Penn’s agent explains
Posted on May 18th, 2009 – 5:27 PMBy Jerry Zgoda
Just got Tom Penn’s agent, Warren LeGarie, on the phone and here’s the essence of what he said:
He said the Wolves did offer the job and he said negotiations were progressing until the Trail Blazers made what he called a “full-court press” last night in an attempt to keep Penn, hired in 2007, in Portland with a promotion that will include a new title and a new, enhanced contract.
Asked if Glen Taylor’s wanting to keep Kevin McHale as coach was a determining factor, he said, “That was not an issue that had come up. It was never pushed down Tom’s throat. We had not gotten to that part in our discussions yet. We thought we were progressing but there were some issues going back and forth.”
He said the decision inevitably was an emotional one for his client.
“Honestly, Tom decided his heart still was in Portland,” LeGarie said. “It was a comfort factor more than anything. Portland was his comfort zone.Tom has developed a unique relationship in Portland and it kept tugging at his heart strings. Ultimately, that resonated with him. They have a good team there that he helped create and they have some unfinished business there.”
Asked if he has any other clients now for the Wolves’ job, LeGarie, who specializes in coaches and front-office personnel representation, he said, “I always have clients. Whether they’re (the Timberwolves) are interested, I’m still waiting to hear back from them.”
158 Responses to "Penn’s agent explains"
PR Spin that doesn’t really tell us anything……My guess is the agent is not going to disclose any sticking points…..
Of course not. What did you expect? Those guys never say what really happened because they have other clients and he’s probably going to have deal with the Wolves again, perhaps soon. Tell em what guy in sports who tells the truth? I know, I know: BILL SIMMONS! But even that would change in a hurry if he became an NBA GM.
So Jerry, who does this put on top of the current list now? Is Kahn the guy again?
I wish I could afford a PR job like that. My business would be making 8 digits a year not counting the decimal point.
You are going to get two kinds of people… one that wants promotion, or another that wants money… when it comes to dealing against Paul Allen… you can’t compete for cash, and with Taylor’s apparent stipulations on Hoiberg, the coaching, and what ever else seems to stink to these candidates… Penn got a fat paycheck, and he didn’t have to stick his neck out on the chopping block… best of both worlds for him.
At this point I wonder if anyone with any brains still would even interview for this position? It seems almost cursed, and with the secrecy of it… it only seems to create more anger in the fan base.
It is definitely time to call up Bill Simmons now.
I think it’s fair to say the only person that really knows whos on “top of the current list now” FOR SURE is Mr. Taylor himself…and that will continue to be the case until a hire is made
Expression–
The agent stated that the issue of McHale didn’t even come up, so how can you argue “Taylor’s apparent stipulations on Hoiberg, the coaching”…that argument is 100% media speculation
I’m not sure even he knows, UofM Student
UofM student
I think you give Taylor too much credit. The only thing he seems to be on top when it comes to the wolves… is a commode.
Here’s one little tidbit on the current state of things: With McHale, Hoiberg, Stack, etc., all in limbo, it sounds like the voice of the organization if the Wolves get some lottery luck tomorrow night is going to be Chris Wright.
Voice meaning he speaks to the media or voice meaning he makes the call on the draft pick…?
The Lottery…will this be the year we finally get some luck. The Wolves have never landed a top 2 pick in the NBA draft. I think a little luck like San Antonio or Orlando has had in the past would change this teams fortune more than a GM hire.
Ultimately, watching Kevin Love on the tube tomorrow and holding whatever lucky charm you have a little tighter is the make or break moment for the Wolves in this offseason. Choosing between Rubio or Griffin rather than Evans, DeRozan, or Curry is what this franchise needs.
I am 100% satisfied with Chris Wright being the voice of the organization…I have met him MANY times and he is the definition of a class-act.
Expression,
I think that Taylor’s actions over his life call for a bit of credit to be floated his way. As a soon to be graduated student, I can’t even imagine doing what he had done/was in the process of doing at my age. Graduating early, accepted into an elite grad school MBA program (Harvard I believe…) all while BASICALLY monopolizing (not literally, but essentially) an industry? You HAVE to respect/admire that. So yes, I do give him quite a bit of credit because I believe he deserves it. The passion for basketball he’s shown (he’s in the process of re-establishing a franchise all while basically redoing the Target Center out of his own pocket) does nothing but make me believe he deserves more credit than I give him.
No, no…just talking about tomorrow night and the organization’s reaction if they get one of the top three picks. A year ago, they made McHale and maybe Hoiberg (can’t remember) available after they got the third pick to give impressions of Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, O.J. Mayo and the team’s position in the draft, etc..
UofM student…is your last name by any chance Taylor?
Or Wright?
Ah, ok, that’s what I thought.
As for this GM thing, I guess I’m not sure where the team can go now. If it were up to me, I’d probably back off the stipulations and give Pfund a call again. But then again, if it were up to me, I wouldn’t have those stipulations in the first place and Pfund or Lindsay would already be hired…
Jerry, why is Glenn afraid to give the gig to Hoiber? He obviously wants him around. What is the deal?
Thanks Jerry. You’re about the only actual identifiable source we have on these things.
The Wolves made an offer;
but
the issue of coaching “was not an issue that
had come up”; and
there were “issues going back and forth”?
The cognitive dissonance here is pretty plain.
My best theory on that is he felt he went through a lot of learning on the job with McHale and doesn’t want to go through that again.
Speaking of Pfund, you had mentioned part of the reason he probably withdrew was because he wanted to preserve his image and not appear to have been beaten out by Penn. Any chance he reconsiders now? Or would Taylor have to alter the playing field for him to not feel like he’s just playing mind games?
aren’t they all going to have to learn on the job? aside from Pfund?
In the end all we hope for is a great GM but this charade is quite demoralizing at this point. Hopefully the Wolves will find a “diamond in the rough”.
I think they were, and will be, in two different dimensions as far as salary is concerned, Bryan, unless something has changed or changes.
Well, a guy like Penn has his limitations, but he has been in draft rooms with Jerry West, Kevin Pritchard and Chuck Daly and been involved in all the financial work for the last decade. Mac hadn’t done any of that when he was hired, and Hoiberg has scouted talent and been involved in a couple drafts. I think there’s a difference there.
So it’d probably be on Taylor to change his offer then. Well, I guess anything can happen at this point.
I wish they were sending someone other than Love to the lottery. I don’t even like looking at the dude and his ridiculous chinstrap.
UofM Student.
I think I have said that he should go back to his college slave plantation back in Mankato several times.
I happen to be from that area, and because of his slave labor we can’t look for jobs in the Mankato market because nothing pays in Kato because of his MONOPOLY on the area, lol.
So kudos to him. I am a graduate as well, and a business owner… so I can appreciate what he has done on that level, but just because I own this business doesn’t mean because of have money and decide to open a restaurant I can be the chef, and if I am it doesn’t guarentee that the food will be world class.
Do you see the point? compare it as to what it really is. In the greeting card and paper manufactoring he’s made a lot of money, and the more money you have in life the more opportunities you are allowed. He has his opportunity to own a team.
Don’t tell me he’s rebuilding a program… he is directly responsible for the fact that it SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is the one that signed McHale, stack, the worst coach in NBA history, the contracts of all those mediocre dead weight ball players… he’s the one that agreed to trade KG… and keeps McHale on the payroll for no qualified reason.
So yes I would like to have his money as would everyone else that makes less than him. That doesn’t mean that he’s any better at running the Timberwolves than my dead grandmother… she died in 1991, and I’m not sure she’d ever seen a basketball game in her life.
Expression:
Just a question, but you do you route for the team when you have so much anger at the owner, and the owner isn’t planning on selling at least right now. Their are 29 other basketball teams, what gives?
Centrist:
To be sure I’m reading you correctly are you saying if we don’t like the way the organization is run we should go be fans of another team?
I can’t imagine just arbitrarily picking up another team after following this franchise since its inception. It wouldn’t be the same.
We all understand, right, that every team has a “cap guru,” so that in outline this was not the end of the world because there are other qualified candidates? Penn seems to have been among the better-rounded examples of the breed, and his background in working with people like West and Daly seemed to make him a natural candidate to move up to the next level. It’s not that we were absolutely in love with the guy, though. Hardly any of us even knew his name two weeks ago.
The main thing that really stings here is that the whole process ground along for so long that now the timing’s right up against the lottery and then the draft. It looks for all the world like the Wolves were trying to tie up their whole situation, including the same old McHale thing from every other year, and they got wrongfooted, dragging things out before they finally made an offer.
McHale’s being our chief negotiator blew up in the entire league’s face with KG’s first huge contract, and it took some years after that for even qualified corrective actions to be made by Taylor. We still were botching things like Hudson’s contract’s injury provision and Banks’s Bird status many seasons later, even leaving alone Joe Smith. Finally, after the KG trade, the franchise seemed to clue into how cap space should figure in their decisions…. All of which is to say: I’m not sure Glen Taylor is going to learn any lessons from this in the next handful of months, let alone by June 25th.
I really don’t see what is so difficult to understand about the NBA CBA. Fred is a smart guy.
I’m not saying he would be my ideal GM or anything but if he were my choice I wouldn’t let his lack of contract / cba knowledge stop me from hiring him. It shouldn’t be too hard to find a lawyer / capologist type to advise him. The final decision maker should also be the authority when it comes to scouting. If the Wolves had simply made better scouting decisions under McHale (Roy, Granger, Thad Young etc.) they would be in great shape. They wouldn’t have needed a cap guru to make those moves. If GT believes Hoiberg is good enough to be his top personell man then he should make him the GM.
What I think Centrist is saying is don’t clog up Jerry’s blog with whiny posts over stuff we have no control over. There’s a difference between posting an opinion and having a discussion, and just wasting server space calling the team and everything attached to it the worst thing on the face of the planet.
Maybe Taylor isn’t the best owner out there, but he’s what we have and that’s not changing, so let’s focus on talking about the things that can change.
On Penn’s announcement. Sometimes recruitment comes down to timing. Penn has been heavily invested in the rebuilding of the Blazers yet he has not fully realized the fruits of their labor, their best years are ahead of them.
If he is nearly as talented as those of you project him to be, it will be a different story for him in 18 months. A new job title and salary bump only takes you so far. He will soon imagine being in Pritchard’s job rather than his own.
Too much is made of the “cap guru” nonsense. The fact is, most sports management groups don’t have a lot of profit and loss experience. Compared to being a CFO in a major corporation, a “cap guy” is pretty small change.
That’s fair, I have no problem with people trying to take a step back from the histrionics.
That pendulum does of course swing both ways though. You can’t battle unrelenting negativity with irrational exuberance.
who is the chief cap guru now?
who negotiated the contracts of Big Al, Smith, Gomes, & Telfair? Who figured out the Carney / Booth / 1st rounder deal? Do they need someone new for that? Or do they need one person to make better decisons when evaluating talent?
As an attorney, I think the benefit in hiring somebody with contract and CBA knowledge is the more times you negotiate, the more you learn and the more creative you can be. The more times you go into negotiations, the more times you haggle over certain provisions, and the more you learn over what works out well and what doesn’t. Hiring outside counsel is fine, but in a player contract type of transaction they are probably only going to comment on what’s there, and GT certainly doesn’ want to pay outside counsel to brainstorm on the clock.
Things that an experienced capologist could bring are things such as medical exceptions, deffered compensation, injury insurance, incentives that actually produce a motivated player, incentives that are legal under the CBA, proper negotiating tactics with player agents, how to structure rookie contracts, etc…
The NBA is also very much an old boy’s league, so having someone who already has a rapport with other General Managers and player agents is pretty important.
Which is why Kahn, as an essential NBA outside at this point, makes me skittish.
Centrist, that’s why lawyers get no respect. Don’t tell me that a CFO from a major corporation that contracts for talent in an analogous industry couldn’t easy handle a supposed “cap guy” role just fine. In fact, s/he would probably bring some unique perspective and ideas not yet employed.
Centrist - I have to respectfully disagree. Those things might be important if you’re in the NFL. In the NBA how many contracts do you have to negotiate each year? I don’t think encentive laden contracts are common in the NBA either. You don’t often hear of an NBA player hitting contract escalators. The rookie wage scale is pretty much set in stone. Since the KG trade the Wolves have actually made some smart moves in relation to the cap & cba. Where they have been consistently lacking is in the area of talent evaluation. If GT believes Hoiberg can evaluate talent based on what he has done asn an AGm then he should be promoted. There are obviously (based on recent track record of trades & contracts) people who are already on staff who are at least mildly competent capologists. If Fred isn’t a good enough scout then GT should be out there looking for guys whose job it is to evaluate talent not negotiate contracts. Or maybe they can get someone who has a track record of doing both: Hinkie
Centrist has a point though; CBA negotiations are going to be important right now because the current CBA is set to expire and Stern has already drawn a pretty fixed line in the sand about what the league and owners want in the next one.
Given that we (meaning the Wolves) basically caused the lockout when the last CBA expired, it can’t be anything but a benefit for our new boss to be thoroughly competent with the legal side of the NBA.
The real story here is that Glen Taylor is jealous of Donald Sterling, and is working hard to wrest the ‘worst owner’ crown from him.
Simmons.
Maybe jama now has a shot at Mr. Hinkie the Christmas Poo.
Maybe Glen will have learned his lesson the hard way through all of this and go back to Lindsey, offer him a blank check and a clean slate on which he can scribble his own Timberwolves identity as Lindsey sees fit.
Is there any message through all of this that is more clear than the fact that every candidate thinks it’s ridiculous that GT wants the new GM to “run” this basketball team, but only if McHale is the coach? How can a GM really be a GM if he’s not in a position to make big decisions like who the coach will be?
I’ve been a big Wolves fan for years, but I’ve never lost more respect for GT or the organization than through this whole GM-search. I honestly believe the Donald Sterling and Al Davis comparisons are legit.
[…] On the Wolves – […]
This has already turned into a circus might as well continue the trend…bring in Simmons.
I just don’t get it, all the crap being dumped on Glen Taylor. The man has brought NBA ball to and kept it in Minneapolis in hard times, and presently is probably losing well over $20M a year for this dubious privilege.
People, take a pill! What have YOU got at stake? A season ticket or two? Check what that would cost you in a comparable-city NBA market, and see if you still feel so inclined to whine.
http://www.nba.com/raptors/tickets/sshnew_seatingchart.html
The man has more negotiating experience than any of us, and obviously, GT is going to the best he can to shore up his front office staff. Personally, I can’t see any reason to feel either embarassment or pressure with this hire. With several franchises looking at dumping staff to prevent calving financially, it’s a buyer’s market.
I’m sure the T-Wolves organization already knows what it’s looking for in this draft. The real decisions about who to keep or trade and at what price will only come once we’re deep into summer training. I suspect there won’t be many changes, but that the T-Wolves with be the Cinderella team of next year.
Man, I just can’t wait til opening day with everyone healthy back on the court!
[…] would rather stay there than deal with Glen Taylor and (potentially) Kevin McHale. (Publicly, Penn cites the comfort level with the Blazers. I didn’t hear anything about a comfort level until Portland put on a “full court […]
Centrist…
I have been a fan since before Glen bought the team, and I will be a fan long after he sells them.
Do I cheer for this team? yes, and no. I want them to win the games when it matters, but the last few years by the end of November I’m wanting losses, and just looking for individual performances, and the things that one would look for out of young players… some growth to their games.
Al Jefferson has proven incapble, or unwilling to pass the ball.
Kevin Love is a very good player, much better than I expected, but he needs to play offensively away from the rim more… he’s too short in the middle.
Gomes is quietly becoming my favorite player on the team.
Mike Miller seemed freaking lost on this team last year, and I’m not sure if it was him, or the system… but a shooter is supposed to shoot the damn ball.
Randy Foye is predictable, and like a lot of people said from day one, might be best served as a 6th man.
I like Telfair as the backup PG… he isn’t quite good enough to start, but is a hell of a backup PG.
Madson is a joke, Rhyno is a 12th man, Brewer was hurt so I hope to see some growth out of him this year, but not sure how much he will grow because of the injury, and rehab… Cardinal surprised me last year which was cool. Our new backup PG didn’t impress me, but we didn’t see much of him… so little I can’t even remember his name, lol.
This team needs to get a starting PG, a starting Center, and an athletic 2 or 3 out of this draft. There are plenty of quality players to fill those needs at least on a servicable level, but not a lot for guarentees.
So while I have no love for Taylor… with a new GM, and a new Coach, and a little bit of luck, and talent in drafting this year… I think this team if healthy could win 40 games which isn’t a playoff team, but a team that could be fun to watch, and a team with real growth potential. That being said, if they are 15-20 games under .500 again by Xmas time… I think I know someone that can replace Christ on the Cross come Easter.
Art Redin…
Glen Taylor’s “losses” in the NBA are a write off for him… so please don’t expect some of us who have family members that have lost jobs, gone through foreclosure, or have been denied healthcare because the insurance industry, and medical industry have bought all of our political officials on both sides of the aisle… no way will I feel sorry for Glen, nor will I cut him any slack. When you are a celebrity, and when you are wealthy, and put yourself in the public eye you had damn well better deal with the backlash especially if what you do is a bad job. And for you to say that his product is worth more money than what we currently pay for tickets is insulting. This team doesn’t have 1 complete ball player on the team. It doesn’t have a GM, it has a terrible draft record, a horrible trade record, illegal transactions, and boneheaded contracts being handed out. And you want us to take a pill, and chill.
20 million dollars to Glen Taylor is a write off… he doesn’t even notice it, and it’s not all his money he’s losing, there are other people that have invested into this team as well. Glen Taylor just happens to be the lead dog, and therefore the guy that gets the say, and the guy who has to take the heat when the products sucks.
And frankly our wolves are neutered pups.
UofM Student and Art Redding are huge dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooshes.
“I suspect there won’t be many changes, but that the T-Wolves with be the Cinderella team of next year.”
I’m not going to insult you like some other people here might, but that is an exceptionally optimistic point of view.
I suspect, as assembled, the Timberwolves will win around 25 games next year.
Not sure if it is true or not, but Hoopsworld claims that Taylor demanding to keep McHale around was a part of the decision for Penn to decline the Wolves’ GM offer.
From Hoopsworld :
“Penn becomes the third person this offseason to shy away from the Timberwolves along with Dennis Lindsey of the San Antonio Spurs and Randy Pfund of the Miami HEAT. Penn’s agent mentioned his friendships and relationships in Portland as the reason why he decided to stay, but Wolves owner Glenn Taylor’s recent mandate that Kevin McHale can stay as head coach if he wants to also played a big role in his decision.”
Also,
“Meanwhile, front office people from around the league continue to drop out of the running for the Timberwolves’ GM position like it comes with the swine flu. ”
Some good stuff from Canis Hoopus :
25 games…if Al is healthy? They won 24 this past year with Wittman, the coaching change, and Al out for 1/2 the season. You might find more than a few people willing to put $ on that.
Criostoir,
>”who is the chief cap guru now?
>who negotiated the contracts of Big Al, Smith, >Gomes, & Telfair? Who figured out the Carney / >Booth / 1st rounder deal? Do they need someone >new for that? Or do they need one person to make >better decisons when evaluating talent?”
While I think Penn showed a bit more cap forward-thinking than the Wolves in the few sources we had about him — that Blazers blog for example, where he described how they’d anticipated using a trade exception before the trade that created it — I’m basically in line with your sentiment here. Aside from the option year on Telfair’s contract, the Wolves haven’t completely *blown* any cap-related decisions since the KG trade. They’ve been rather passive with respect to things like Miller’s cap number, with Glen talking about not trading Mike despite his becoming a fair asset due to that space, but they haven’t truly botched the cap stuff for a couple of years now.
This thinking is why a lot of us were initially hoping for someone like Lance Blanks, whose c.v. is full of scouting responsibilities instead.
The other thing I personally would love to see is a head guy who’s willing to emphasize statistical ways of thinking about player value more. That was one of the appeals of Lindsey, who originally came out of the Houston organization. Houston was an early numbers team in that other way, and made their deal for Battier based on some unconventional thinking that’s worked out. (Was it Jerry here who mentioned that Taylor has shown some interest in that way of evaluating talent? Late in the year there was a sort of conference of basketball stats people, and Mark Cuban was a big talking head there.)
The fact that Glen’s even looking for cap crunchers at this moment makes me wonder, again, if he’s just belatedly acting on lessons of three or four years ago though. Maybe he’s shy of hiring more talent people because he’s got the loyalism thing happening with Hoiberg, too.
Dang it, we want a resolution here.
Lots of speculation, and we’ll soon see where things net out. In my opinion we need to keep Fred Hoiberg in the mix. What this organization desperately needs is someone, finally, with some personnel expertise who can call the shots.
Come on ! No #3 pick and Thabeet ! No Whammy No Whammy . Stop ! (Horrible noises) Oh no ! Whammy ! Thabeet !
The above scenario will make me upset.
I respect the fact that Glen Taylor has been very successful in the printing industry. I’m glad that he bought the team and has kept it in town.
That, however, doesn’t mean he’s a successful executive in the basketball industry. And, after watching the current basketball operations staff run this team into the ground, the smart thing for Taylor to do would be to hire an outside person and give them free rein to run the team, and then hold them accountable as an employee. The time for letting your friends run the team should be over.
Bring in Bill Simmons - he would make the team better!
Whats Bobby Knight doing these days…he’d be an interesting choice as GM…He’d stir things up and throw a chair or two and hopefully McHale!
I think we have the great untapped resource right under our noses. He was GM of Lakers.
SID HARTMANN
p.s. He wouldn’t need a long term contract either…..
I’m no longer going to respond to this thread because by having an opinion that, gasp, differs from the others that respond to this blog I am automatically assumed to be wrong. My attempts to chill people on in regards to the attacks on Taylor/McHale are clearly doing no good, nor are my points on the front office being significantly better than some seem to think here. The fact is that 8 straight playoff berths IS an accomplishment for ANY front office in ANY sport. Turning the horrendous roster we had but three-four years ago into what now holds the keys for any rebuilding team (draft picks, cap space, young talent) is a significant accomplishment. Ever since the Stack/Hoiberg/McHale front office came into effect the team has managed some very admirable moves. Modest contracts have been given out, and amassing picks has also become a priority. They learned from the mistakes of overpaying below par talent and have shown definite signs of knowing where to move a team in terms of rebuilding. I’ll probably be ridiculed for again saying I approve of the franchise and its owner
Ha UofM…you think you are gonna change anyone’s mind ? Much to learn danielson.
Of course you’ll be ridiculed. But who cares. There are only like 5-6 people on here who know anything….the other 8 Wolves fans in the state don’t have computers….
U of M: Eight consecutive playoffs appearances isn’t all that unusual. In the past 30 years, 15 other NBA teams have had streaks that long. They are:
Utah (20), Lakers (17 years), Boston, Chicago, and Knicks (14 years), Phoenix (13 years), San Antonio (12 years currently and 19 of the last 20 years), Milwaukee (12 years), Dallas (currently at 9 years), Denver (9 years), Indiana (9 years, and a stretch of 16 out of 17 years), Philadelphia (9 years, and a stretch of 12 out of 13 years), Detroit (8 years currently), and Sacramento (8 years). And, there’s Houston which had two seven-year runs split by one non-playoff year.
And not only that, but the Wolves did nothing when they got to the playoffs. One Western Conference finals run is nothing. The only teams that haven’t been to the WCF during Taylor and McHale’s tenure are the Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies, and Hornets.
Are you quoting Yoda??
UofM — I would also suggest that it’s much easier to tear down a team than it is to rebuild it. If you don’t care about winning, and you’re just looking to clear things away, you can make moves. The difficulty comes when trying to make moves that you expect will make the team better now.
Jerry - You probably aren’t paying attention to this post any more since it has been awhile, but I am curious if you are hearing anything regarding what the wolves may do. Is it total chaos over there right now?
Sean -
I agree, that 8 Years in a row is nothing to be proud of. What I think this team can be proud of though is the fact they did 8 years in a row without a Top 3 draft pick. Let’s face it, the NBA is a star’s league where if you get the #1 pick (Duncan, Robinson, LeBron, Iverson, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Shaq or are an attractive free agent destination). The Wolves lottery luck more than any other single factor in the Team’s history is what has hurt its chances.
The only reason the team was turned around for 8 years was because we got lucky in starting the trend of drafting a high school player.
Now I am not giving the Wolves a free pass on decisions that were in there control, i.e. Joe Smith, Troy Hudson, Hassell, Marbury-Allen, Foye-Roye, Madsen, Blount-Davis, Howard, James, etc. Those were bad news and the organization deserves to be panned.
But on the night when fortunes turn, when team’s fates hang in the balance of two Suits from Ernst and Young and some ping pong balls, let’s be optimistic and imagine a lineup of three starting PF’s or everyone favorite grungy spaniard dishing out dimes from the perimeter. Is it going to happen, no, but tomorrow we can’t even dream, for 8 more hours we get to embrace fantasy as a possible reality.
I realize I forgot Laettner as a top 3 pick. Well, he shouldn’t count, since Shaw and Zo were #1 and #2…
Centrist — I just don’t think you an use the lottery as a crutch. The Wolves have squandered a lot of opportunities outside of the lottery to build a good team. If they had done the best that they could excepting the lottery, I’d be much more charitable to the Taylor-McHale regime. McHale deserves credit for the KG pick in 1995. That was a risky move, and he was right. I also don’t blame McHale for the Marbury-Allen deal.
But the litany of mistakes is far longer than the list of good moves. And some of them are so bad (Joe Smith prime among them) that they are inexcusable in my book.
And to that end, the notion that anyone in this front office should be entitled to retaining their job is absurd to me. For Taylor to be making that a condition of hire for the new leader is foolish. No one in this organization has accomplished anything that merits that sort of condition. If the new GM wants to keep Hoiberg or McHale, fine. But if they want to start fresh, they should be allowed to start fresh.
Sean -
We continue to come back to this same argument for some reason, and I feel like your trying to convince people that the Wolves have made mistakes. I think any fan of this franchise is well aware of that fact. By bringing up the lottery I was just giving thought to factors that were out of the team’s control, factors that can’t be labeled as management mistakes.
I just don’t know what point you are trying to prove, so I am going to guess
(1): We should pool all our money together and buy the team from GT
(2): By all accounts McHale has been removed from his personnel role. Yes he is still the coach, but I don’t think anyone is arguing that Red Auerach could Telfair into Bob Cousy. Even if their is the argument that McHale someone influenced the draft day trade for Love, because it was widely reported that McHale liked him, I think all rational basketball minds will agree that the Wolves got the better end of that deal, both financially and based on talent.
(3): By all accounts Glen is looking for a GM that is more skilled in the business aspects of the game and he plans to keep Hoiberg and Philo in their scouting roles. No matter who the hire is, Hoiberg and Philo will be the ones prepping that new GM on the current organizational opionion of draftable players. You may disagree with this decision, but that’s the decision that has likely been made, so not hiring a GM hasn’t hurt our ability to draft per se, because Hoiberg is likely to remain the most vocal voice in the room.
(4): Bringing in somebody from the outside to completely shake up the organization, is far from a fool proof plan for success. Yes, it may give you hope that the people you have a personal grudge against for supposedly ruining the franchise may be departed, but let’s not fantasize that someone else coming is going to automatically hit a home run. In a typical draft, 2-3 players turn out to have successfull productive NBA careers as cornerstone players. Some drafts are more, some are less. Usually the majority of those cornerstone players are drafted 1-3 with maybe one coming from later in the draft. No matter who is making the Wolves picks it’s going to be a difficult task.
(5): I don’t want you to stop beating the drum about how bad Taylor is as an owner, that’s your opinion, but unlike player personnell we can’t trade Glen Taylor + 2 1st round picks for Mark Cuban. It may be difficult to accept, but GT is the owner, and in the event he chooses to sell, the situation could get substantially worse in that in could turn into a Clay Bennett situation. I should know, I live in Seattle, was at the final Sonics home game, and now we have no team. I have to drive to Portland to catch a Wolves game. As a fan of the NBA it’s horrible. GT may be bad, but at least you have a team.
Allow me to respond to a few of the points:
3.) I realize that we’re not any worse situation today. The problem is we’re not any better. The recent draft record of this team isn’t anything to toot one’s horn about except in comparison to where we were a few years ago. So, no, I don’t agree with the decisions Taylor is making about requiring these folks to be retained in the organization.
4.) I don’t believe I’ve ever suggested hiring someone new is sure-fire. What I have suggested is that I don’t trust the current folks to make those decisions, and as such getting an outside voice who has no personal investment in validating the decisions made by the previous regime is key. I believe this organization needs a leader that has a vision of how to build this team and how this team will play basketball. The current organization has been completely unable to do that. The fact that Taylor is unwilling to truly turn that page is incredibly disappointing to me. This is a critical juncture for this franchise. The next year or so will set the direction of the team for the next five years.
And I don’t hold a personal grudge against anybody in this organization — I’m evaluating their record on the court. Kevin McHale is one of the least accomplished player personnel leaders in NBA history, based on what this team accomplished in the playoffs for the span of time he was in charge. I find McHale to be an entertaining guy to listen to, and I’ve heard nothing but wonderful things about Taylor and Hoiberg as individuals. But it’s about results. And the results haven’t been there.
5.) Of course I realize we can’t fire Glen Taylor. But that doesn’t mean I should keep my mouth shut when he’s doing things that I believe are harmful to the team. Could my opinion end up being wrong? Sure. Could it be worse with somebody else owning the team? Sure. But I refuse to hold Taylor to such a low standard that I’m merely thankful there’s a team here in town and I refuse to view this team with a critical eye.
Centrist,
If you live in Seattle just root for OK City. They are a much more interesting team to root for, have two of the most exciting young players in Westbrook and Durant, and probably will have a higher pick than the Wolves this year.
Sure the owner is lame, but hey, for the love of the game, just root for them.
Me, I’m just about to jump on the Portland bandwagon. That Penn guy is just so exciting. 
I predict the wolves will get the 5th pick tonight……and Harden on draft night!!!! boo and boo….
Pffffttttt OK City & Clay can eat it.
Simmons…
Rodman -
After being at the Key for the final game where the fans chanted “Clay Bennett Sucks” for an entire 2nd half of basketball while Gary Peyton was on the Jumbotron jumping in, I could never root for anything owned by Clay Bennett. If they move up in the Lottery I will be even more upset. Karma says they shouldn’t sniff the top 3 picks for years.
The fact of the matter is that this IS a very critical juncture for the team. They have worked diligently to get out from under bad contracts and personalities. They’ve managed to do that while picking up several picks, cap space, and attractive expiring contracts leading into these two big FA years.
The point of concern is that they keystone of the franchises turnaround starts after tonight. Once those picks are locked in, the FO needs to start planning on what they’re going to do with those 3 first rounders, 2 second rounders, cap space, marketable contracts, weighing this year’s incoming class with chances of good position in what promises to be a good draft class next year. Everyone is aiming at 2010, and the next month or so will set a lot of that into motion.
Who are the voices, where is the vision, who is the undeniable name that other teams and agents can deal with? The Wolves opportunities are at a maximum right now. It’s important that there is someone (or structure) in place that moves this rebuilding phase to the next step.
Centrist,
That reminds me of being at the Met Center the last few weeks before the North Stars left for Dallas. The non-stop chants about Norm Green… Norm Sucks!! Norm Sucks!! They still ring in my head. Of course, the Stars then had to go and win a Cup a few years later.
Yah…Norm sucks…McCombs sucks…Pohlad sucks…new Pohlad sucks…all suck more than Taylor…who still sucks.
Well, Pohlad certainly sucked when he tried to have his own team contracted out of the league. The fact that the family stepped up and laid some of its own money down to get that stadium done… well that is a small mitigating factor.
I’ve heard/seen a lot of people lament the Wolves are the laughing stock of the league and then in the next breath endorse Bill Simmons for GM. Trust me, the laughter you hear now won’t even come close to the hilarity that ensues if Simmons is put in charge of basketball operations. If we’re going the journalist route, I’d just as soon put Zgoda in charge. At least we know then his blog would be accurate. Not to imply it isn’t now…
New guy posting here…so what is the best scenario that could play out for the Wolves in the draft? (I’m ignoring the front office vacancy because it is too frustrating to think about, so let’s dream about better things). With the 3 1st rounders this year, how do they best utilize those? Keep all 3? Who do they take? Package 2 of them to move up and select a specific player?
Calling all 8 Wolves fans to weigh in on this one…I don’t follow college basketball enough to know much about the incoming rookies.
Blake Griffin
For giggles, Swan, what to the Wolves do if they happen to land the first pick and decide to draft Griffin? What would you do then? (I ask primarily from a overloaded personnel perspective)
The best scenario would be getting the #1 pick and being able to turn #18 and #28 into a late lottery pick or trading them with expirings for a veteran player.
Jake - Keep him.
Sean - Yeah. Wing or point ?
If we don’t get #1 or 2 I’m in favor of packagig whatever pick we do get and any of our expiring contracts for one of those two picks.
That’s unlikely so the next best scenario is drafting James Harden and packing #18, #28, any of their 2nd round picks and/or some combo of expiring contracts to move as high into the lottery as possible. Grab the best player available. I like Ty Lawson a lot and can’t really understand why he isn’t considered a top 5 pick.
The Wolves have to figure out a way to turn some collection of their assets into an upgrade at PG and a scoring wing. Unfortunately, it will be hard to find anything but a gamble at 18 or 28. Even with the overload at PF, Griffin is not a bad pick, but one of the triple threat of AJ, Love or Griffin would need to be moved in the near future. Not because the Wolves couldn’t use all 3 on the roster, but because they can’t afford to open the season with the same backcourt.
If the 18 pick brought in a potential starting guard I could change my mind, but that is pretty unlikely. 451’s idea that the Wolves need to get starters at PG and C as well as a quality wing out of this draft is essentially fantasy. For one, there are no starting centers in this draft.
I gathered that, Swan. I mean, what next? Do you keep both Al and K-Love and Griffin? Do you move K-Love?
You wouldn’t draft Griffin with the eye of not keeping him.
Also, I so can’t wait for the lottery so that there will be some discussion that doesn’t involve anti-front office rants and woe-is-me, none-of-it-matters-because-the-franchise-is-doomed-or-the-idiots-will-screw-it-up-anyway whining.
You’ve got to move Love if you get Griffin. Griffin celarly is a better talent than Love and Jefferson’s trade value is diminished coming off of injury.
It would be ironic if Kevin Love brings home a top three draft pick only to find the player selected takes minutes away from him.
Swan — I would take the best available. Ideally, I would prefer a point guard, because I think wing players are easier to find.
Jake - Keep em & destroy every front court in the league…EVERY ONE OF THEM.
Thats just me though. Nobody else thinks you can have one 6′10 guy and a couple of 6′9 guys as your 3 bigs. I think thats just plain wrong.
Yet some of these guys think that getting Thabeet would somehow be better for the team than Griff. Which I don’t get at all.
Draft wings and points with the other picks or as Sean said package those & expiring deals for a solid vet wing or point. You then build around Al, Griff, Love, Brewer…find a steady 2 guard and a starting point. Boom. Playoffs.
Tom - Griff, Love & Al would keep all fresher at the end of games and late in the season. I don’t see any of those 3 getting all pissy about minutes if it leads to wins.
Ox’s Mom here again. Any us us can script out the top of the lottery within a player or two. Where really great teams have distinguised themselves has been late in the first and also in the second round. That’s where McHale didn’t exactly establish himself as a great talent guy. I’m hoping that’s where a guy like Hoiberg might find an occasional diamond in the rough who can make a meaningful contribution.
Swan,
I agree that it’d be nice to have those bigs. But we need at least one stud with the ball in his hands to finish games. This is what was missing most of the KG era. I’m tired of it.
Rod - Yah. Thats what Sean was implying with that trade the other picks & some expiring for a point.
Hell, trade Miller & the 18th to Phx and get Barbosa. Who can play the 1 or 2…defend and shoot outside….that is if we get the #1. They need picks & young blood.
THe ideal situation for the wolves tonight would be to land the #1 pick and for someone like
OKC to land the #2. Then we could work a trade with the #2 team to swap and get more assets.
We would prefer Rubio over Griffith.
As for keeping Love, Griffith and Al, you cant do it. I’ve said all along that you cant have your
top 3 players all playing the same position. You need to figure out who’s going to be in the game
the last 5 minutes. Most games are won and lost in that time. So you cant afford to have one of
your best guys on the bench during that time. To me, if you end up with Griffith…
you keep him for a year…see which 2 of the 3 your going to keep…then trade one next
offseason. By then you also know more of what your team is missing. Maybe we get lucky and pick 18 lands
us a decent player. Then you know that. You do NOT make a trade of one of those 3 bigs before next
year….
Swan,
I’d be real happy with that.
Overall, if we don’t get the #1, I’m in the guard camp. Will be an interesting night.
Mario Chalmers.
He’s not great, but he’d certainly have us talking a lot less about needing to upgrade at point. That trade is one of the more overlooked failings of last offseason… kid can play defense and is a substantial upgrade over what we have, and we just gave him away.
Thunder win the lottery. Despite playing in a small market, this will give the league another young team to challenge Portland in the years to come and make sure that KD gets the spotlight he needs. Add Griffin to that squad and they’d be tough for a decade.
Kings - Sure you can…you find one good wing or point with our other picks and expiring and you’re golden.
Plus from what I’ve been reading Griff is such a freak he is fast enough to guard some small forwards.
Mario Chalmers gets to play with ball dominant D-Wade…ooooh…hard to look good there.
Anyone think McHale may be waiting to see if he hit the lottery?
Swan Dizzle — huh? Did you think that one through or just decide to type it? Do you think that giving Chalmers away for cash made sense? Have you seen him play? The guy’s a top-notch defender, which has nothing at all to do with Wade, and a decent passer. Sure, he wins more games because he plays with Wade, but it’s entirely possible to evaluate his talent without putting Wade in the equation, and if you watched him at all, he’s clearly an upgrade over Telfair or whoever we’ve got.
He’s waiting for that and the GM.
If we get the #1 he stays…fact. Working with those 3 bigs would be a dream for him.
Kil - Yeah I think he was worth a second rounder and cash.
Swan
You’re absolutely crazy if you think Chalmers doesn’t have more value then 2 mid 2nd round picks and a million dollars. The Wolves could offer the Heat a million and the #18 pick for Chalmers and I don’t think the Heat would take that deal. It was a horrible trade at the time it was made and it looks even worse now.
Here’s my front office fantasy for the Wolves. It plays out like a scene from the Godfather.
The new Don takes over the franchise. Everyone is getting their new assignments in the organization.
Kevin McHale knocks on his door eagerly awaiting the nod for a new season.
The new Don stares at him coldly and says, “Kevin, you still have to answer for Marko Jaric.”
Kevin: “What do mean, we traded him?”
Don: “But the Clippers still await that first round pick. It’s some unfinished business. Very unpleasant. Now get outta my sight.”
Jama - Im not a Chalmers guy sorry.
Plus:
1) Its not a given we would have drafted Chalmers in that spot
and
2) He wouldn’t have made the team pre-Love-Mayo trade.
He would have made the roster and at the very least have spent this past season in the D-League.
Let’s assume the Wolves weren’t going to draft Chalmers, the trade still stunk. You don’t trade a high 2nd round pick in a deep class for 2 mid to low 2nd round picks in a horrible draft. If someone can make sense of that trade they deserve a medal.
Jama,
You can’t forget how bad our other second round pick was too. It was a perfect storm of suckitude.
Jama - How ? With Mayo, Foye, Brewer, Telfair, Marko, Buckner…he wouldn’t have made the squad.
Everyone needs to get over Chalmers and that trade. He isn’t a star, he is servicable. You can find plenty of guys like him.
Even if you don’t take Chalmers there, why trade the pick for two picks the following year? There were still plenty of guys on the board who were considered first-round talents. Why not take one of those guys instead?
Answer: Taylor wanted the money. Anyone who tells me Taylor isn’t cheap needs to explain why so many deals lately have involved the Wolves getting cash and little on-court return.
Swan,
I think the point is we had two high 2nd rounders in a deep draft and having nothing to show for beside two very low picks in a weak draft. Maybe we’ll pull a bunny out of the hat.
But I think we should give them a little hard time for the Pekovic pick. Let’s look at the facts… How many good eastern European centers have their been? And no Rasho doesn’t count, because he’s softer than a jelly doughnut.
And second, why would we “stash” a pick, when our team already is awful?
I’m sure they did it, because “that what teams like the Spurs do.” Only problem is the Spurs can afford to do that, and the Wolves need help now.
All in all, you could not have screwed up those two picks any more if you tried.
Anyone know whatever happened to the Pekovic guy. The guy everyone said was the automatic first pick of the second round because of contract restrictions? Let’s get him and Griffin out of the draft and keep Craig Smith and put all 5 bigs on the floor.
That’s entertainment.
Sabonis !
Pekovic was the consensus # pick of Round 2. Any other team makes that pick. And from what I have seen, I don’t think he is soft at all.
Those 5 bigs are going to create some mismatches!
Chad Ford just solved the Wolves dilemma. Keep Griffin and Al and package Love and Miller for backcourt help.
I might be forced to stop watching if the two players on the roster who actually know how to play basketball are traded.
5 & Dime - Ford sucks. You keep all 3, use the other picks, expiring contracts and whoever else on the roster not named Brewer they want to get an awesome point or wing. Sean’s idea is the best.
fiveanddime:
I couldn’t agree more, why package love and Miller for backcourt help, are you really going to find a PG via trade with more potential than Rubio.
Is Griffin + Sessions (with $$$ contract) + Filler - Love - Miller
Better than
Rubio while keeping Miller and Love
Actually, that would be a tough call, not sure if Milwaukee does that trade, I don’t see them valuing Miller, but the best I could come up with…
If we get Rubio we need to keep Miller.
Swan,
Good call. I couldn’t remember his name. He was great, but he cursed all future GMs hoping for the next Sabonis, the passing big man. I think a certain GM in Detroit may have nightmares related to that.
When people say backcourt that doesn’t mean only a PG. I would trade Love right now for a go to scoring #2. Even if this team does improve it will never take the final steps to make the playoffs until it has a go to scorer who can create their own shot with the ball in their hands. When was the last time a team advanced to the NBA Finals without a ballhandler who could create their own shot and actually knock it down when it counted?
Other then Cassell the Wolves never had that player to pair with KG. I actually think that might be a bigger need then a PG>
Matt,
From the sounds of things Pekovic is looking at a huge contact over there, and probably will never come over.
Excellent point Jama,
My setiments exactly.
SENTIMENTS.
Jama - Thats silly. So you then have a giant gaping hole in the “bigs” department…get completely owned by every single team inside…wear out Al…you can get that which you claim we need the most with the expiring and picks. Trading Love for a scoring 2 would be silly.
I do agree a shot creater is needed. Even though it was more necessary for a KG team than it is a Big Al team.
I want picks 1 or 5. Griffin, no to Rubio, no to Thabeet, would love the 4th pick but we can’t get it, and then there’s 5, the best of the rest. I guarantee that the best player in this years draft won’t come from the top 3.
jama, of course the wolves need a scoring 2. But, if you trade one of your two NBA-quality starters to get one, you’re just creating another hole in the lineup.
Right now I don’t think you can get equal value in a trade for Love (too much skepticism until he proves himself) or Jefferson (coming off injury) or even Miller (declining production from previous years). I’d love to see a trade where we turn some of the remaining flotsam into a starting PG or wing, but that’s going to require a superb slight of hand or finding the perfect situation of a desparate trading partner.
Rod - Whats yer beef with Rubio ?
I’d only draft him #1 if we still had Harlan announcing. That would be incredible.
Scoring point guard or scoring wing…makes little difference actually.
He just scares me. He took like 2-3 jumpers a game and scored all on lay-ups. Plus I can pick my teeth with his arms.
I keep trying to find a guy like him who’s been successful and I just can find it.
Could be totally wrong, but I could see this guy getting schooled by the quick powerful guards in the league.
I know he did well in the Olympics, but I don’t know… a lot of hype there.
I will say this… if Rubio is for real, he’d be a lot of fun to have on the team.
Rodman, I’m close to agreeing with you. One problem is that Harden could be gone at 5. Then who do you pick? If Harden goes at 4, the general consensus seems to be that you roll the dice on one of the slashing, athletic 2s who have never shown they can hit an outside shot in colege. Or one of two 18-19 yr old PGs who have more potential than present day skill.
You guys that think the Wolves are going to be able to turn the #18 and/or #28 and/or expiring contracts into a high quality starting player are out of your minds. You guys don’t realize how horrible this draft is. I understand that teams are looking to dump salaries but those draft picks have very little value especially the last 1st rounder. The real trade piece that nobody has brought up yet is the 2nd 1st round pick they have next year. Next years draft is much deeper and will have more quality players in it then this years.
I won’t be suprised at all if the Wolves have no takers on trying to trade their picks. The only tradeable assets they have are Cardinal and Miller’s contracts along with next years pick. I’ll be shocked if they get a difference maker out of those pieces.
Jama - Expiring, Picks & Foye !
In a weak draft, nobody is going to move one guaranteed rookie contract for two guaranteed rookie contracts (our No. 18 and 28).
I’d love to see us move one of our two later picks, but it doesn’t seem likely.
I agree Jama,
But I still think you will find quality players who turn out OK, late in this 1rst round and into the second round. It’s just that we never find those guys.
It will be a challenge for the Wolves because those are three guaranteed contracts with 3 first rounders.
Plus I guarantee the Wolves will sell at least one of their 2nd rounders (Knicks don’t have one).
Like that idea Swan.
But let’s make sure we have drafted a guard first.
Yeah I think there are teams w/o picks who actually would like to get a pick regardless of how good this draft seems. I think the old and aging Spurs don’t have one…
Rod - That trade of expiring, picks and Foye would be for a guard….
Fiveanddime,
I get all starry eyed at DeRozan and Evans (and even Jennigs)… I’ll admit it probably has less to do with who they are, but simple the concept of a large, super athletic 2 guard.
Gotcha Swan. I like it.
Anyone see LeBron’s shot in practice yesterday?
Rod - Seriously…Hardin over those two guys !
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=PreDraftTour-090515
Here’s Lebron’s shot…
I know Swan… You’re right. I think he’s this year’s Brandon Roy.
But it’s the athleticism that wows me with those guys.
Think Hardin will go 4… naturally one pick ahead of the Wolves.
Rodman, I think you might be backing the wrong horse. I think Holiday may be a better pick than Jennings. I don’t think either is NBA ready. I saw a ton of DeRozan this past year, and he is a work in progress who will hopefully develop an outdie shot and better defense. Evans could easily be better than I fear, but I can’t really stand the thought of watching another T-Wolf dominating the ball and over-dribbling.
Yup I know.
To be honest I have seen a ton of any of them to make a really informed opinion.
Just hope we pick ball players. Last year, if you saw them play at all, it was obvious Rose would be great. It was also obvious a guy like Eric Gordon would be very good. You could just see it. Same with Love… he just knew how to play.
This year, it seems much more raw.
“I have not seen a ton of any of them.”
[…] would rather stay there than deal with Glen Taylor and (potentially) Kevin McHale. (Publicly, Penn cites the comfort level with the Blazers. I didn’t hear anything about a comfort level until Portland put on a “full court […]
