The Amare rumor: Kahn calls Al to assure him
Posted on June 18th, 2009 – 10:57 AMBy Jerry Zgoda
David Kahn just called Al Jefferson this morning and assured him the Wolves are not trading him and the sixth pick to Phoenix for Amare Stoudemire.
The Boston Globe’s Marc Spears put the rumor up on his blog, but the Wolves have refuted it, saying the Suns called with the offer and Kahn turned it down.
I heard last night from a good source that a Jefferson-Stoudemire trade has definitely been talked about, but at this point lots of things always are talked about.
Jefferson and No. 6, though, seems like far too high a price to pay for a player who has been put out on a fire sale.
Here’s what I know: Kahn sure seems intent on making a big splash and I think anything’s possible.
No one on the roster is safe, and that includes Jefferson — who yesterday said he is well ahead of schedule on his rehab from knee surgery and expects to be ready for contact by August or September at the latest – if it’s the right deal.
I think yesterday’s news was the first step of many in Kahn making this his team and not Kevin McHale’s.
Logically, you’d think the only players who might not be traded at this point are Jefferson and Corey Brewer, but only because they’re both recovering from knee surgeries.
It’s already clear the Kahn is very much concerned about a player’s value, his salary and how it fits into the big picture with the cap.
He really is focused on managing the cap.
That’s why I think Mike Miller definitely will be traded by draft night and why Randy Foye likely will be as well.
I’m betting Kahn is looking ahead to Foye’s next contract and saying to himself what it will cost to re-sign Foye is beyond his worth.
That’s also why I think in time either Kevin Love or Jefferson will go.
Eventually, Love’s going to get big money and Kahn doesn’t want such a big chunk of his cap consumed by two players who basically play the same position.
Expect Kahn to try to use Miller or Foye and the team’s additional draft picks to try and get another top 10 pick in addition to their No. 6 pick so they can get UConn center Hasheem Thabeet, a true shot-blocker.
I think he wants to use all this capital the Wolves accumulated to come out with two really good pieces — not four or five — out of the draft.
I do think Kahn is committed to the long term and I think one of the differences he had with McHale is that Mac wanted to make moves that would make the team immediately better next year.
Kahn looks like he’s willing to be patient. Mac wanted a veteran playmaker — a Tracy McGrady or Caron Butler being the available ones who come to mind — to add to Al in the hopes the Wolves could win 45 games and perhaps make the playoffs.
Expect Kahn to stay relatively young — Stoudemire’s only 26 — and aim for a team that at the least is capable of winning 50 games, the bare threshold for success in the Western Conference.
Buckle up.
It’s going to be a wild week between now and next Thursday’s draft.
Any rumors you hear? Well, I think just about anything is possible.
UPDATE ON WORKOUTS:
Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, Jonny Flynn, Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague and French guard Nando De Colo are due in tomorrow morning for a big group point-guard workout and Tyreke Evans is scheduled to do a solo workout in the afternoon. Teague is a return participant. He was part of those group workouts a couple weeks ago with Eric Maynor, but got hurt early and sat the rest of the session.
Looks like DeMar DeRozan’s solo workout has been been pushed to early next week.
Checked with someone close to Thabeet to see if the Wolves are going to get a look at him and was told he won’t work out for the Wolves but might do a meet-and-greet with them.
188 Responses to "The Amare rumor: Kahn calls Al to assure him"
Half of that I liked and half I hated.
Good stuff Jerry. Do you know who the players coming in for the workout are tomorrow? I think things will get crazy on draft night, looking forward to it.
Well the part I didn’t like is that Corey Brewer sounds like he will be around for another year. Not sure how many teams will want Al with his knee, so wouldn’t be surprised if Love is moved before Al. Mike Miller and Foye getting traded doesn’t hurt my feelings one bit.
Jerry,
Any chance we can get a chat with you like the writers covering the other local squads have been doing?
Good idea, Jama. We’ll get one in the works. About time I learned how to do one.
Don’t want Amare. His knee scares me long term, plus I think he would hate playing up here. I hope they find a point guard somehow in this draft/trade.
Kahn’s early statements about buying low and selling high make me think Jefferson and Brewer will not be traded since their values are depressed do to injuries. I think Mike Miller is the Wolves second biggest bargaining chip after the #6 pick. He can still play and is an expiring contract, so you’d think teams that want to compete next year while also keeping payroll down for the summer of 2010 would be all over him.
If Kahn is concerned about player value versus what he is going to get paid why would he even consider trading for Amare?
Jama, did you see Miller play last year? I don’t think teams will be all over him!
Jerry,
Have you heard any players the Wolve might be interested in trading for? For as open and talkative as Kahn has been, he’s been pretty quiet about who his targets may be.
He’d do it if he believes Amare is a No. 1 guy, which I don’t think he thinks Al is. I would suggest, though, that everybody look at their head-to-head meetings. Al just killed Amare and the Suns, which is one reason why I think the Suns traded for Shaq because Big Al showed how vulnerable they were inside.
Miller played pretty damn well if you’re a contending team looking for a guy to do all the little things and who doesn’t need the ball to contribute. Granted, he absolutely refused to do the one thing the Wolves needed him to do — shoot and score — but he did everything else.
And Kahn isn’t going to come out publicly and say who he wants to trade for.
Jerry, if we stay at 6, who do you think will still be there and who would you take?
Amare’s one year away from FA and is probably going to get a max deal. Isn’t Jefferson at $12 million per a much better value than Amare at $17-$18 million per?
A straight up trade of Jefferson for Amare doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me unless Kahn wants to turn the Wolves into an up and down run and gun kind of team. And even then I’m not sure the trade would be worth it.
Jerry,
Has Kahn called Love and told him they aren’t going to trade him for the #2 pick? I know that trade has somewhat been shot down but that trade seems more reasonable than the Amare/Al trade.
Did Kahn tell Jefferson they weren’t going to trade him at all or that they weren’t going to make that trade with the Suns?
Thanks for all your updates you’re doing a nice job.
This team has never had a legit point guard, other than those couple of tantalizing years with Steph. They NEED to find a point guard over anything else!
You think Phoenix was trying to pull a fast one on our Kahn? Beware of the Wrath of Kahn……
Great post Jerry. Some exciting stuff.
To me the key thing lacking about Amare is his lack of leadership ability.
If you are going paid to be “the man” then you better be a leader.
Korea,
From last thread you mention Hakeem didn’t play until he was 15. I was thinking something like that might be true.
It does provide a glimmer of hope for Thabeet. He seems like he works hard. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he turns into a star.
Jerry - is there any scuttle about the Wolves attempting to get Raymond Felton?
Have not heard a word about Felton.
At six, my best bets for the Wolves are: 1. Evans. 2. Curry. 3. Jonny Flynn.
If I were picking, I’d take Jrue Holiday because I think their biggest need is perimeter defense and he’s a big point guard who’d solve so many problems. Sounds like that wasn’t the real Jrue Holiday you saw last year at UCLA.
I have a tough time coming up with guys that would actually available and be worth trading Al for - especially with Al coming off of surgery.
If you believe the rumors, maybe Chris Paul or Tony Parker could be had. Amare? Not an upgrade.
i think i’m becoming more of a fan of tyreke evans at point instead of rubio, especially since he has that huge buy out with his europe team, and may not even be able to play here this year
Just added an update at the end of this post with news of tomorrow’s workouts: Jennings, Holiday, Flynn, Lawson, Teague and De Colo in a point-guard workout in the morning, Evans solo in the afternoon.
If they are trying to move back up into the top 10 by dealing Miller or Foye, any idea who they might be targeting?
I’m thinking they would be targeting Demar Derozan if they move and get another top 10 pick. He has huge upside and he plays the same position as Mike Miller/Foye.
I’ve heard that Flynn has been the alpha-dog of similar groups. He has a real strong personality. Think he’s going to be a great point.
Keep pushing back DeRozan’s workout. Indefinitely if possible.
Jerry,
What do you think of a Foye for Joakim Noah swap with necessary filler especially if Bulls lose Gordon? Bulls are also appearently looking at BJ Mullens.
Noah is young, cheap and more’explosive’ than Pekovic and makes a nice 3 man rotation with Al and Kevin.
Even if he looks to dump one of them, Noah is an active, athletic shot blocker. Run it by the Kahn man when you see him.
On ESPN today, Chad Ford also shoots down the Al/Stoudemire rumor saying he talked to PHX about it. There is also an interesting Hollinger article about projecting college stats to the pros.
He says he saw Foye underachieving. For what they are worth his projections look good for Evans, bad for Derozan.
DeRozan ?! What the…whats going on here. I’m am getting extremely nervous about the next week +
Love for the #2? Do it.
Al for Amare? Don’t do it. Especially if they have to throw in the #6 too. I think Steve Kerr is just trying to take advantage of the reports that Kahn “wants to make a big splash.”
If they do get the #2 to get Thabeet, I hope they go for Holliday at #6 (if still available). Otherwise get DeRozan, then pick up Collison or Calathes (even if they keep him in Europe for a year or two) with one of the later picks.
I hope they trade for another pick in the top 10 and take Thabeet and Derozan just so I can see how Swan reacts.
Ben - They can’t do Love for the #2…Love can’t be traded to Memphis until June 28th. 3 days after the draft.
jballer_13 - You’re cruel !
Swan - I would probably have to see it in person to truly enjoy it since I would be dying inside as well. I’m slowly accepting the fact that Thabeet will probably fall to #6 and we will take him.
Let’s draft Curry or Flynn sixth, and then trade 18, 28, and Miller or Foye for Josh Smith. I think they’d find their long-term answer at point guard, and also pick up the big, athletic defender on the wing that they need. (Also wouldn’t mind watching Smith’s dunks every night in the Target Center.)
Would give us:
Curry/Telfair
Brewer/Foye or Miller
Smith/Gomes
Love/Rhino
Al/Free Agent Center
Swan — Actually, the Wolves could do the Love deal on draft night because the one year exception does not apply to draft picks who were never signed by teams that picked them. (That, of course, would be dependent on none of the filler in the deal being players who were involved in the original deal)
But whatever happens, my expectations are SO up for this draft.
Khan seems like he really wants to mix things up. I’m convinced we’re going to come out of this draft with a star perimeter player and one other major piece (some athletic defensive-minded veteran, hopefully) that will make the Wolves so much better and more fun to watch.
I’m just afraid we’re going to draft Thabeet.
Amare is overrated anyway. We saw how bad he does in a halfcourt set this year. And although Al is pretty ineffective on defense, he at least tries. Amare doens’t even try to defend (which is too bad, because he has the tools to be extremely good at it if he cared)
Based on what Kahn talked about at the breakfast meeting, he’s not interested in adding a player unless he feels it will make the team significantly better long term. That’s why I figured an actual trade like this was complete speculation. Trading Al for Amare would, at least in my mind, actually make us significantly worse long term.
With all the media surrounding the team the last three days I can’t wait for next Thursday. With the Big Al & KLove trade rumors and McHale getting fired, I can’t remember the last time ESPN had this many articles on the Wolves. Kahn is definitely creating buzz at the right time.
I think Thabeet is going to be a lot better than people expect. If we do draft him….and I think there’s a pretty good possibility of that happening…give him a chance at least. I mean you guys have already written him off as a failure when he hasn’t ever played a single NBA game.
I’m going to give him a chance. I’m a huge sucker when it comes to being a Wolves fan. I’m always trying to find the good in the bad acquisitions the team makes.
But as of now, when we can draft an exciting, skilled point guard who’s ready to contribute now, I’d be disappointed with having to watch Thabeet bumble around the court and block a shot occasionally.
Sean - I hate you a little right now for bringing that to my attention !
Well, if the plan is to essentially deal Love for Thabeet. So we can theoretically get Thabeet AND a skilled point guard (Jrue Holiday would be fantastic) out of this draft.
I don’t like that plan.
I guess I don’t hate the thought of Thabeet here, but like Sam said, I think there are other players who would be more valuable with that pick. If Thabeet falls past us he could be like Brooke Lopez and slide out of the top ten, possibly the lottery.
I realize that his length is a great asset and that in time he could be a rock in the middle. Also, from Kahn’s statements I’m pretty sure we’re going to go after him if he starts to slide. I’m just picturing us passing on guys like Evans/Flynn/Holiday and taking Thabeet then two years later seeing Thabeet on all of their posters getting dunked on.
I love that plan
Thabeet won’t fall out of the lottery, not in this draft. The lowest he goes is #9 to the Raptors, I guarantee that.
You think the Raptors will take him? Even with Bargnani and them trying to re-sign Bosh? I would be surprised if they take him unless they are trying to trade him. I just see them needing a DeRozan/Henderson type wing. I don’t see the Warriors or Knicks taking him b/c of their style of play and also the Bucks have Bogut and other needs. The Nets have Lopez. The Bobcats would be the team I would say absolutely HAS to take him if he falls that far.
If Thabeet makes it past us, somebody will trade up to get him.
This stuff just keeps getting more and more entertaining. This is honestly more exciting than the regular season.
As much of a solid utility man Ryan Gomes is I still think an athletic starting quality 3 is a need for us as well. Josh Smith’s $6 million trade kicker is pretty scary, but Marvin Williams is solid too. Gerald Wallace may not be so bad either.
Can’t see Thabeet dropping below No. 3. Definitely can’t see him falling to 6. Just too unique of a player.
Grrrr…I was just accidently “logged in” as Jerry and tried to post that I was the best poster on the blog. Attempt failed 
Good…let Thabeet get swooped up by someone else.
Jerry - Say the Wolves somehow, by miracle, acquire pick 2 and take Thabeet over Rubio. Would that be a disaster? I certainly think so.
I’m certain the Raptors will take him if he’s there. First, the chances of Bosh resigning are looking pretty slim considering the disaster of a season they had…I expect them to actively shop him all season. Also, even if they do resign him, they still need depth very badly. They have no size coming off the bench.
Thabeet will get a very serious look from the Grizzlies, Thunder, Wizards, ourselves, the Warriors, the Knicks and the Raptors. The chance that all 7 of us will pass on him are zero. One of those teams will take him.
Jerry,
I have bought into Kahn already but am also a huge believer in Kevin Love.
With that said, you don’t think Kahn is making moves just for the sake of making moves, do you?
Excited for the draft but would be upset if a fellow UCLA alum ships out another UCLA alum.
In my breakfast with Kahn, he said he is absolutely not going to make moves just to generate buzz. But he also said that he doesn’t consider a Love/Jefferson frontcourt as viable for a championship considering the extreme length and athleticism that the Lakers and Blazers field in their frontcourts. If we do keep Love, I bet Kahn envisions him as a sixth man with a guy like Thabeet starting to match guys like Oden and Bynum.
jballer, the poster will be of Jefferson getting dunked on with Thabeet out of focus but visible as he looks on from the bench.
I think Thabeet would hold his own against Bynum but I don’t know how well he matches against a versatile big like Odom or Rashard Lewis. Is he athletic enough to cover the three and still be a viable weak side defender?
Also, like Jerry said, Kahn might decide Love will command too much for what he does. He and Jefferson are very very similar players. If you look at the Lakers…they pay Odom almost $12 million. That’s a LOT to pay a guy to come off the bench and average 11-8.
Well thats because Bynum is vastly overrated and incosistent. Oden is a foul machine and Love / Al are foul drawing machines…does Kahn really believe that Oden is something we’ll have to worry about ?
Amare is terrible in a half-court offense, hence Terry Porter getting canned. Big Al is a stud, I think Foye is good and shouldn’t be traded. He really started to come on last year. After that trade everybody, Miller and the 28th to the Knicks for 11.
jballer - no, absolutely not. And either is Jefferson. But neither is Love.
Shard absolutely killed the Cavs as a shooting 4, so you obviously have to be able to match that somehow. But we have an advantage the Cavs don’t in that regard, in that Al can annihilate guys like Odom and Shard in the post. Verajao isn’t going to take anyone in the low block.
Still ideally I think we need to get a guy like the Birdman to come off the bench for us. With the current roster, probably the best bet is Gomes.
I don’t see why they can’t find a fill in the blank guy every year or so to play the “center” spot if Kahn is insisting that Al / Love can’t play together.
I was at two Portland/Wolves games last year. Oden kicked Al’s ass. So did Bynum. So yes, we have to worry about that.
And the Knicks pick 8th Jared.
Foye is very expendible.
Bryan, All you do is hammer the need for a big post presence. Have you ever paid attention to the Wolves backcourt? They are worked by every team they play. Has that ever registered? How do you stand on the backcourt needs of this team?
For reference of Oden’s asskicking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqez4IXAhjg
Look at that play. Oden backed Jefferson in so strongly Al literally fell down.
The backcourt will be handled. The trade, in theory, doesn’t ask us to give up the #6 pick, so we’re going to get a guy like Harden, Evans, Holiday or Curry regardless of what happens with Thabeet. There’s no big need to worry about that IMO because I have confidence Kahn has that aspect under control.
Wally
Josh Smith’t trade kicker is actually $7.2 million. I don’t think he’s going anywhere.
If we got two picks in the top 10 we should draft two wings / points.
Whoever asked if Thabeet can guard 3’s can’t be serious. I don’t know if Thabeet can guard 4’s let alone 3’s. I’m not sure people really understand the type of player Thabeet is. He really is almost a clone of Dikembe Mutombo when it comes to style of play. He isn’t overly mobile, he is just really big and really long. Like I said earlier, right now he is Mark Eaton who played for the Jazz about 20 years ago.
The Hawks are reportedly really trying to move him. I think they’ve decided he and Mike Woodsen just won’t ever get along, and for some reason, the Atlanta Spirit are hellbent on keeping Woodson.
Kahn seems to be looking long term and big picture right now. If that is the case he has to realize that next years draft is full of talented big men. I know you can’t play for draft picks but it would be much easier and safer in my opinion to draft a backcourt player with the #6 this year and wait until next year to get a Center.
Jama - I had a feeling someone would read that and not be able to figure out what I meant. I said cover a player like Odom or Lewis who can shoot the three. Never mentioned guarding a wing.
Um….next year’s draft doesn’t really have many big men in it…basically just Cole Aldrich in the lottery, and if Kahn doesn’t think Jefferson and Love will work, I doubt he’ll think Jefferson and Aldrich will work either.
At the breakfast meeting, he used the word “earthbound” to describe Al, Love and Pekovic. So my assumption is he wants an athlete, and the only guy in next year’s draft that really strikes me as that type of player is Jerome Jordan.
Greg Monroe from Georgetown is a pretty agile big guy who should be in next year’s draft but his defense is below average at this point. He has lottery potential b/c he can shoot. When I watched him he reminded me of Michael Beasley, if Beasley a legit 6′10″.
Anybody see John Hollinger’s Draft Rater ratings that had Ty Lawson first and Blake Griffin second?
That kind of stuff is just about the biggest nonsense I’ve ever seen. Give me an experienced scout with two wise eyes anytime over a bunch of crunched numbers.
Well, I mean big men that have really proven something. Potentially there’s a number of them right now that COULD be big time lottery picks….Monroe certainly, Derrick Favors, Ed Davis…but they’re all unproven right now. I’d like to see them really do something in college before I consider them as potential solutions.
Hollinger is a whore for his own PER system. I stopped taking him seriously a long long time ago.
Beasley is 6′8.
Bryan, You have identified why Jefferson is a weak defender. Defense in the paint is about establishing and holding position, and that really has nothing to do with height or length. Do you honestly think that Thabeet will hold his positoin better than Jefferson did with an NBA body backing him in? Not likely. Granted he would have gone for the shot block that Love did not contest in that last dunk on the sequence. He probably would only have fouled, but hey, that’s something.
Did you watch that video of Oden and Jefferson? Watch that and then tell me how well Al holds his position defensively.
And in Thabeet’s case, even if you pack him all the way under the hoop, you still have to shoot over his 7′3″ frame. That’s a lot harder than getting a shot off over Al at 6′10″.
Pffffttt…show me a clip of Al v. 100% of players single covering him…
Bryan
When looking at next years prospect on DX’s 2010 mock draft. 10 of the top 20 picks they are forcasting can play either PF or Center. There is actually a nice mix of think bodies like Jefferson and athletic shot blockers.
If you are looking for depth they have 15 players going in the 1st round that are legitimate PF or Centers. Yes many of these guys haven’t proved anything but neither has Thabeet in my opinion.
Players don’t block shots with their heads. Thabeet’s standing reach is only 3 inches longer than Jefferson’s.
Bryan, that’s exactly my point, Jefferson is a poor defender because he doesn’t work to defend his position.
And, you don’t need to shoot over Thabeet if you just put him on his butt like Oden did to Jefferson or like those 6′7″ terrors from Michigan State did to Thabeet.
Well, let’s come at it a different way then. If we DON’T get Thabeet, who do we find who can start at center, who’s young, athletic, and can defend the paint at a high level?
Bryan - I’d offer a bunch of stuff to Phoenix to get Robin Lopez.
Hmm…draft Curry to get Lee from NY ? That doesn’t sound too good.
Gortat…too expensive…
Ummmm…Rasho ? I’d take him back I guess….
Since that guy is not in the draft this year, I suggest you trade for him. Since you don’t like Jefferson’s defensive skills, I suggest you swap Jefferson for a guy who fits what you want from a center. If Jefferson is widely regarded as an all-star caliber player you should get a very good plyer in return who won’t flop over whenn being backed down.
Right now, however, I don’t think that’s a 2009-10 worry given the derth of starter-quality players on the roster.
Swan,
Please don’t mention Rasho ever again. I just ate, and threw up into my mouth.
It was Hollinger and his number crunching that said both Foye and Brewer would not live up to where they were picked. I’ve come to appreciate his thinking far more than our local club’s.
Robin Lopez I like. I can get behind that. I’m really interested in trying to get Jerome Jordan next year too.
Lee isn’t good though. He’s Love without the offense. Short, not a good defender.
What I look at is can the guy fit into our lineup well, and can be be the starting center on a championship team. That really narrows the field. Someone kept bringing up Adanal Foyle. Ok, he’s decent…but he’s old, and would he start for the Lakers? Would he start for the Spurs, or Cavs or Celtics or Magic?
I like Thabeet because I think he’s going to be a dynamic defender that this league only sees maybe once a decade. But the reason I push for him so much isn’t because I like him so much as he’s very obtainable. It’s the combination of the two.
And for the record, if it was up to me, I’d deal Love for that big time center and just move Al back to the 4. He’s much more efficient there offensively and it helps hide his defensive weaknesses.
Bryan - Do you think Jefferson/Thabeet could be a championship caliber frontcourt? Do you think they would be able to mesh on the offensive side of things?
Bryan,
You’re right about Lee’s defense, but wrong about his offense. He’s a better offensive player than Love… for now. It may not stay that way.
jballer,
Al needs a big who plays d and who’s a jump shooter on offense. I think Thabeet will be that kind of player.
From watching the past season, it seemed like our problems were on the perimeter rather than in the paint until Al went down.
You don’t just go shopping for an elite post either. Get one when they are available, but they are tough to come by. Same as great PG’s, wings, etc.
I think they would be able to do fine on D, but I guess I’m not sure about Thabeet’s jumpshot b/c I agree that Al needs someone who can give him space and spread the floor. Ideally I would love a big guy next to Al who could run the pick and roll effectively.
jballer - Love is the pick n roll big !
Bryan - There are only 3 big time centers in the league !
Bryan
Thabeet wouldn’t start for any of those teams you mentioned either so what’s you point?
I’m going to stick with what I watched this season and say that Thabeet is not athletic. I think people are picturing a taller Marcus Camby or something, that is not Thabeet. He isn’t particularly agile either. In watching him he looks only slightly more athletic than Yao which isn’t saying much.
I agree with Neumms in that Hollinger’s numbers generally tell you who not to pick more than they tell you who to pick.
Amare is one of my favorite players, I would have done that deal if Amare would re-sign before the trade and agree to play here and add the 18th pick not the 6th picka and try to get Lopez.
Amare and R. Lopez
for
Al and the 18th overall pick
I think Jefferson, Thabeet and a quality backup like a Paul Millsap, Chris Andersen or Andray Blatche is a championship frontcourt. Obviously we still would have a lot of holes to plug in the backcourt and on the wings, but in terms of a three or four big man rotation, absolutely, I think Thabeet is a legitimate piece there.
I bet in a couple years, Thabeet would be starting for the Lakers, Cavs, or Celtics. I guarantee he’d start for the Spurs. And the only reason he wouldn’t start for the Magic is because of Dwight Howard.
If Thabeet falls to 6, we should trade up to get Rubio, and in the process find a way to pick up Josh Smith. Are defense would be tremendous, because Rubio can give you 2+ steals every game, and his offense is like a combination of Manu Ginobli and Pete Maravich. Thabeet can give you 3+ blocks with his game being very similar to that of a young Dikembe Mutombo. And everybody knows how versatile Josh Smith’s game is (17 ppg, 8 rpg, 3 bpg, 1.5 spg)!
Gasol is 28 and Bynum is like 23 or something…Thabeet wouldn’t be starting for a long long long time there.
Josh Smith is overrated and his contract blooooooooows !
Well, I mean that he’ll be at the quality to be starting if those teams didn’t already have big money invested in starters.
But hey, how ironic is it that the main contenders for a championship all have 7 foot, rangy, defensive minded centers? Oh wait, that’s not ironic at all, that’s they way contenders are built…
So Thabeet is now going to better than Tim Duncan, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum. So he is going to be the 2nd best center in the NBA behind Dwight Howard?
If that’s the case you draft him but I don’t think many people will agree with that outlook.
Read my previous comment.
Oh, and Tim Duncan is like Al. Ideally a power forward. You better believe the Spurs would rather start Thabeet than Oberto, Bonner or Kurt Thomas.
Duncan is bigger than all those guys and has been the Spurs Center for at least the last 5 years no matter what they say.
There is no way Duncan could guard the more athletic 4’s anymore. He doesn’t have the foot speed.
I’d argue that the one thing all the championship teams have had is a player that can take over in crunch time with the ball in his hands. The Wolves do not have that and won’t if they don’t draft a wing at #6.
Absolutely we don’t. But ideally that’s what the #6 pick is for. Like I said, if we have both the #2 and #6 pick, we can take Thabeet AND a big time wing player.
And I’d bet my left arm that if the Spurs could find a real center, they’d move Duncan back to the 4. They play him in the middle now because Thomas, Bonner, Oberto and Gooden are all even less suited for the 5 than TImmah is.
Jama - Thats one of the characteristics of a champ-contender…the other is solid front court D.
Bryan - I don’t agree with defensive minded centers for all those people…some yes…but Gasol is an offensive mided center who can play D. Yah I’m arguing semantics, but he wasn’t really known for good / great D until this year.
Bryan, are you sure Thabeet will be that good? As opposed to more like Dalembert or Kandi?
Maybe I am gun-shy after having Kandi around, and having Longley and Spencer as past top 10 picks for the Wolves. But is seems like there are questions out there on Thabeet. As well as a glaring hole at PG in a draft strong in PG’s.
If we get the #2 & 6 its gotta be Rubio and a slasher !
Bynum is the Lakers’ starting center…
And I mean, if we could get a guy like Pau Gasol, I’d be all for it. No, he’s not a defender at the level of D12, but he’s well above average and extremely skilled.
Again, I’m not saying it HAS to be Thabeet or HAS to be a guy who could be the best post defender in the league. I just push for Thabeet because it’d be easy for us to get him. Pau Gasol? Would love him here, but that just isn’t going to happen.
Matt — And the point guards in this draft don’t have questions?
Every player in this draft — Griffin possibly excepted — has major question marks.
I wouldn’t trade up to get Thabeet, but I also wouldn’t hesitate to take him at #6 if he’s there.
Thabeet is another George Murisan. A stiff, a boy amongst men, a tool who was manhandled by a Craig Smith clone.
Thabeet won’t be Kandi. MK’s problem was he just didn’t care. He had talent, he just didn’t care enough to develop any of it.
I think Hasheem being Dalembert is a realistic possibility, but if you think about that….Dal would do really well here. He’d compliment Al and cover our defensive weaknesses very solidly.
For reference on Thabeet though, think about this: he has the same blocks per game average in college as Mutombo and Alanzo Mourning did. That’s something.
Tom D — How did Thabeet do in the second game against Blair?
And more than that, how many teams are going to start a 6′7″ guy at center? Not any team that’s competitive, that’s for sure.
Oh, wait, WE start a 6′7″ guy at center. How competitive are we again…?
Sean, how did he do the first time? Or do you need me to show the youtube clips?
I think we all need to realize that we’ve been under McHale’s clueless regime so long, that we don’t what it would be like to have a real big man.
Because McHale spend 15 years trying to prove that you don’t need to be athletic up front to succeed. Why? Because he’s not athletic.
Just pause and think about ever big man every to put a Wolves uniform on. They all have been either too unathletic, too short, too slow, too busy watching porn in a parking lot, too high, too tasered, or… well, you get the idea.
Now I don’t know if Thabeet’s the answer, but I would bet he’d be the best defensive big in Wolves history.
McHale should know better too. He had his unathletic ass bailed out all the time on defense by Robert Parish.
Re: Kahn looking to make a splash. It seems to me from interviews and the little I’ve heard that Kahn is very careful not to move too quickly or alienate people who are/were here before him. Obviously, I’m not on the beat like you are Jerry; just my two cents. I can’t possibly see him trading Al, especially given his extremely reasonable contract.
The Wolves suck! LOL worst franchise in modern sports history.
Terrence Williams at 18 Kahn. Get it done. This guy is a stud, killer D, gets to the basket, will be the steal of the draft.
I would love to get Williams at 18. I don’t think he’ll fall that far though….
Tom D — My point is, if you’re going to say that one game by Thabeet is evidence not to pick him, why can’t I point to one game by Thabeet as evidence to pick him?
With any player in this draft, you can find instances where they had a really bad game. You have to look at the totality of their record.
Sure, Thabeet isn’t perfect. But, I feel confident he’s going to be a contributing player in this league for the next decade. There’s only three other players in this draft who I have equal or greater confidence in. So, yeah, if he’s there at #6, I’m looking really hard at him.
Yeah I agree Bryan, even though Ford has us take him at 18 in the latest mock I dont see him slipping that far. The guy is a beast, he is working out at PG with Gary Payton now, and is a defensive stopper and is amazingly athletic.
Point taken Sean, I am more concerned about him getting injured because of his physique. I like Deandre Jordan last year as a defensive stopper, but McHale went with the mad Russian and traded the other pick to Miami.
Personally, I think the lowest Williams goes is #14 to the Suns. With his body and skillset and the fact that Grant Hill is probably retiring, he’s a perfect fit for that team.
Bryan, I assume you’re kidding, right? By most accounts, McHale was one of the best defensive power forwards in history (I routinely heard _the_ best, until KG and Duncan came along).
I think a lot of what made McHale look good on defense was playing alongside Parish, and being able to rebound so well. Individually I don’t think he was as good as people seem to remember or the awards would suggest.
I definitely disagree he was the best until KG and Duncan. Dennis Rodman played in between them, for one.
Al Jefferson should be untouchable…talk about value, he’s signed long-term at a more than reasonable rate and is one of the top 5 scoring big men in the league. Build around Al.
Jerry…any chance of this type of double move?
Love for Memphis #2 (draft Rubio).
#6 and Foye for OKC #3 (draft Thabeet)
Use #18 to draft Terrence Williams
OKC needs a SG. Westbrook is big enough to guard opposing SGs leaving Foye on PG and OKC can still draft DeRozan, Hill or maybe Harden. And Foye becomes 6th man.
T-Wolves line-up:
PG: Rubio/Telfair
SG: Miller/T. Williams
SF: Brewer/Gomes
PF: Jefferson/Rhino
C: Thabeet
Terrence Williams or Earl Clark would be terrific picks at #18. They both could start at SF and be a big upgrade over Ryan Gomes.
They also need to try to get move Miller, Foye, and our #28th pick to get another top 10 pick and draft 2 guards of Evans, Curry, Holliday and Flynn.
They need to keep both Al Jefferson and Kevin Love and build around those two.
Hopefully Kahn doesn’t get tricked and dig our franchise into a deeper hole than we are in. The trade of Jefferson for Stoudamire straight up would be extremely foolish let alone trading the #6th overall for Stoudamire. They need to build this team from within the draft.
Geez, that would be sick. And then ideally you could move Miller and/or Brian Cardinal for a big time shooting guard (Andre Iguodala? Michael Redd? Joe Johnson?)
How crazy would it be if we came into preseason fielding a lineup of Al, Thabeet, Rubio, Brewer and Joe Johnson?
Kahn was right to laugh off that trade.
I was actually going to add the following to my above dream scenario:
Miller plus #18 & 28 for #5 from Washington and Etan Thomas’ contract and then draft Harden, but I don’t think those assets are enough to get #5 pick.
Completely agree Bryan…use Miller/Cardinal expiring contracts for a big time SG. Brewer/Gomes are capable enough at SF if we’re loaded elsewhere. And Brewer/Gomes are good guys/teammates.
The reason we need to trade up to get rubio is so we can get rid one of our other point guards. Who would you guys rather gather get rid of, Bassy or Ollie? (I know it sounds like the names of two puppies or something).
jefferson for amare -that would be a
f*cking mistake.
Ollie’s technically already not part of the team. Unrestricted free agent, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he retires and gets into coaching now.
If we get Rubio, I’d like to keep Telfair as his backup, and Bobby Brown as an understudy/insurance policy. That’d give us a solid solid three man rotation there similar to Fisher/Farmar/Shannon Brown, with the postential that Rubio becomes a breakout all star.
“That kind of stuff is just about the biggest nonsense I’ve ever seen. Give me an experienced scout with two wise eyes anytime over a bunch of crunched numbers.”
Jerry, what about confirmation bias? I don’t see why you’d favor anecdotal observation over a player above the utilization of statistical models that can be refined over time.
Some of Hollinger’s stuff is a little batty, but I don’t think that undermines the concept of advanced statistical analysis and its utility in player evaluation.
Ya, but Hollinger takes it way too far. He doesn’t use anything BUT statistics, which is why he (and some fans on this board) come up with absolutely absurd statements about some players.
For example, according to Hollinger’s PER system, the #1 overall pick in the draft should be Ty Lawson. That’s complete garbage right there.
I have zero problem with using nothing but statistics if the model has been proven sound. The problem is that Hollinger’s models are flawed.
That is a problem with Hollinger’s methodology not with statistical analysis in general.
So Gendo, you favor taking Ty Lawson with the #1 overall pick?
That isn’t at all what I said. Jerry rejected the idea of statistical analysis in general in favor of pure scouting. I disagree with that as I also disagree with Hollinger’s flawed methodology.
Statistics is a part of the scouting. But what happens sometimes is an executive will just sit behind a desk and look at the numbers and make a decision about a player without ever having seen him play.
Consider, for example, Shane Battier. A stat geek who hasn’t seen Shane play is going to see 7ppg on 41% shooting, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, and assume Battier is a scrub. Is Battier really a worthless player? Absolutely not. He is a glue guy. He makes smart plays. He plays arguably the best man-to-man perimeter defense in the league. But how would you know any of that is you don’t watch him play.
I don’t think Jerry was saying disregard the stats and just make an arbitrary decision. He’s saying take the stats, but then seriously weigh in the things that don’t come up on a stat sheet as well. Don’t throw all in on one aspect of the game…use common sense.
i wouldn’t trade him for stoudemire straight up. though i like the idea of keeping love and jefferson, we need size to compete against the lakers. the wolves should get rid of miller.
I’m just saying relying purely on statistical analysis takes the human element out of it, and if you have to choose one over the other (and you don’t), I’ll take a great scout over a formula every time. There’s too many human factors that enter into it that a computer can’t decipher.
Excellent post Jerry. A lot of good information and speculation to sort through. I am very intrigued with this draft, and the position the Wolves are in to make a splash. At first I was very intrigued with the possibility of moving up to select Ricky Rubio, but to get a player like Thabeet, who would be a player at an extremely premium position. I hope the Wolves avoid Jennings…he seems like he’d be a cancer on the team. He can’t even do a year of college to get to the pros (an attitude thing) then calling out Rubio, which is a jerk move, and one that should drop his stock. If he calls out one player, who knows who he will call out next if he’s on a bad team?
Hehe, that’s why games like 2K9 and Live are so flawed.
I remember back in the Jordan era…even with the fake Jordan player, the Bulls were always rated in the middle of the league and the Gary Payton Sonics were always the best. Because on paper, that Sonics team was stacked….Payton, Schremph, Shawn Kemp or Vin Baker, Hersey Hawkins, Dale Ellis…
But what a computer can’t calculate is how Kemp being a pothead and Jordan being the most competitive human being on the planet changes the game.
I have picked on Al Jefferson a lot over the last few months, but there is no way in hell I would trade Al Jefferson for Amare and one of our 2nd round picks let alone the 6th pick overall.
Jefferson, Miller, and the 6th pick for Amare, Nash, and the 12th pick and I’m listening, lol.
It’s a numbers game, and Amare’s numbers are not that much better than Al’s. So that’s just ridiculous.
Forget all of this silly talk go get Gorat the 7 footer from Orlando he is a free Agent, no trade required.
Nobody was advocating Adonal Foyle as a starting center… somebody else brought him up and I got on board right away… as a 10-MINUTE PER GAME PLAYER.
I like Thabeet, but I want perimeter help like crazy.
Is Evans a good defender? If so, I would love it if the Wolves got two picks in the top ten and went with two guards - preferably J Flynn (I didn’t know much about him but liked his interview on draft express and his highlights on espn.com - I can’t imagine he would be a great defender at 5′11, but is super athletic and would offer some flair) and Evans (if he is a good defender). Assuming the wolves would need to part with the 18th and 28th to move up, and probably Foye, they could then take the kid from Kentucky in the 2nd round as the outside shooter (something Evans is not). I know, this wouldn’t address the need for another big, but think how much more athletic we would be?
That would’ve qualified as the worst trade in Wolves history…and there is a lot from which to choose. I think we all know McHale would’ve been still running this team with that stupid trade.
Gorat is a nice reserve player but I don’t think he’s starting caliber by any stretch of the imagination.
Great so Khan is intent on getting rid of the few pieces we do have so he can make his mark.
Whichever state the T-Wolves play in next I hope they are better managed then they have been so far and as it seems are currently.
According to Ford’s latest “draft buzz”, it looks like Terrance Williams is a bit eccentric. He apparently wore Barney and Sponge Bob socks during games in high school and carried a Barbie backpack around school.
I like him a lot more now.
The few pieces we have don’t add up to anything. I’m no fan of Kahn but he’s absolutely right that Love and Jefferson don’t fit together and they should be concentrating on turning over this roster.
Al for Amare wouldn’t have been the worst trade ever for us as some one said above. We traded Roy who many feel will be a top 10 player next year if he wasn’t already this past year for Foye who wouldn’t be starting for more than half of the NBA teams.
And yeah, I think we need to trade Love or Jefferson, for guard help or a top 3 pick in this draft
Anybody ever hear of this site? Says Mark Jackson as the next coach is pretty much a done deal. Not sure if it is legit.
i dont understand why no one is talking about tyson chandler from n.o. i mean o.k. were about to get him for joe smith and wilcox, couldnt we give up like cardinall and the 18th for him? young athletic proven get him and go get rubio it seems possible.
I can see the Mark Jackson connection happening. Sign him up. I would rather have him than Sam or Avery. I would like to go with somebody new and fresh, why not? Let’s just go fresh all around.
eff all that its funny how the best player to complement jefferson is prob kg if kahn really wants to make a splash he would get us kg back!!
[…] as Timberwolves boss with two good decisions this week, cutting all ties with Kevin McHale and turning down the Suns’ offer of Amare Stoudemire for Al Jefferson and the No. 6 overall pick. Amusingly, news of the McHale […]
I was in Phoenix this past winter. The papers down there were blasting his effort and lack of defensive play. Don’t get this guy.
That guy from Kentucky would be a steal in the second round, I don’t think there’s anyway he falls that far. Only thing that hurts him is he decided to be in draft late and didn’t hire agent. Meeks it is. But to see more about that go to the video of firing mchale by Kahn and look at my proper comments for details.
BTW I live in arizona now and use to work in Phoenix, Stoudemire has his own club down here.
I have to admit that I’m pumped about this draft!
By all means, if Memphis will bite on Love and the #28 pick for the #2 pick, thank your lucky stars and take Rubio!
Or, if Okla would go for Foye and the #18 pick for their #3, also take Rubio, though I worry that Memphis would pick him up with their #2.
If either of these pan out, take Mullins with the #6 pick and try to pickup Camby or Chandler to backup and mentor him. McHale could be quite helpful in this regard if he’s not too po’ed at Taylor/Kahn to do it. I like Mullins upside and could see him developing into a Pau Gasol type guy.
I could also see getting Curry with the #6, but he may be gone by then, in which case Evans would work.
Barring trading up which is always unlikely, how about Flynn/Curry/Evans at #6,Mullins/Maynor/Collison at #18,
Calathes/Williams at #28?
Can’t wait to see if Taylor will spend the money, Kahn will pick wisely, and the Timberpups will start to develop into a quicker, more athletic group.
Oh, and I would have no objection to bringing back Dwayne Casey, or bringing in Avery Johnson to coach.
Bryan
You mention Shane Battier as a reason statistical analysis doesn’t work. It’s actually the exact opposite. The Rockets are far and away the franchise that uses the most stat analysis and are on the cutting edge in coming up with new stats.
The reason the Rockets traded for him was because of his statistical value on defense. They looked at the drop in FG% of the players he guarded along with his +/- on various stats while on the floor.
There was a great article written on Battier in the New York Times that shows part of the analytical thinking on why he makes his team successful.
They could trade everyone but Big Al for all I care.
I think moving Love/Jefferson would be a mistake. Think back to the first month of this year, Big Al/K. Love had a 13-10 record before BiG Al went down.
We need better Pg/Sg/Sf not dumping are best combo.
I think trading Love would be good, trading Al would be bad. I don’t agree with Kahn’s assessment of Jefferson. I believe that we can build around him. He has the most impressive low post offensive game I’m seen in a long time. His defense will improve over time.
Draft Thabeet and get a top-notch point guard. If it means losing Love and some picks then so be it.
Terrible deal. I would not trade Mad Dog for Stoudemire.
I would try to trade Jefferson and/or Love in packages for Blake Griffin and/or Hasheem Thabeet. I would offer Foye for Philadelphia’s first-round pick, 17 overall. I would offer Brewer for Memphis’ second first-rounder, 27 overall.
What about Jefferson and Brewer for Memphis’ first first-rounder, 2 overall? Healthy, Jefferson is an All-Star.
Al for Amare would be a horrible, horrible deal. Amare plays less defense than Big Al and is half the rebounder. Al is younger, cheaper, and still has upside. We’ve pretty much seen what Amare can do. He wouldn’t want to play here anyway. We need to draft Thabeet so Al can play the 4 and draft Lawson to play PG. He’s big, strong, and fast. He’s proven he can win and played in a system under Roy Williams that translates well to the pros. Even if he never scores, Thabeet will lock down the paint and that’s what we need more than anything.
Also, DeRozan and Holiday aren’t true point guards. They would take some work and there’s no guarantee they would learn the position. My PG preference is Rubio, Lawson, Curry, Evans. Since Rubio and Curry probably won’t be available with our second pick, I like Lawson and Evans.
Kahn is an idiot. How in the world do you expect any of these players to want to play for him when he publicly states that he hates them all. When Ghengis Kahn is all done with his trades, a few guys will be still be here, and they will be completely useless. Those that are lucky enough to be traded from here will seriously help other teams to get better. Announcing a “fire sale” is a stupid thing to do. I can only imagine how the players are feeling right now.
lsmdesign - I don’t recall Kahn announcing a “fire sale”.
I do not understand how some here would trade Al (a lagit all star and one of the best post scorers in the league) for an unproven rookie that has not played a minute of NBA basketball!
I like Kevin Love and Foye but Al and Love are an undersized front line, and we need a true point guard- not another combo that is unable to involve the rest of the players on the team.
Find a way to acquire Thabeet and a true PG. Thabeet allows Jefferson to play the 4 and even if he does not score he will give us something we have never had- a shot blocking C that will cause slashers to think twice before entering the lane (or have we all forgoten the 50 point Parker game?). There are plenty of good PG in this draft that we can wait till 18 and still get a quality player there.
one more thing…
What’s the deal with Pekovich (sp?) from last year’s draft will he ever strap on a Twolves uniform?
I believe Pekovich will be available next year. I could be wrong.
