I love the Twins (when they don’t play the Yankees of course), but I see how this team operates and it’s not about winning.
I’m hoping that it changes with the new stadium, so Twins fans can stop complaining. It really gets tiring to hear this argument all the time.
Write letters to Twins ownership or something - a much more constructive way to funnel your Yankee hatred.
Derek Jeter led the Yankees in runs scored, hits, stolen bases, batting average, and OBP.
That’s the best hitter on the team. No question about it.
Ahhh Yes! A great day to celebrate Mauer’s outstanding season all things Minnesota Twins!
Hence, I propose a one-day ban on use of the words “New” and “York”.
It’s like trying to enjoy a fine cigar while sitting in an outhouse: You just can’t!
If the Yankees winning the World Series is only due to the fact that they have the biggest payroll in the majors, then why don’t they win the World Series every single year?
If I was out here screaming and hollaring that Derek Jeter deserved the MVP over Mauer, then you’d have a point.
Actually my point (and the point of others) is that you’re on here doing nothing but propogating the increasinly accurate perception that Yankee fans are a bunch of egotistical douchebags.
Would you like to see supporting evidence to my thesis?
But as a true baseball fan
I’m far more qualified to discuss this topic than you can imagine
My “holier than thou” pales in comparison to your pity party.
That last one is especially amusing since you admit to your own ego issues while attempting to find a “pity party” when all I see are a bunch of Twins fans fed up with yet another a-hole of a Yankees fan coming out of the woodwork to brag about a championship as though nobody here was aware of it.
Obviously the Mauer/Jeter thing means something to you…as you have felt the need to waste an entire day derailing discussion of it on the board for another team’s fans.
So remind me again who’s the one that could better expend their energy elsewhere?
Hey Jim, I respectfully request a royalty agreement when the maple juice hits the market.
For the record, an MVP is not earned. It is voted upon by writers.
Joe Mauer earned a batting title. He won an MVP award. Big difference.
I have nothing bad to say about Jeter.
My entire argument is that an MVP Award is more prestigious and more coveted than a WS ring, regardless of what players say.
If Jeter believes differently, he is rationalizing the fact that he has won rings, but he has won no MVP’s and has little prospect of ever doing so.
However, his legacy will be fine without one.
“If the Yankees winning the World Series is only due to the fact that they have the biggest payroll in the majors, then why don’t they win the World Series every single year?”
“ONLY” is your word.
Payroll is a major factor, not the “only” factor.
High payroll usually leads to a high talent level, which usually leads to wins.
But not always, which explains the recent Yankee failures.
Joe Mauer earned a batting title. He won an MVP award. Big difference.
Jeter didn’t win a World Series ring…the Yankees won the World Series.
The ring is a certificate of his participation in that event. It is no more special or significant than the one that Ramiro Peña will be handed during next year’s ceremony.
T:
The whole purpose of my initial comment was in response to the Jeter bashing.
It was you who transferred the baseball talk to a personal attack.
Like I said I’m a baseball fan - and debating subjects like MVP or World Series ring is highly entertaining.
The pity party won’t die - read the comments on this chain. Every single reference to Derek Jeter and the Yankees has something to do with the Yankees spending more money than the Twins. No comments about baseball - about how the Twins blew several opportunities to score runs that would have changed the game. No comments about Joe Nathan blowing games that the Twins should have won.
That’s the pity party I’m talking about. I’m not attempting to find it. It’s right here in black and white.
Meanwhile, no one is responding to the baseball points I bring up - except the reply about the Santana trade. No one can tell me why all of these other teams with lower payrolls end up in the World Series. No one can tell me why Pohlad pocketed the $25 million instead of giving some to Torii Hunter.
No one responded to the point that Kirby Puckett is to the Twins what Derek Jeter has been to the Yankees - two hall-of-famers who won the World Series, but did not win an MVP. You won’t find any legitimate Yankees fans degrading Kirby’s accomplishments at all.
“You won’t find any legitimate Yankees fans”
Are we speaking about their births?
Wow, Miguel Cabrera got a 1st place vote.
“If the Yankees winning the World Series is only due to the fact that they have the biggest payroll in the majors, then why don’t they win the World Series every single year?”
Because they generally have morons owning and running their team. This year’s championship falls in to that old “blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut” thing. Every year George and his mutant offspring spend hundreds of millions of dollars on new players. This year, they finally spent it on a couple of good ones. Congrats again.
champs
how about the fact that our team nearly beat you with the pitcher you guys paid 40 mill to pitch only 140 innings over 4 years? how about the fact that your team forced them to play the day after game 163 and us having to use a rookie pitcher? how about the fact that your entire offseason rotation were guys you signed in FA (Sabbathia, Burnett, Petitte)? you fail to mention little facts like that don’t you?
Sane:
Point being that the individuals who make up the team count for something more than just dollars and sense. Take last year vs. this year. Almost the same payroll - different result.
Often times, the makeup of the team is just as important as the talent level.
The 2008 Yankees had plenty of talent, but they also didn’t gel together.
The arguments on this chain are not giving any credit to the fact that the 2009 Yankees were a better team than the 2008 version.
For example, Bobby Abreu has been a great player for a long time. He left the Phillies and the Phillies won. He joined the Yankees and the Yankees missed the playoffs for the first time in a long time.
He didn’t gel with the team - he’s a not a team player. Money has nothing to do with it.
There are at least 25 rings handed out every year, but only 2 MVP awards. As a fan I would much rather have the WS trophy. If I were a player I would say that I would rather have the WS but like Sane says, that would be PC posturing. When you retire would you rather have your team be on the long list of World Series winners or would you rather have your name on the long list of MVP winners? Not an obvious call but my honest answer would be MVP.
“how about the fact that our team nearly beat you with the pitcher you guys paid 40 mill to pitch only 140 innings over 4 years? how about the fact that your team forced them to play the day after game 163 and us having to use a rookie pitcher? how about the fact that your entire offseason rotation were guys you signed in FA (Sabbathia, Burnett, Petitte)? you fail to mention little facts like that don’t you?”
Yes, yes and yes!
Finally some baseball talk.
1. you prove the point that it’s not all about money. Carl Pavano - savior to the Twins. Leech to the Yankees.
2. That’s a baseball decision that any team would have made. If it was reversed, do you really think the Twins would have said, “no, it’s ok, you need a rest, let’s play the day after.”?
3. CC, AJ - free agents. Well, that’s true - but what about the homegrown bullpen of Hughes, Chamberlain, and Rivera?
Every single reference to Derek Jeter and the Yankees has something to do with the Yankees spending more money than the Twins.
Because you came in comparring a World Series ring (which is an indication of a group accomplishment) to an MVP award (which is an individual accomplishment).
So, yes, one of the major contributing factors to Jeter’s WS ring is that it comes from working with 24 other people to put together a successful playoff run.
So if the Yankees spend the money to find 24 better players to surround Jeter, then his likelihood of winning said ring is far more likely than Mauer’s given the 24 men he worked with.
So yes, the payroll comparisons are completely valid when comparring the merits of the two awards.
Meanwhile, no one is responding to the baseball points I bring up - except the reply about the Santana trade.
Which you quickly dismissed due to your self-evaluated superior baseball intellect. Hence why nobody is bothering to counter any of your other troll attempts.
Seriously, can we get this guy banned? I’m sure it’s gotta be embarassing for those Twins fans living in New York to have this guy acting like some kind of spokesman for NY baseball fans.
Wow, sounds like you blame Abreau for not making the playoffs last year. Where was the leadership of Jeter?
Twins do have 2 WS championships by the way. Kind of misleading to name a bunch of other teams wins and say the Twins haven’t done it when they have done it twice.
I did mention Nathan’s blown save. I really don’t care that much about the Yankees except I really don’t think any stacked team should be able to add the top 3 free agents in any given year. Not sour grapes but a suggestion that maybe there should be a limit. As long as we make the playoffs every year I am fine with our chances. If we make the playoffs 40 more times in my life I would expect to get past the 1st round about 15 times and get to the WS about 6 times and win it twice. We are due to win soon. That is all.
“There are at least 25 rings handed out every year, but only 2 MVP awards. As a fan I would much rather have the WS trophy. If I were a player I would say that I would rather have the WS but like Sane says, that would be PC posturing. When you retire would you rather have your team be on the long list of World Series winners or would you rather have your name on the long list of MVP winners? Not an obvious call but my honest answer would be MVP.”
I would agree with you except I don’t think Ernie Banks is faking the fact that he would take a World Series ring over his MVPs. If everything I’ve read about him is true, he is one of the most genuine people to ever play the game.
He didn’t gel with the team - he’s a not a team player.
You’re right. He’s not a true Yankee like Jeter is.
Just like that loser A-Rod, who gets more heat from the Yankee fans then any player of his calibur deserves.
Wow, sounds like you blame Abreau for not making the playoffs last year. Where was the leadership of Jeter?
A better example of Jeter’s “leadership” was when he totally distanced himself from A-Rod when he first arrived.
saam says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Wow, Miguel Cabrera got a 1st place vote.
I know that has to be a joke right?
“Wow, sounds like you blame Abreau for not making the playoffs last year. ”
-no, just using him an example that sometimes character, LESS talent and LESS money (i.e. Nick Swisher) are more important that stats and cash (Abreu).
“Where was the leadership of Jeter?”
-probably in the same place as Joe Mauer this year.
“Twins do have 2 WS championships by the way. Kind of misleading to name a bunch of other teams wins and say the Twins haven’t done it when they have done it twice.”
-the financial landscape of MLB has changed dramatically since 1991. The Pirates made the playoffs - they haven’t had a winning season since. In 1991, the payrolls of the Twins and the Yankees were a lot closer than they are today.
“No one can tell me why Pohlad pocketed the $25 million instead of giving some to Torii Hunter.”
~ The Twins offered Hunter a fair contract in the “real” baseball world. The Angels offered him an over-inflated bidding war contract of $90M over 5 years.
You see here lies the difference: The Yankees view each and every player transaction in a vaccuum. The terms for that deal for that player have no bearing on the terms for any other deal for any other player. They all stand fiscally alone.
The Twins business model, as most other MLB teams, cannot operate and survive that way. The Twins MUST view EVERY deal in light of every other deal currently on the roster, and potential roster ramifications many years in the future.
Most if not all Twins fans were sorry to see Hunter play elsewhere, but most Twins fans did NOT want the Twins to overpay at $90M and five years - believing that Hunter was in the decline of his carreer and would not be worthy of that kind of money in the latter years of that contract.
This is an operating environment completely foreign to Yankee fans, so don’t come on this site and pertend to know or care about making “macro” baseball decisions.
And finally, the Twins organization signed a record number of draft pick for a record number of dollars, as well a several record international signings this past season, so don’t randomly spew garbage about pocketing $ when you have no idea in reality.
“-no, just using him an example that sometimes character, LESS talent and LESS money (i.e. Nick Swisher) are more important that stats and cash (Abreu).”
There is no way that is true.
First off, Nick Swisher is probably a better baseball player at this point than Bobby Abreu is. However, that’s not the real argument.
The real argument is if a lesser player makes your team better. And there is no way that is true.
The reason the Yankees won the World Series this year after not making the playoffs last year isn’t because Bobby Abreu left. It’s because CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett, and Andy Pettitte were brought in to solidify the rotation, and the worst offensive regular for your squad had an OPS+ of 99, with every other regular between 126 and 149.
The Yankees amassed the most talented roster in the majors. They paid for it, and it did what it was supposed to do - win. They avoided any upsets in the playoffs, and won the championship. Which is what the team with the best players should do.
I couldn’t agree more with Howard on the debunking of the “lifetime achievement award”.That is nothing but hogwash.
Derek Jeter is a great player.But the environment in which he plays is also a big factor in his greatness.He is and has been throughout his career,surrounded by great teammates.Jeter can look with pride to his five WS rings but he was just one of 25 players on each of those star studded teams.Put him on the Twins roster during his career and tell me how many WS rings he has.
His statistical greatness could also be agrued as a product of his environment.He has hit at the top of great lineups through out his career and has never been the true focal point of any of those lineups IMO.During his prime he wasn’t even always the best shortstop in the A.L.,let alone the best player in the league.
The MVP IMO is about a player who if you take him out of his teams lineup,the team is significantly worse.By that definition Mauer is the clear choice.The voters not only got it right with Mauer,they got it right when they saw that Jeter wasn’t even the Most Valuable Yankee.
Geez, this is tiring. I certainly agree that payroll isn’t everything but then you say if the Twins payroll was higher (paying 150 mil for Santana and 85 mil for Hunter) they would have a better chance.
What I really don’t like is the hindsight cherrypicking.
You talk about the great leadership of Jeter and discount the purchases of 3 top free agents in rating the success of the Yankees and then say how important it is to spend a lot of money wisely. Talk out of both ends much?
heetcpa your 2:17 post was spot on.
“The Twins offered Hunter a fair contract in the “real” baseball world.”
-actually, I remember Hunter being a little insulted at the offer. I don’t think the Twins were even close.
They might have learned their lesson - and hopefully they don’t screw up with Mauer.
As for the record spending the Twins have done - the luxury tax has been around since 1997. The Twins have PROFITED from it ever since. Go look it up.
The garbage is actually you forgetting that the Yankees had $95 million come OFF of their payroll in 2009 - allowing them to sign their expensive free agents.
More garbage to add to your garbage collection is that the Yankees did NOT send the Twins some middling prospects for Johan Santana because his required bloated contract and the aforementioned $95 million would have broken the bank.
So preach all you want about how you understand the dollars and sense in baseball - but at least have all the facts in place.
Everyone knew that for a couple of years, Hunter would play well enough with the Angels to make the Twins miss having him. But we’ll see how years 4 and 5 look when they come around. In the end, he was insulted by the Twins 3 year offer. In truth, he was just pissed off because they offer wasn’t high enough to get other teams bidding more.
It’s only because the Twins let Hunter and Santana go that they’ve been able to keep and give healthy extensions to Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, Cuddyer, Baker and Nathan. The only people who don’t understand that are people who simply can’t or won’t get their minds around the concept of not spending more money than you take in.
I was sorry to see Santana go. I was ready to see Hunter go. But regardless, the fact is that since that year, the Twins have not been forced by financial constraints to allow any player to leave that they really wanted to keep.
I know it’s something a lot of fans don’t like to hear, but the “promise” made when the ballpark was approved wasn’t that the Twins would then start spending money like idiots (read: Yankees) on FAs… it was that having the additional revenue would allow them to retain the best of the talent that they developed in their own system, rather than having to let them walk away as FAs. It’s not a popular truth, but the fact is that they have kept their end of that deal so far.
I agree heetcpa laid it down very well.
Pete D.
you can’t seriously tell me that statistics-wise Swisher is better than Abreu.
Intangibles and character traits aside - strictly based on the numbers, Abreu is a borderline hall-of-fame player.
The Pro From Dover:
So Derek Jeter is great because he played on great teams. The assumption based on that argument is that if Jeter played on the Twins, he wouldn’t be considered as great as he is with the Yankees.
So if Joe Mauer ditches the Twins and signs with the Yankees, his greatness will be diluted?
mlb.com will have joe’s news conf. at 3:00.
Criminilities:
I’m not ignoring the fact that the Yankees signed expensive free agents. I’m just adding that there is more involved than dollars and cents.
Take for example some of the $95 million that came off the Yankees payroll.
The Yankees paid Jason Giambi over $23 million in 2008. Mark Teixera is getting about $20 million this year.
Mike Mussina won 20 games in 2008.
AJ Burnett won 13 in 2009.
It’s not just about the money. There is baseball to be played.
I keep telling myself “dont feed the trolls… dont feed the trolls… dont feed the trolls…”
Yet I cant help myself again.
If Jeter played for the Twins, the national media would only know him as “that guy in Minnesota who gets on base a lot that the Twins finally moved over to 3B when it became clear he couldn’t play SS any more.”
“I don’t think Ernie Banks is faking the fact that he would take a World Series ring over his MVPs.”
Why would anyone (Ernie Banks included) PUBLICLY say that an individual achievement was more important than helping his team win?
To SAY that is verboten.
However, while bit players on championship teams are usually forgotten, MVP’s are on a exclusive (2 per year) list which is never forgotten.
“you can’t seriously tell me that statistics-wise Swisher is better than Abreu.”
Abreu - .293/.390/.435
Swisher - .249/.371/.498
Abreu has the higher average, Swisher hits for more power. Abreu has more stolen bases, Swisher is a much better defensive player.
Swisher has a higher OPS and is a better fielder than Abreu. He’s 6 years younger, and, by most accounts, was the better baseball player this year.
Abreu may be borderline Hall of Famer - but his better years are behind him. From this past year and beyond, I’d rather have Swisher.
They gave A-Rod 250 million based on his MVP awards not the number of rings he had.
I love the troll moniker. Thank you.
That guy who can’t play SS anymore just won another gold glove award. Let me know when JJ Hardy wins one.
If the national media ignores every other team but the Yankees, how come 2 out of the last 4 MVPs were from the Twins? How come this year’s Cy Young was from the Royals? The previous 2 were from the Indians. How come they just don’t give it to Jeter and Rivera every year?
When I was growing up in NYC before I had cable, I heard all about the greatness of Kirby Puckett, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
sy:
Not to beat poor Zolio around, but no one outside of Minnesota and the biggest of baseball trivia gurus can tell you who won the AL MVP in 1965. Many more people know who won the World Series that year.
Bit players - you’re 100% correct.
Hall-of-Famers - you’re 100% incorrect.
Oh and before we just let this “Jeter and his intangible leadership” thing pass as gospel, let’s all keep in mind one thing.
When the Yankees added the best hitter in baseball, who also happened to be the best SS in baseball, did Mr Leadership say, “Wow, that’s terrific! I’ll be happy to change positions to make the team better!”? No. His attitude was basically “screw ARod and screw what’s best for the success of the team. I’m the SS, make him change positions.”
Yeah. That’s what I call intangible leadership.
Oh please. ANY credibility you MIGHT have had just went out the door when you start trotting Gold Glove Awards out there as evidence of defensive ability.
FSN is covering the press confrence
“If the national media ignores every other team but the Yankees, how come 2 out of the last 4 MVPs were from the Twins? How come this year’s Cy Young was from the Royals? The previous 2 were from the Indians. How come they just don’t give it to Jeter and Rivera every year?”
How many of the games ESPN and FOX televise during the season are the Yankees and/or Red Sox?
Pete d:
Swisher and Abreu are both horrible outfielders - Swisher was only in there late in games because the Yanks didn’t have better options on the bench. Abreu is afraid of the wall - not a good thing when you play the outfield.
Abreu’s 162 game average:
105 runs
175 hits
40 doubles
21 home runs
99 rbis
29 steals
.299 BA
.404 OBP
.493 slugging
Swisher:
93 runs
136 hits
32 doubles
28 home runs
86 rbis
1 sb
.245 BA
.357 OBP
.460 slugging
“It’s not just about the money. There is baseball to be played.”
And when you can afford the best baseball players, you win more often than not.
You might have a point if the Yankees were anywhere near the rest of the league in payroll. You could point at the Cubs and Mets and Orioles, and show how your team wins because they know how to evaluate talent or something like that.
But the Yankees were $52 MILLION clear of the second highest paid roster. That’s more than the entire rosters of the Pirates, Padres, and Marlins.
The Yankees were $80 MILLION clear of the Red Sox. That’s more than the entire roster of 13 MLB clubs.
When you can spend as much money as the Yankees can, it really is all about the money.
Yes… “troll”… as in a person who, having nothing in common with or relationship to a community, attempts to disrupt a community or garner reactions, attention and controversy.
For example, idiot Yankee fans who most likely having been banished out of any and all respectable Yankee blogging communities who decide to share their lack of intelligence with communities of other teams, purely to generate reactions.
I am not saying Ernie Banks was not sincere, but I would place more credence to his comment if he had both a ring and an MVP. Then he could tell you what he values more.
It’s like me saying I would rather have married Jane Seymour. I think that would have been nice but haven’t been married to her so I don’t really know.
Champs again -
Why are you using career numbers for Swisher and Abreu? I am not making a cliam that Nick Swisher has had a better career than Bobby Abreu.
I can take it to an extreme - who had a better year last year, Babe Ruth or Nick Swisher? Which would you rather have on your team for next season? Ruth has the much better career numbers, so you want to go with his corpse, right?
Bobby Abreu was a great player. Now he’s a good player. Nick Swisher was better this past season, and will probably be better next season. Abreu will probably have better career numbers when all is said and done. But that doesn’t affect who is better at this moment in time.
ES16:
You’re right. Yankees and Red Sox games get more ratings, so they’re on TV more often.
In 1987 when I only had broadcast TV, I only got to see Kirby Puckett play against the Yankees, in the All-Star game, and in the playoffs. But I read about him in magazines and I saw him on This Week in Baseball. I had his baseball cards. I knew he was a great player even though I rarely saw him play.
In today’s world, this theory that “Derek Jeter gets more attention because he plays in NY” is completely insane.
Between cable TV, the internet, and mobile devices, you can watch any game at any times - anywhere in the world.
Criminilities:
Hate to ever use him as an example, but Mr. Rodriguez has 3 MVPs and he said this World Series victory trumped all of them.
JimCrikket:
I’m already in your community. Watch your back - I might drag you down with me to the trenches of trolldom.
Seriously though - you should vent your anger elsewhere - maybe therapy?
I just like a good baseball debate. I won’t resort to name calling - even though us Yankee fans are apparently the worst human beings on Earth.
Pete D:
Maybe you were looking at the wrong numbers initially, because I just looked for the 3rd time and Abreu had a far better season in 2009 (FYI: the 162 game average is a better statistical comparitive tool than career numbers).
Abreu batted .293 with 15 homers and 103 rbis. He had 30 steals. He scored 96 runs. His OBP was .390.
Overall, Swisher was not in the same ballpark.
The Gold Gloves is the defensive standard - I didn’t make it up.
When Joe Mauer asks the Twins for $200 million, his agent is going to mention that besides being a batting champion, he also is a Gold Glove winner.
The consensus around major league baseball is that Gerald Laird should have won the GG this year. But guess what, he didn’t. Mauer did.
“I won’t resort to name calling - even though us Yankee fans are apparently the worst human beings on Earth.”
That statement makes my name calling redundant….although I would NEVER have said “apparently”.
There’s a reason you hate to use ARod as an example. Again, no one in their right mind is going to publicly say they value their personal awards over their team awards. PR nightmare if they ever did. Its really apples and oranges though. There is nothing like winning a championship and there is nothing like being an MVP but there are a lot fewer MVP’s walking around than there are people that were part of a championship.
Given the choice between being the kind of player that is capable of winning MVP’s and simply being a player on a WS championship team I am sure ARod would choose the former.
The consensus around major league baseball is that Gerald Laird should have won the GG this year.
Funny that you would say that, since the Gold Glove is handed out based on a consensus of major league managers and coaches.
Hate to ever use him as an example, but Mr. Rodriguez has 3 MVPs and he said this World Series victory trumped all of them.
I wonder if Mr. Rodriquez said that because now that he had the World Series trophy the relentless New York media (and fans such as yourself) would finally leave him the hell alone and finally look at the numbers he’s been churning out since coming to New York.
Not to mention that the relentless New York media (and fans such as yourself) would have ever forgiven him had he dared to say his MVP’s top the WS trophy.
So if Joe Mauer ditches the Twins and signs with the Yankees, his greatness will be diluted?
Nope, his greatness will likely be magnified to the point of absurdity much like Jeter’s has.
A good player on a great team will have a much easier time getting attention because the media is already paying attention to his team.
A good player on an average team will have a much harder time getting attention because he will have to draw attention to himself based solely on his own successes.
Champs, champs, champs….sigh
Did it ever occur to you that it is irresponsible to the rest of baseball to give these obscene contracts out?
The Twins, like many organizations, operates with some sense of responsibility. The Yankkes do not, and the $25M in luxury tax is not acting as a deterrent to this irresponsible behavior.
Yes, I know. You have a candle-lit shrine to Bernie Madoff on your mantlepiece. Hey, if the end result is a WS championship, the means are justified. Right, “Champ”?
For most of us in Twins Territory, we just would’nt be able to muster up the obvious pride you feel if Pohlad was stupid enough to sign the likes of Hunter or Santana to those contracts in exchange for an occasional WS ring. So, congratulations to you and your Yankees. Knock yourself out prancing around your apartment like a proud little pony.
“I won’t resort to name calling - even though us Yankee fans are apparently the worst human beings on Earth.”
Not all Yankee fans, just those that behave as you have thus far you cursed troll.
“Overall, Swisher was not in the same ballpark.”
RBI and runs scored are a terrible way to determine who the better hitter is. They are very much a team dependent statistic, and as such, don’t tell much about individual performance.
For example, Tony Batista had 110 RBI in a year where he had an OPS+ of 80. He wasn’t a good hitter - he just came up to bat with a lot of runners on.
Abreu had 332 plate appearnaces this year with men on base. Swisher had 269. Abreu had 201 PA with runners in scoring position. Swisher 160. More opportunities means more RBI.
Swisher had a higher OPS, even when adjusted for park. He played better outfield defense than Abreu. He was better at the plate and in the field. The only thing Abreu has going for him is the steals.
“The Gold Gloves is the defensive standard”
Again… this totally destroys what little credibility you might otherwise have.
Use ANY legitimate defensive metric to back up your claim. But GG?
In fact, for the first time in years, Jeter actually DID have an above average defensive season, based on a number of accepted metrics. You could have come up with at least ONE. But when you use the same criteria that managed to net Raphael Palmeiro an award for 1B GG in a season where he barely played the position, you simply can’t be taken seriously.
The GG is the absolute most meaningless award in baseball… and yes, Laird had a better defensive season than Mauer did and if any voter actually paid attention, Laird would have won the GG this year.
Jeter winning the award year after year simply demonstrates how meaningless the award is rather than what a slick defender Jeter is. Seriously… he’s not. He had a great season offensively and his best season defensively in probably a decade. But he is far from an elite defensive SS.
Criminilities:
I hate using A-Rod as an example because I think he’s a horrible human being. It has nothing to do with his baseball abilities.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Call me an idealist, but in a team sport such as baseball, I always feel that winning as a team is the whole point of it all.
Why would Brett Favre continue to play - is he going after more MVPs? or do you think he wants to win another Super Bowl?
Amen.
Almost everyone got what they wanted out this. Twins fans & front office got a Mauer MVP & the illusion the Twins are World Series contenders, Mauer gets to add another piece to his possible Hall Fame resume and Jeter, he gets another World Championship to talk about with his model girlfriend on the beach!
Congrats to Joe!
Here’s hoping the next individual award the Twins get after next season is Bill Smith for Executive of the Year!
T:
Joe Mauer is not lacking for attention. If you leave the confines of the Twin Cities, it’s pretty clear that everyone know who he is and what he is doing.
As I said earlier, a true baseball fan can appreciate that no matter what team he/she roots for.
Which is why the continued degradation of Derek Jeter’s career is the most absurd thing on this chain.
I love the troll moniker. Thank you.
Trolls typically do relish the troll title. That’s why they’re trolls. If they weren’t trolling intentionally, they wouldn’t be trolls.
They’d just be morons.
birdofprey:
The Yankees didn’t invent the rules - they are just playing by them.
If the Twins were ever able to get their own network going, they would be in the same boat.
The Twins are operating with some sense of responsibility? Are you serious? That’s why they can’t get past the 1st round of the playoffs?
Laughable.
Joe Mauer is not lacking for attention. If you leave the confines of the Twin Cities, it’s pretty clear that everyone know who he is and what he is doing.
And all it took to finally get the spotlight was having an MVP calibur season.
Like I said, good players on great teams have an easier time getting noticed because a great team remains in the spotlight regardless of any single preformance.
A prime example would be Josh Hamilton circa 2008. The guy was a media darling for the first half of the season, but once the Rangers fell out of contention he fell out off the radar big time.
I’m sure it’s also a coincidence that Jeter’s best defensive season in a long time came during the first season in recent memory where the Yankees had a 1B willing and capable of bending over enough to get his glove dirty.
“Jeter winning the award year after year simply demonstrates how meaningless the award is rather than what a slick defender Jeter is. Seriously… he’s not.”
This is so true. I think Jeter is the only SS in the majors who won’t dive for a ball.
JimCrikket
When they start listing defensive metrics on Hall-of-Fame plaques, let me know.
Major League managers and coaches vote for the Gold Glove - they see the players day in and day out.
To me, their opinions matter more than a bunch of numbers.
Which is why the continued degradation of Derek Jeter’s career is the most absurd thing on this chain.
So let me get this straight…
1) You came on here to debate the validity of a MVP title vs. a WS ring.
2) When you began to look like a moron making that argument, you tried to turn this into a Mauer vs. Jeter argument.
3) Now that it’s a Mauer vs. Jeter argument, you view any arguments against Jeter as “degradation”?
I’m starting to see where JC is coming from on this one. You are truly just a moron who got booted from the real Yankees discussions and needed to try and boost your ego by trolling some Twins fans.
Even if Mauer didn’t win today, baseball fans know who he is.
I play fantasy baseball with people from all over the country - coming off of a relatively serious injury, Mauer was still the 3rd catcher picked in the draft.
Everyone knows who Joe Mauer is. Jeter doesn’t get picked ahead of Hanley Ramirez simply because he’s on the Yankees.
Even if Mauer didn’t win today, baseball fans know who he is.
Again, thanks to three years of unprecedented numbers from a catcher.
ES16:
You’re right - Jeter won’t dive or get dirty or even get his face all bloody in a crucial game. He sucks.
“If the Twins were ever able to get their own network going, they would be in the same boat.”
Perhaps the dumbest comment yet.
Yes… and all it would take would be for about 6 million more people to move in to the Twin Cities market.
I love when Yankee fans act like their revenue advantage is something they and the Yankees have “earned”. It’s the biggest media market in the friggin world! The success of the Yankees is testiment to the fact that even morons can succeed every few years with that advantage.
When MLB adopts a similar revenue distribution system to the NFL, you’ll see which organizations truly know how to build and maintain their competitiveness. But don’t hold your breath, because Bud and his buddies know that the networks want the Yankees in the playoffs (and preferably the WS) every year and if they ever did anything to make the hapless twits who run that team compete on a level playing field with every one else, they’d become the NY Jets of MLB.
The GG glove voting is the prime reason why, even with the problems associated with current All Star voting by fans, you can’t just turn it over to the managers and coaches. They don’t bother actually looking at evidence.
T:
And everyone knows who Derek Jeter is because he’s a Hall-of-Fame shortstop with a handful of Word Series rings.
If you’re complaining about the lack of revenue that the pity me Twins have compared to the evil empire Yankees - then look no further than the YES Network.
That’s the source of the revenue. The Twins tried to get their own network going and they failed.
I’m not saying the Twins network would generate as much, but they certainly would have enough beyond the $25 in free luxury tax money to go out and re-sign Matt Tolbert to a long term deal.
That comment just demonstrates you have no more knowledge of the media business than you do of baseball.
Let me wrap this up - you guys have been a blast today.
According to the Crikket, the Gold Glove is irrelevant because the voting doesn’t use metrics (and because Derek Jeter has won 4 of them).
According to everyone else, the World Series is irrelevant (when the Yankees win it) because the Yankees bought it on eBay. When the Marlins win it, it’s something completely different, but since it doesn’t prove your point, we won’t discuss it.
Derek Jeter is only a Hall-of-Famer because he’s on the Yankees. Otherwise, he’s just an average middle infielder who doesn’t play hard.
Joe Mauer is the greatest thing to ever happen to mankind since the invention of toilet paper.
Year in and year out the fans of the Twins are completely happy fighting it out in the weakest division in baseball without any real hope to win a World Series.
The NFL revenue system will make up for Carlos Gomez overunning the bag and getting tagged out in a crucial playoff game.
The umpires are in cahoots with the Yankees - which explains why they get all of the calls.
What have I left out?
Oh wait, I left out that I’m a troll and a moron.
And I don’t know anything about baseball.
“According to the Crikket, the Gold Glove is irrelevant because the voting doesn’t use metrics (and because Derek Jeter has won 4 of them).”
Actually, the Gold Glove is irrelevant because Rafael Palmiero won one in a year that he played 28 games at 1st base.
Don’t confuse the troll, Pete.
You have left out your side.
Payroll is irrelevant. It is baseball and the team that makes good decisions is the one that wins. However, the Twins don’t win because they don’t spend enough on payroll.
Jeter is the heart and soul of the Yankees when they win but when they do not make the playoffs it is someone else’s fault.
You think the Twins get as much media attention as the Yankees.
Gold Gloves are very meaningfull even though we have seen Tori Hunter win them without even playing enough to qualify in batting races.
Jeter was the MVP even though it was nearly unanimous that Mauer was.
You know… I expected Jeter and Tex to get a vote or two perhaps. They had great seasons and they are, after all, Yankees.
But I’m still trying to figure out Cabrera’s 1st place vote.
This is the guy who goes on a bender with WSox players during a critical late-season series in Chicago when his team was feeling the Twins’ breathe down their necks. I could argue he was a major contributore to the Tigers LOSING the division.
But he’s the guy, rather than Jeter or Tex who gets a 1st place vote for “MVP”?
Oh yeah, forgot a couple.
Derek Jeter is the greatest thing to ever happen to mankind since the invention of toilet paper.
Yankees won because of good baseball decisions not because they blow by the salary cap as evidenced by very smarly signing CC, Burnett, and Texeira. Twins could have had these guys but must not have thought they were very good because they didn’t pay a quarter of a billion dollars to get them.
4:28 post pretty much summed it up!!
Have a great night guys. You’re all very entertaining.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/08/19/jeter/index.html
heetcpa - you’re on - the usual 3%?
JC - interesting point about Hunter and others that the Twins didn’t sign. Hunter was way overpaid by the Angels and he’s already showing signs of slipping (although that could be due to any number of factors - I’m not saying it’s his age, at least not yet). In Santana’s case, I don’t think he would have signed anyway and he really wanted to be paid as the best lefthander in MLB, something the Twins couldn’t afford to do even if they did open the Pohlad vault. Those two are history anyway and when their skills diminish, you’ll be hearing Angel and Mets fans complaining that they’re still on the payroll. If the Twins had signed them for the same amount of money that their new teams did, we’d be the ones complaining in a couple of years and then there really wouldn’t be anything left to sign the likes of Mauer and Morneau.
MAN MUSCLES! I was incredibly excited to see Mauer get the vote, and by a land-slide no less. However, it makes me sad that my reaction to reading about his achievement was one of relief. I wish I would’ve felt more like it was a no-brainer to the rest of the sports media world, but Jeter received every other possible award and that made me nervous for the MVP annoucement. Glad to see he finished third, since Tex is a hell of a player, and extra happy to see that Mauer is getting the attention his near-flawless play deserves. Now it’s time to get this contract business sorted out!
Wow. The troll foudn the one play where Jeter got laid out, and even then it’s the one where Jeter caught the bell well within fair territory and then went ahead and kept running for some reason.
T - yes couldn’t say it better; its not his fault he has no breaks! in addition, you see how he totally shuns the fans who only care about if he’s ok? he doesnt’ even acknowledge anyone as he’s being helped up and out of the stands.
“The players they got back have done absolutely nothing to help the team (so much so that they just traded the prize of the trade).”
I think just about everybody with some sort of knowledge found Guerra to be the prize of the trade… although it remains to be seen if he pans out. Also, we now have Jon Rauch and J.J. Hardy thanks to that trade. I’d say it worked out okay.
[…] Mauer’s MVP chances, click here, or to see La Velle and I break it down on video, click here. Howard Sinker weighs in today, noting that the MVP is not a lifetime achievement […]
