Musings
Posted on June 20th, 2009 – 12:34 PMBy Jerry Zgoda
With draft day just five days away, here’s some tidbits, thoughts and other stuff:
* Saw that Jordan Hill plans to work out for Memphis, which indicates the Grizzlies continue to think about moving down.
If the Wolves somehow can get that second pick to add to their own sixth, the players I’d think they’re targeting: Hasheem Thabeet (not Ricky Rubio) and Steph Curry.
That’d give you the shot-blocking presence Kahn apparently feels they need next to Big Al and the best shooter in the draft who also presumably can play point guard. Those seem to be the two greatest needs, don’t they?
Interesting, but if the Wolves get their hands on Thabeet…I can assure you McHale would have had little interest in investing so much to get him because he’s convinced Al and Kevin Love can play together most nights.
* The Wolves basketball staff had a going-away party for Mac Friday night — Kahn wasn’t invited, I don’t think.
Looks like Mac will end up with TNT, probably paired often with Chuck Barkley in the Atlanta studio and perhaps even re-united on some broadcasts with Kevin Harlan, his partner on those wild Wolves broadcasts from long ago.
The boys would have to tone it down for network TV, but it’d still be fun to see, and hear.
Mac also could end up a special-guest instructor invited to some teams’ training camps next fall.
Maybe you’ll see him in Portland tutoring Greg Oden come October.
*Heard owner Glen Taylor met with Kahn Friday and I bet encouraged him to communicate more with his players, who are angered that McHale won’t be back.
Kahn has talked several times with Al Jefferson but otherwise hasn’t started to establish a relationship with any other players, as far as I can tell.
* There’s another trade rumor floating out there seemingly even more far-fetched than the Al and No. 6 to Phoenix for Amare: This one says the Wolves send Mike Miller, Randy Foye and Ryan Gomes to Boston for Ray Allen.
Since Kahn lamented Friday how nobody in the media business calls anymore for confirmation and denial of such rumors, I texted Kahn about this one and asked if there was possibly any truth to it.
He sent back a one word answer:
“No.”
Good.
* Swedish forward Jonas Jerebko is scheduled for a workout Sunday. He’d be a favorite for that 28th pick if the Wolves keep him because the long, tough, athletic forward could stay in Europe for a season or two and not sign immediately with the Wolves.
*DeMar DeRozan is expected for a workout Monday morning. That might be the last Target Center workout, but as of yesterday, the Wolves were trying to get at least an audience with such players as Thabeet, Rubio and James Harden. They’d probably have to go to those players, though.
* Looks like I’ll try to learn how to do one of these on-line chats and try to line one up for Tuesday afternoon, perhaps around the lunch hour.
127 Responses to "Musings"
Musings:
– why make a lot of effort when you are swamped getting ready for the draft and trades to cozy up to players who may be gone in a week? There will be plenty of time in July and August to roast marshmallows and hot dogs on a stick. Glen should shut up and let the guy do his job. If Glen wants to have a touchy feely guy he should have a) kept McHale or b) exhumed Mister Rogers.
– Let’s see. Kahn says there are 7 top players. Kahn wants to make a splash. Is it out of the question that he makes moves to get 2, 5 and his 6 to get three of them? If he isn’t enamored with Love, Foye, Miller, etc. he has a lot of ammo to deal with and still have something left for the other 15 months in his timetable. Get those pups, added to guys like Jefferson and Gomes and you might be on your way.
– McHale and Harlan were the most entertaining announcers I’ve heard in my 54 years on this planet. Of course they had to be given what they were covering but the popcorn incident (Oh, the humanity!!!) remains an all timer.
- Yes on Thabeet over Rubio (should that eventuality occur). No on Curry over Evans, who provides more matchup problems for the opposition.
- Chuckles has jumped the shark. Maybe Mac can bring some life back into the Atlanta crew. Mac may be able to get the harness off of Harlan.
- No major comments on Dingus Kahn. sadly just watching the melt down…one of the raps on this guy is his poor communication skills (not entirely uncommon for a former lawyer)
I’m George (Marty) McFly and I’m your density.
Why Thabeet over Rubio? That doesnt make any sense at all. Thabeet got dominated so much at Uconn. And Im not even talking about the games against Dejaun Blair where he got tossed over his shoulder.
Im a Uconn fan and I watched alot of their games and no name Power Forwards would dominate him on a nightly basis. The 6OT game against Syracuse, he was constantly backed down by their Power Forward. Imagine him going against average NBA players who KNOW what their doing and have way more muscle. I think people value his height a little too much.
I’m sure the players will get over their heartbreak soon enough, and it probably doesn’t make sense for Kahn to go out of his way to make overtures until the expected major roster turnover heading into the draft completes.
It’s amazing how much better I feel about the team with McHale gone. I’m still not enamored with Kahn as of yet, but he’s done and said enough to get a neutral view from me at the moment.
That’s a massive step up.
- Okay, I relent. Two of the contentions about Dingus Kahn is his aloofness and his lack of communications.
- Gendo, unless you plan to turn over an entire roster by November, it behooves a novice GM to communicate with everyone on the roster. Dingus has no idea who will be on the roster by November because he lacks control, there are two sides to every trade.
- And, as for prospective free agents, it doesn’t hurt to have a franchise who treats all its players with the respect they deserve. In the League, free agents are swayed by player-to-player word of mouth. Word gets around when players are treated like baggage lacking a destination.
- Kryptonite, I agree that Thabeet is far from ideal. The best prospect isn’t in the draft this year: Cole Aldrich.
- The Wolves need a rim-defending center. a consistent scoring SG and a score contributing PG.
- Rubio has not demonstrated to date that he can contribute as a scorer. Plus, his being unwilling to engage in pre-draft workouts for anybody is a red flag. He got sick before the scheduled workout for Sacramento.
Marty is right.
The idea of McHale on TNT with Barkley and Ernie Johnson has been so obvious, I’m almost not going to be able to stand it if that doesn’t happen.
The guy deserves to have some fun. I remember those old Wolves broadcasts, and they were a gas. McHale, too, didn’t pull any punches at all when it came to the roster we had on the floor. He and Sir Charles could be ideal together.
Saw Jama quote about K. Love’s twitter was in the paper today.
Good one Jama.
Could we drop the Dingus thing, Marty? It’s not clever or funny it’s just dumb.
Marty,
How can you possibly be convinced that what the Wolves’ need at PG is a “score contributing” player?
The clutter of half-talents on Minny’s roster — Ryan Gomes, Craig Smith, etc. — all cry out for a distributor who could tie them together. Heck, Foye’s another name on that list, and he could easily be described as just what you’re talking about: a guy who can take time at the point and score.
The idea of eschewing a classic PG in favor of someone who can put up his own points in those circumstances is strange to me. Toss in the fact that Rubio projects as a solid defender…. I can’t see the downside, and in any case dealing up to #2 in order to take Thabeet is an overinvestment. I don’t hate Hasheem, but that’s too much to give up. If you’re making a move like that, you want it to be for a real, franchise talent.
Rubio! Here’s a new video on Rubio:
Matty, that video makes me hope the Wolves are targeting Rubio all the more. I can’t wait until Thursday.
Gendo, on behalf of Marty, no guarantees. If the Dingus fits….
Hey, how about Ramon Sessions in a trade as your PG?
Gendo, Marty has now accepted your request. He (we) will suspend the Dingus until August 1 in order to allow Mr. Kahn time to cash his chips (the draft and one-month of free agency). Whereupon, if it is deemed necessary after August 1, we will reapply the Dingus. That is all…
Curry>Evans. Curry will get all kinds of open looks for 3 off Al post-ups and can convert.
There are a few things in hoops that will always work. Inside/outside game when you have a post like Al is obvious.
The Wolves should try and get the #5 pick only and keep the 6. Thabeet is overrated…..they should pick Curry,Evans or Harden….pick two of the three players that are on the board.
These players are the safest picks…In my opinion they will not be busts….The Wolves cant afford to take a chance on risky players.
I’m not sure you can revive a moribund franchise without taking a few risks.
The more I see of Harden the more I like him, but I do not think he’ll be available at 6.
I am still not sold on Evens as a point. Any indications Meynor might slip to 18?
Can someone please explain the point of drafting European players that never play a minute of NBA B-ball?
I want Evans over anyone except maybe Griffin and if we could get a PG like Holliday, Flynn or Maynor in addition to Evans I would be very happy. If that takes moving a combination of some of these gusy (Love, Miller, Foye, 28th pick) so be it
Billy,
Did you see Rubio play against team USA? That’s one reason why. Another reason why is that one Dewayne Wade says that Rubio will be special. A third reason is that Euros who are drafted in the high lottery actually have a higher percentage of panning out than collegians drafted in the high lottery.
That’s just three. . .
A question for you Billy:
Who can we draft that has played a minute of NBA B-ball?
thanks Jerry. the thought of getting to 2 and hearing stern call Thabeet for the wolves over rubio makes me queasy. especially if it takes love. the game is so much more fun to watch and play with pt guards who see the floor and make people better.
looking forward to tuesday’s chat. nervous for thursday. this damn team.
Jerry
Do you know the terms of Kahn’s contract? How does the money compare to what McHale was getting?
What is Rob Moor’s title and role in this new front office?
I did not mean Rubio- I actually like what I have seen of him. I was talking of Pekovich who will probably never play for the wolves.
And here’s a great explanation of why I would take the best point guard on my board and then a wing later:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/johnathan_givony/06/12/draft.pointguards/index.html
That makes more sense, Billy.
The point of drafting Euros is that they typically stay in Europe for a couple of years… it’s like a free farm system. And if they have some upside, it’s a great way to go.
I just am not sold on Rubio yet, but if we do get him, we better get a big sg to defend the other teams best guards because I think other teams would post him a lot with stronger guards
Rubio is 6′4″ and although skinny as a lot of 19 year olds, he has good size and long wingspan. Like Thabeet, Rubio is like 2 time defensive player of the year in his league. Rubio has the potential with added strength to be a very good defensive PG.
So you are developing players that are not going to ever play for you? where is the benefit?
yeah, if he bulks up a lot but for the first few years we would need a bigger off guard to defend the Wades and B. Davis, Billups, D. Will and even D. Rose
I love what Kahn’s doing… Please Kahn haters remember all the pain last season…
KAHN HANDLE YOUR BUSINES
Thank God we have a GM that knows talent/ or value as Kahn would say/ which i would say besides a few are all bench players. Please keep Carney!
So, fella, why didn’t Ricky show up for pre draft workouts? Anyone?
Adam W. — you b wrong!
I don’t necessary hate Mr. Kahn (Dingus embargoed until 8/1/2009), he was simply a poor hire by Taylor.
Kahn was not my first choice either. In fact I was against the hiring. However so far he hasn’t done or said anything I disagree with. I’ll be right there with you criticizing him when he missteps but so far he seems on line.
harden, thabeet, maynor…that will be all.
Harden, Thabeet and Jennings for me.
I agree with you on everything Marty, except for the Rubio take. I got so much trust in that dude panning out. When you play like that against the USA Olympic team and are still in highschool? You gotta be special. Just give the kid time to find his scoring nitch in the league(keeping in mind he’s gonna be like 19 next season)
Krypt are you being serious about Rubio? i’ll give the credit for him for the one game…but remember, that was just one game. w/ the added adrenaline concerning it was for a gold medal. players have one great night all the time. JR Rider had 50 points in a game…how GREAT was he??
I don’t think you can compare a gold medal game w/ an NBA regular season. now, he may pan out, but you can’t say that he’s going to pan out based on one performance. if that was the case how come half these guys that get drafted in the top 10 in the NBA don’t make it?
wow,
You have a point. It take more than one game to make a star. But you have to look at the overall competitive and even emotional make-up. Rider was a basket case. Rubio is pretty darn competitive and I do think he’ll be good.
But I also add that guys who come up short in big games are pretty suspect to me. Stars usually shine in the spotlight.
That’s why I’m less excited about guys Harden and Thabeet and more excited about guys like Evans and Curry. Guys who actually produced when it means the most.
well yeah. but all these guys that are lottery picks look awesome in college, or over-seas and what not. they look good in pre draft work outs. the bottom line is picking a guy who’s 18 that high is because he has a high ceiling and it might not show for a few years and its that potential that will warrant him the high pick.
I personally have nothing against Rubio and think he will one day be a fine pro. which is a good reason the Wolves should take a chance on him. but if the wolves give up a bunch of pics and bodies for the kid then it only sets the wolves farther and farther back in the rebuilding process.
there are reasons i don’t like the idea of drafting rubio, along the same reasons why last year i didn’t want the wolves to draft Mayo and that is because the guys will do their time in Minnesota and not want to stay here. or in Rubio’s case, he’ll get drafted by minnesota and instead of reporting he’ll stay in Europe. if a guy doesn’t want to be in Minny and f/ everything I’ve read about Rubio, his “People” don’t want him to get drafted by Minnesota then don’t draft him. there are plenty of guys in the draft that are solid players that will be better fits in Minnesota than Rubio. and I think, now this is my own opinion that the bust factor for Rubio is higher than any other pick besides Thabeet. that doesn’t mean that the wolves shouldn’t try and get him either. I’m just saying that from what I’ve read and the what I’ve seen.
If I were the wolves I would hold on to Love. The guy can rebound, has great locker room personality and will keep developing an all around game. He would be the #2 pick in the draft this year, easy. I would keep Miller, he is one of the few NBA players who creates for his teammates.
I think Steph Curry is a proven commodity. He played through more defense, that anyone else in the college game. He will get his shot off in the NBA, he can catch and shoot, but he also shoots off the dribble better than anybody. NBA players jump at shot fakes, he will be able to shot fake, 2 dribbles, bang. I see him working nicely taking pressure off of Jefferson and also getting more open looks to Miller and Gomes, who can both knock down..
Part ways with Foye, 6’2” inconsistent scorers are a dime a dozen. Find a true point like Flynn. Stay away from Evans, he struggled at Memphis until Calipari decided to let him dribble the ball all the time. He needs to have the ball in his hands at all times to be successful, I don’t see him making teammates better.
What makes Thabeet so great? There are big guys who flop every year in the draft. This guy does not have the footwork or the athleticism to ever be special. There are 7 footers at the ends of benches on every team in the league that are just as good.
Max, there are big guys that flop every year and there are reasons why big guys go high every year…you can’t coach height and guys like Thabeet have potential. so having that much potential and being that tall makes him a high pick. People always look to the matchup between him and Blair last year and how much Blair dominated that matchup and exposed Thabeet, yet look at where people ar projecting Blair and where people are projecting Thabeet. Why do you think that is? the team that drafts Blair knows what they are getting i.e. effort, toughness, a rebounder, a big body and someone w/ great hands that can finish near the basket. so unless you have a spot for that guy on your team, you don’t take him. the Team that drafts Thabeet isn’t exactly sure what they get until next fall. they know they are getting a tall kid w/ great weakside help ability and shot blocking ability, and a guy that has to develop offensively… but why is thabeet projected as a sure lottery pick and Blair as a late lottery to mid first round? cuz thabeet is 7′3″ and those guys don’t come around often.
Rubio only performed in one game? How about the game against Russia in 2006? Rubio finished with the following line:
51pts, 24 rebounds, 12 assists, and 7 steals. He was the first player to score 51 pts in FIBA tournaments since Luol Deng (in 2001).
Billy - I don’t think anybody believes that Euros will never play in The NBA. Yes, some players don’t ever develop and don’t ever make it. But tons of American players who come to The NBA in year one flame out right away too.
Both American and European players often flame out… the added benefit to mixing in a Euro every once in a while is that you never have to pay for him to develop.
I was always pretty impressed watching DeJuan Blair play at Pitt. But I was also a big fan of Tractor Traylor in his Michigan Wolverines days.
I don’t believe that Blair will ever really distinguish himself in The NBA more than Craig Smith has. Will Blair be able to bully some players at this level? Absolutely. Will he be able to bully everybody like he did at Pitt? No way. Every NBA team will have a tough-guy to match up with Blair if needbe. That wasn’t the case in college ball. He’s a good player and I wish him well, but I don’t think his NBA upside is that great.
it’s pretty clear we’re taking one or two of the 6 people from the point guard workout somewhere in the top 6. it’ll be fun to see which one comes our way. My best guess is Evans and either Holliday or Flynn.
It looks like Kahn’s going to be doing a lot of dealing in the next 5 days, which will be really fun to follow. The only things he can do to lose me this season are to trade Al, Love, or Brewer. Not because they’re invaluable necessarily, but because he’ll be trading some of our better commodities when they’re not at peak value. If that happens, it’ll mean that more frustrating ego-driven moves will be coming, and I don’t wanna make a personal investment in that kind of recklessness.
also, screw Thabeet. one thing McHale was right on is that Al and Love can be our frontcourt against 90% of our opponents. And the other 10% of centers don’t get contained on a nightly basis by anyone anyways.
“there are reasons i don’t like the idea of drafting rubio, along the same reasons why last year i didn’t want the wolves to draft Mayo and that is because the guys will do their time in Minnesota and not want to stay here.”
This will be true of any player they draft if they don’t get the franchise headed in the right direction. You cannot build a top team by only drafting players who want to play in Minnesota regardless of success.
I agree about being hesitent on Rubio because he has the out by staying in Europe.
And No, Brewer is not untouchable. He’s terrible….
Jerry, I liked the line “its (Twolves) players truly a twitter.”
I have a few observations:
1. I was at the point guard audition on Friday and found Evans to be impressive. He has great size, good ball handling and shooting skills, takes the ball to the basket, rebounds well, is highly competitive, and is a leader. My worry is that he will be selected before the 6th pick.
2. Holiday does not have a good handle with the ball and does not show much confidence with his offensive game. You need those characteristics if you are to play point guard. I would take either Flynn or Jennings ahead of him.
3. I will cheer if on Thursday, either Curry or Holiday are picked before the Twolves 6th pick. That will mean the either Harden or Evans will fall to them (unless Thabeet or Rubio fall instead).
4. I have no issues with anything that David Kahn has done thus far. Considering the delusional behavior of the past (remember, last year’s team was supposed to win 40 games) , I appreciate his bluntness. I believe that he is a deliberate person and believe him when he says he has not started the head coach search in earnest. He should be focusing on the draft and I am glad he is. Finally, I support his objective of shooting for more than 50 wins rather than being satisfied with 45. To achieve that level of success, he must make wholesale changes with the current roster.
F.Y.I.
Evidently, Kevin McHale received an “offer” to return as Timberwolves coach after all . . . if you can call it that. One GM disclosed — and another confirmed — newly installed team president David Kahn insisted McHale accept Mike Fratello as his lead assistant on a one-year make-good.
“peter.vecsey@nypost.com”
gendo you make my point easy. and you’re absolutely right but another way, if you will to get things turned around and in the right direction is draft a guy that is completely sold to where he’s going. Which brings me to the ultimate in proving my point. in 1995 the T-Wolves had the 5th overall pick and selected a kid named Kevin Garnett who was completely sold in being in Minnesota and turned the franchise around.
if personally i felt that Rubio was the greatest player in the draft that isn’t blake griffin and wouldn’t be selected #1overall then I would have no problem begging for the wolves to do whatever it took to draft the kid. I don’t.
i don’t take a lot of stock in Rubio’s European production, the number one reason being the level of competition.
it’s great that he had the game of a lifetime in the olympics and someone notably mentioned a 50pt game against Russia in what I’m assuming is the Fiba world cup maybe. thats outstanding.
the nba regular season is 82 games, it spans 7mos and he’s not going to be able to generate the same adrenaline for all 82 of those games as he was able to get amped up for in the gold medal game or the fiba w/c. not at 18.
if he falls to 6, and curry, evans, harden, thabeet are gone…then i guess take a chance on the kid…I do not want the Wolves to give up a pick or a pick and a player to get him though and that is just my feeling. if in 10yrs he’s the greatest player in the league then I was completely wrong and I’ll just have to live w/ myself.
wow:
The ECB and Euro league are filled with former college players who were the top players on their respective college teams but not good enough for the NBA as well as Europeans of various ages. While certainly the league isn’t populated with the Ahtletes of the NBA, it’s far deeper and more competitive than the NCAA. A college star may go against an NBA athlete maybe 5 times a season when his team plays another talented freshman or sophomore; however, Ricky Rubio’s competition was consistently stronger and more advanced than any of the college players in this draft.
Rubio is 19, the equivalent of US player just finishing his freshman year, and has been playing against grown men since he was 16. Rbuio’s european production is more impressive than any of the College guys, factored in with his olympic experience, no one else in the draft played against better players than Ricky Rubio.
“gendo you make my point easy. and you’re absolutely right but another way, if you will to get things turned around and in the right direction is draft a guy that is completely sold to where he’s going.”
The motivations of any given prospect are essentially inscrutable, so this is basically a non-point you can use to push your favored prospects up at the expense of players you don’t favor.
None of us have any way of knowing how committed to the prospect of being a Timberwolf any of these guys are.
Furthermore you forget that a lot had to be done over the years to keep Garnett in Minnesota including a draft day trade for his best bud Stephon Marbury, bringing in Sealy, handing out the richest deal in the history of the NBA and so on.
Any player’s commitment to any franchise is only as long as their contract.
so are you guys telling me that Rubio is worth whatever Kahn would have to give up to get to #2 to get him? or whatever position, 3 maybe. thats is really all I’m saying. you can look and over analyze all the rest of the blurbs I’m putting. but ultimately the only issue I have is what I’ve said 2, 3 or 4 times now. unless he falls to the wolves at 6 I wouldn’t draft him.
Wow: That’s definitely an arguable position. I don’t know if I’d advocate trading up to get him, I just don’t think you should dismiss his performances in Europe because the competition isn’t great. Ultimately I think their 6 great options in this draft for the Wolves, Griffin, Rubio, Thabeet, Evans, Curry, and Harden, and the Wolves can sit tight and get one of them and if they can get 2 of these players, all the better.
“I just don’t think you should dismiss his performances in Europe because the competition isn’t great.”
Agreed. No more than you can dismiss the performances of collegiate players against much more uneven competition.
Wow..Wow, I completely get what your saying on the one game against the US team but I guess Im sort of biased because im around his age but I still think this guy is gonna be a stud.
But having said that, like you said, I wouldn’t trade anything/everything to get him. If it were to be K. Love + #18 then definetely. But anything more than that is overdoing it.
Associated Press
Thabeet cites shoulder in canceling workout
Associated Press, 06.21.09, 02:28 PM EDT
pic
MEMPHIS, Tenn. — Hasheem Thabeet canceled a pre-draft workout with the Grizzlies on Sunday citing a shoulder injury, but he also had plans to talk to other teams.
“Thabeet was a combination of he’s had some shoulder situations and he wanted to talk to some other teams,” Grizzlies general manager Chris Wallace said of the 7-foot-3 center out of Connecticut. “It’s also what goes on this time of the year with guys showing, not showing, that type of thing. The gamesmanship of the draft.”
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Yahoo! Buzz
Memphis officials have already met with Thabeet twice in preparation for Thursday’s NBA draft. Wallace said he expects to meet Thabeet later this week, but probably not for a workout.
The draft’s top-rated big man, Thabeet averaged 13.6 points, 10.8 rebounds and 4.2 blocks (second in the nation) for the Huskies last season, when he was co-Big East player of the year.
A number of projections have him going to the Grizzlies with the No. 2 pick, others have Memphis taking Spanish point guard Ricky Rubio. The Los Angeles Clippers are expected to take Oklahoma forward Blake Griffin at No. 1.
The debate on Thabeet is that he is not an offensive presence, has only adequate rebounding numbers and may not be strong enough to battle in the post. But there also is the potential for continued improvement. The native of Tanzania did not start playing basketball until he was 15.
Related Stories
Sunday’s cancellation does not affect the Grizzlies’ consideration of Thabeet, although Wallace didn’t reveal his draft plans.
“We go on what they do in their careers. That’s the vast majority of your final grade,” Wallace said. “The workout has very little to do with it. You’re just covering yourself with the workout.”
With Thabeet’s cancellation, the Grizzlies watched Jordan Hill, the 6-10 forward-center out of Arizona, and Demar DeRozan, a guard-forward from USC, in individual workouts.
Wizards Insider
More Draft Buzz
The latest rumor has the New York Knicks interested in moving up to No. 5 in order to take one of the many players they reportedly covet — Stephen Curry, Jordan Hill or Jrue Holiday. According to NBAdraft.net, the Knicks have offered guard Wilson Chandler as part of a package to move up. The report also states that the Knicks might be able to add the No. 5 pick without sacrificing the eight pick, which I find a bit implausible. Chandler is a decent player — the 6-foot-8, soon-to-be third year swingman averaged 14.4 points and 5.4 rebounds in Mike D’Antoni’s high octane offense last year — but no way is he worth the fifth pick straight up. Especially not after recently having surgery to remove bone spurs from his left ankle. The salaries don’t match up, either.
Minnesota is also reportedly trying to acquire another high first-round pick — the Timberwolves already own three first round picks, including No. 6 — with the hope of getting Connecticut’s Hasheem Thabeet or Ricky Rubio. New General Manager David Kahn sounds like he wants to be a big mover and shaker on draft night, but it’s hard to see how any of his assets — Mike Miller, Randy Foye, and the expiring contracts of Brian Cardinal and Mark Madsen — could get the Wizards to budge. Kahn has said that no player on his roster is untouchable, but I cannot see him using Kevin Love or Al Jefferson for the fifth pick.
I can easily see the Wizards moving down in this draft, since, based on conversations that I’ve had with people around the league, there really isn’t much separation from the players in that four through 10 range. It really comes down to how desperate a team is to get that one player it desires. I spoke with a player agent who told me that from his conversations with league executives, there will be enough trades this Thursday to blow away any wild draft day in recent memory — including 2006, when there were 15 trades on draft night. The wackiest night belonged to Foye, who pulled off a draft night hat trick as he was drafted by Boston, traded to Portland then traded to Minnesota.
I can also tell you that unless he is totally blown away, Ernie Grunfeld does not plan on trading any of his Big Three (Gilbert Arenas, Caron Butler or Antawn Jamison) in any deal. His hope is to use the fifth pick as his primary asset in any deal, not the pick and one of his top three players. The goal is to add to the Wizards core, not subtract from it.
And, as Sports Illustrated’s Ian Thomsen mentioned in his latest column, the Wizards would also love to unload Etan Thomas’s expiring contract in any deal. Thomsen also mentions that Dallas is interested in moving up, with the intent of drafting Hill.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2009/06/more_draft_buzz.html
Another league source confirmed Minnesota has been haggling to land the Wizards 5th pick, but called it unlikely that the teams would be able to reach an agreement. The source said there is, however, a possibility that Minnesota would be able to work a deal with Oklahoma City to obtain the third pick.
Stay tuned . . .
http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/outlet/2009/jun/20/twolves-eying-5th-pick/
well if we were going to give any pieces of our roster to the wizards to make it worth their while it would have to include MMiller. they are looking to put some shooters around Arenas and Butler and Miller can shoot. Foye would be another idea. he has shot a high percentage in the past…don’t quite know what he shot last year %wise but i know the year before he was in the 40% range.
forge, i can’t imagine there’s a way for the wolves to move up to three w/out giving up the 6 pick?
so far everything I’ve read has indicated to me, and maybe if Jama were around he could be more help but it would appear that kahn doesn’t want to give up that 6pick but have two top six picks.
I really like what I have seen of Rubio, but with so many good PG in this draft, if we move up it should be for Thabeet. suppose we take Rubio and a SG with our first two picks, what options do we have for our other picks? Mullins is most likely off the boards by the time we draft again and that is pretty much it for decent bigs. I will be very disappointed if Kahn trades away either Love or Al, but it would be nice to have a 7 footer on the roster. On the other hand, if we take Thabeet we have a lot more options with our remaining picks. Take the best available slasher or PG next and use your third pick to fill the other need. I can gaurentee that there will be one (if not more) stud guard picked in the later half of the first round so use the strengths of this draft for your advantage.
Wow, I am trying to figure out if Oklahoma would want anything besides the 6 and can’t come up with anything. Unless Kahn has another plan to move back into the lottery with another team. Not sure if Mike Miller is enough to get you back into anything above 10. I also have the feeling that Craig Smith’s days are numbered if they keep Kevin Love.
If they can get the 5th pick for Miller, Foye, Rhino and expirings (and maybe the Utah pick next year) and an FA center (Gortat at something over mid-level? Zaza from ATL?) a pretty neat team would be:
C Al, Gortat, Etan Thomas
PF Al, Love
SF Gomes, Brewer
SG Evans or Harden, somebody at 18 (Terrence Williams?)
PG Curry or Flynn (or Maynor, but not likely avail at 18), Bassy
Then they can trade Love next year for a better center. Or SF, if Brewer doesn’t come around. Or keep him if Al clicks at center.
well theres some different things w/ Oklahoma City. I think we could leverage the 18th pick w/ them and they might be looking to add a mike miller. I don’t think they would want foye already having watson and westbrook and desmond mason but they may be interested in Foye I suppose. craig smith and more than likely someone like Gomes to pair w/ Green and Durant at the two forward spots.
Hey, does anyone know what the status is of Rubio’s contract? If the wolves move up how much would it cost them to get him out of his current deal? Could be a factor.
My T-Wolves board for the top 10, I don’t think any of these slip to 18.
1. Griffin
2. Rubio
3. Evans
4. Harden
5. Curry
6. Thabeet
7. Flynn
8. Derozan
9. Jennings
10. Hill
washington is certainly the easier partner in the fact that we wouldn’t have to give up the 6 pick and would still be able to meet their needs. I don’t know if we could get a deal done w/ OKC and not include the 6.
no I don’t know if any of those guys will be around it certainly raises a question though since last year the first round saw a couple players that may or may not have been mid 1st round picks slip until late in the 1st round or even into the 2nd round as in the case of CDR.
so I’m sure one of those guys will drop back a little later
my 320 post just caused me to think about something though. if we could get the 5 pick f/ Washington w/out swapping picks w/ them. then use the 6 pick to trade up to 3 w/ OKC then everyone on here that wants Rubio would probably get their wish. and Kahn would make a huge splash and get two highly rated players. maybe it would look something like this
Wash gets Miller, #28
Wolves get #5
OKC get #6, Foye
Wolves get #3
idk something like that.
yeah i’d agree with that… my guess is if any of them slip it will be jennings or derozan to somewhare in the 14-16 range but i don’t think he slips all the way to 18.
those are the two guys that I think might slip as well. I haven’t read anything about any of their personal work outs other than Jerry’s report on Jennings when they were in the twin cities last week but I haven’t heard anything as far as Derozen goes.
I can’t see the Thunder doing anything but swapping No. 3 for 6 in some sort of deal. I’d think the only team’s pick you might be able to get without giving up No. 6 are Washington’s and Memphis’ and it would take Kevin Love to get the Memphis’ pick. For all of his intentions, my best guess is that David Kahn will find out it’s hard to wheel and deal in this league and if I had to bet, the Wolves come away with just that sixth pick. Miller and No. 28 wouldn’t nearly do it to get Washington’s pick, plus you’ve got to take back $9 million (Etan Thomas, DeShawn Stevenson, etc.) or more in salary to make that work.
Jerry
Do you have the specifics on Kahn’s contract? Length and money?
I’ve heard it’s basically the same money as Mac’s (who never had a contract): $1 million-ish a year, three years.
This is another reason why I don’t want Harden:
“Harden had, frankly, a terrible workout, missing an avalanche of jumpshots while dealing with the stifling defense of small orange cones. Arguably worse than all the missed shots was how clearly frustrated Harden got.”
I think will move up and have the sixth…Jerry whats up with the gloom now about the Wolves not doing anything else? I think Kahn’s gonna prove all of you wrong.
Watch his masterpiece unfold.
“This is another reason why I don’t want Harden”
Because of one bad workout?
I agree that of all the “top prospects” that DeRozen and Jennings are the most likely to slide on draft day. The uber-athletic guys who many think have potential to bust always seem to slide more than expected.
Do you guys remember Gerald Green’s draft night? He was rumored to be Top-5, no worse than Top-10. Dropped. Dropped. Dropped. Dropped… to No. 18.
There seems to be a wide-range of opinions on these guys, so that will take a number of teams out of consideration by itself. Add to that the fact that several GMs feel they can’t afford to miss on their top draft picks. So I also believe that several teams will take a player with a perceived lower ceiling in exchange for a player who is a safer bet than DeRozen or Jennings.
But one thing is clear… this will probably be the draft with the greatest amount of movement EVER. And The Wolves has a multitude of moveable assets - all the 2009 and future draft picks they’ve stockpiled, expiring contracts and good, young players with manageable salaries. Further, they have a new GM looking to make a splash.
I think I’ve posted and heard almost every argument that could possibly be made about what The Wolves should do… so I’m not sure how much any of us can add at this point that hasn’t already been played out on this board…
But it sure is going to be a very fun 5-day period leading up to Thursday night!
I’m sure that David Kahn has had his decision making process greatly aided by all of our ideas and discussion. I, for one, am looking forward to Thursday and the rest of the off season with hopes of being compelled to find some cash to use on some tickets.
I want to believe! (Channelling Fox Mulder.)
I have also said on here that I don’t think Harden is quick enough or fast enought to play the 2, and he is more of an off the ball guard/sf and if we don’t get a pg then we need a sg that can be on the ball more and make plays. I want Evans or Holliday with the 6th pick
ChrisH -
1. Harden’s athleticism has measured extremely well.
2. As a SG, he’s generally expected to be an off-the-ball guard… Hence the 2-guard synonym of “Off Guard.” I can’t see how that’s a negative.
It’s all moot, though, because Harden will be long gone by No. 6 (or No. 5 if we add Washington’s pick somehow).
We need a playmaker bad and thats not his strength and you can measure athleticism all you want, I recall Love scoring well on athleticism I think and he isn’t fast or explosive at all
ChrisH -
1. You bring up a tanget topic, but I’ll bite… Love’s athleticism is under-rated, as I’ve said before, because folks refuse to see past that fact that he’s white, doesn’t jump high and isn’t a world-class sprinter. But the fact is that he moves his feet extremely well in the paint and holds players below their nightly scoring averages in most games… you can’t do those things if you’re not athletic. He’s quick in small spaces, not fast in big spaces. I’d rather have the former.
2. But back to the topic at hand, James Harden. If by “playmaker” you mean PG, then I agree. We have more options at SG currently than we do at PG… so I agree we need a “playmaker.” But Harden finishes around the rim incredibly well, gets to the FT line at an elite rate and shoots extremely well. To me, those are the type of “plays” I want my shooting guard to be “making” at the pro level.
did you really just argue that kevin love is a good defensive player
really
I would rather have a guy that is quick in small spaces and big spaces. Also Evans is someone that could get up and down the court for some rare T-wolves transition points and if thats not there then slow it down and wait for Al and Love. If we get Maynor or a decent PG then we could have Brewer and Evans streaking down with Jennings or Maynor running the PG, that would be sweet.
No, Gendo, I didn’t make an argument at all about his defensive ability - good or bad.
I just typed a fact supported by stats. The stats say he holds his opponents to lower scoring than their nightly averages. The stats may be making an argument about Love’s defense, but I wasn’t.
So, without making another of your tired arguments (I respect those arguments, but I’m just not interested in hearing them… again), I’m curious what you’d make of those stats?
And Foo, just cause they didn’t score much against Love doesn’t mean much, he played like 25 minutes against the other guys playing more and plus the opposing guards were eating us up by driving and scoring against Love and Al almost at will
They’re mostly meaningless because they’re not in context of pace or opportunities. A better statistic to look at would be how much higher or lower in shooting percentage his man shoots on a given night against him versus their seasonal averages.
Lots of those games were probably one sided or blow outs so there best big guys played less
ChrisH - I dig your last post for two reasons:
1. You’re in a box because those scoring stats are on a per-minute basis; not a per-game basis. They state that Love keeps opposing players to lower scoring games than their nightly averages. So, by fact, Love is above average as it relates to opposing bigs’ scoring averages.
2. The fact that opposing guards were “eating us up by driving and scoring against Love and Al” is a clear statement of why I have been screaming at the top of my lungs that we need defensive-oriented perimeter players more than a one-dimensional shot-blocker in the post to help our team defense. I’ve been adamant that a strong perimeter defense (Brewer returning healthy and adding a strong defensive rookie would go a long ways) will make folks forget about the defense of Al and Love.
I’m not saying that Al and Love are great defenders at all, but don’t you consider it ironic how lopsided the complaints are out there about our various players’ defensive abilities? Does anybody ever whine about the defense of Telfair or Foye nearly as much as they do about Al and Love? The fact is that Al and Love won’t have do nearly as much defensively if they had any support along the perimeter. This won’t make Al and Love any better, necessarily, but it will show that our defensive issues are a lot bigger than just Al and Love… even though that’s all the many folks on this board have the ability to see.
The stat is an average… so could there be some outliers in the sample of 81 games? Absolutely, yes. But 81 games is plenty of a sample size to make that average statistically-significant.
Not the end-all, be-all by any stretch, but I can’t see how you can completely write it off like you appear to be doing.
Yeah, the stats can hit me in the face, but I just watch and don’t see good defense from Love or Jefferson yet, Love was a rookie so I will ease off but I still want us to get a lot quicker and more explosive thru this draft. No one on our team really scares opposing teams. If they wanted to stop Al they could but it didn’t matter last year because he would play great and we would still get spanked
ChrisH - now that (your 9:10 post) is where we find common ground. Love and Al are very good NBA starters, but not perfect. I’m dying to add a back-court stud. Not sure if that player is in this draft…
I will say that I believe if we had a back-court superstar (a player at the level or LeBron, Paul, Wade, Kobe), we’d be a 60-win team with Love and Al starting in the frontcourt.
One thing that is nice to hear is that Kahn believes Al and Love are Options 2 and 4 on a championship team. I’m a huge fan of both of those players, but you can’t go into a team-building project with the believe that Al is a true Option 1. LeBron and Kobe and true Option 1s.
Maybe we’ll wind up with a special, special player at some point. But until then, our ceiling is probably 45 wins.
Adam W, masterpiece? What flavor was the Kool Aid you drank? Grape? Fruit punch? I’m not sure yet if David Kahn is painting with oils or scribbling with crayon. Nobody knows that yet, but we’ll have a better idea come Thursday night.
Foo- Is that special player gonna be Tyler H or Jerryz, just kidding Jerry, I saw you in the background of Kare11 sports the other night, have you lost some weight
I think they were interviewing Flynn who looks really short, Is he really listed at 6 feet?
Flynn is 6 feet with a 6′4″ wingspan and a 40′ vertical. He’s legit.
IMHO, Tyler H. will be the least special player in this draft. I would be upset if we end up with Psycho T.
Sorry. Flynn has a 40″ vertical. 40 feet would be nice though. . .
I’m digging Flynn… defense, athleticism, leadership, speed.
40 feet sounds like my vertical, that or 4 inches, lol
Jerry I like that your not all the way Kahn yet. I thought you would be being he reads your material….
But I do believe Kahn is sincere and we will be headed in the right direction come Thursday. By the way I’m drinking Cherry Kool-Aid. Love your reads, keep up the good work.
Just wondering why do you think were only coming out with the 6 only? Kahn sounds like he’s gonna start chopping heads come draft night. I can’t wait.
Jerry, in all honesty w/ only 4 days until the draft, what is your take on how much the wolves roster is going to change?
do you think Kahn will make any big moves like Mac did last year?
The draft is ten deep, in my opinion.
*Griffin is the clear No. 1
*2nd tier is Rubio, Harden & Thabeet
*Next tier is Holiday, Evans, Curry, DeRozen, Hill, Flynn
Any additional pick in The Top-10 would be nice, but getting inside the Top-4 will really make a huge impact on The Wolves’ draft-day haul.
has anyone heard or read anything on what Memphis is going to do at #2 yet? It would seem that taking Thabeet might be for the reason to trade either Gasol or Thabeet(IMO) i don’t know if they would keep both of those guys although they could. and in drafting Rubio would put an end to the Mike Conley experiment?
If Memphis were to grab Thabeet we could probably get Gasol for our #18 or #28 pick….I wouldn’t care for Conley, I’d hope for CURRY or EVANS and the team would look like this-
C- Gasol,
PF- Jefferson, Love, Smith
SF- Gomes,Brewer
SG- Miller, Foye,
PG- EVANS/CURRY, Telfair
The team would definetly be bigger and more athletic but could use help at the SF position
If Memphis does take Thabeet with intentions to keep him, Gasol becomes expendable, but only to an extent. I don’t think they would be very excited to have a front court of Darko, Thabeet, Arthur and Warrick. Gasol has more upside or is more NBA ready than any of the other 4 so I don’t see them just giving him away. What would they get from #18 & #28? I just don’t see them jumping at getting two more rookies with lower than lottery ceilings.
Here’s an interesting blog by Givony from DX:
http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/#Word-on-the-Street-June-22nd-3276
It seems like people are making up rumors simply b/c Kahn is stated to want to make a splash. I personally don’t see him making a Miller for Kaman/Camby trade until after the draft. Neither of those two guys have huge markets for them so I would think Kahn would wait until draft night to try and use Miller, then if he doesn’t find anything substantial, make the trade (which btw, I’m against). Also, very interesting about the Rubio camp warming up to coming to Minny. I also read a rumor today that his buyout will be lowered so it would almost guarantee he would come over next year.
jballer beat me to it. Good sign that Rubio may be warming up to coming here.
Memphis has been going back and forth with what it wants to do with the No. 2 pick and is in the most pivotal position in this draft. ESPN’s Ric Bucher is reporting on his Twitter page that there is dissention in Memphis, where General Manager Chris Wallace wants Rubio, Coach Lionel Hollins wants Stephen Curry and the scouting department wants Hasheem Thabeet: “that’s your memphis grizzlies,” Bucher tweets.
Oklahoma City is interesting, but mostly because General Manager Sam Presti is quite shrewd and opportunistic. Realizing the value in Rubio — the Knicks and Timberwolves are among the handful of teams that would love to have him — Presti might be willing to move him to get more assets for the team he is building. He could also skip Rubio and go with James Harden to solidify the Thunder’s needs at shooting guard. Of course, he could also simply take Rubio and pair him in the backcourt with Westbrook.
jballer - thanks for posting that link! Regarding The Clippers trade proposal:
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“-According to an NBA source, super active Minnesota Timberwolves GM David Kahn has offered Mike Miller to the Los Angeles Clippers in exchange for Chris Kaman. The Clippers shot down that trade, but countered with Marcus Camby.”
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Why in the world would LAC decline a Kaman-for-Miller trade? And why in the world would we make that offer in the first place?
Trade an expiring contract for a center who can’t stay healthy and with a long, bad contract? After shedding all our bad contracts and getting so much flexibility, I can’t ever see us taking on Kaman at roughly 3 years, $33M total remaining. That makes no sense to me… so I just can’t believe an actual offer ever happened unless there was something else coming our way in the package… like the draft pick we owe The Clips, for example.
Also the report that Thabeet opted out of his workout for the Griz is another interesting story. What exactly will they do with the #2? The only guy who has been rumored there who has even come in for them is Harden. I still think they are targeting Evans (played at Memphis) or Hill (PF need). I also liked in the the DX report that Kahn is trying to get #2 without trading Love. I think everything is so screwed up in Memphis that they take Rubio with #2 regardless, realizing that he has the most trade value. If Hill or Evans fall to us I think we could definitely make a play for Rubio without giving up Love. However, if they did this I would still want them to try and trade into the top 12 to get a wing or higher if Thabeet slips a little.
Swan Dizzle - if you’re out there… what was your trade idea to get Robin Lopez from PHX?
Just read that Phoenix is not overly enamored with Lopez’ value from last year’s draft position. He didn’t have overwhelming numbers, but did average 0.7 bpg in only 10 mpg. He’d average 1.0 bpg if he had 15 mpg and he’s a legit, 7-0 “springy” type center who could complement our “grounded” Al at the center position.
Do you think the No. 28 pick would get it done straight up?
With all the moving and shaking The Wolves are expected to do, I hope that they somehow manage to keep the No. 28 pick, though, just because there is some intrigue to it.
I’d love to draft and stash a top-Euro like Jarebko, Casspi or Claver. I’d also be pretty happy to land Darren Collison, Calathes, Ellington or Taj Gibson.
I’d like to have two rookies join the squad in addition to 1-2 Eurostashes.
nbadraft today has The Wolves picking Jordan Hill over Jonny Flynn and Tyreke Evans.
Yeah… I don’t think so.
foo, and someone I’m sure would correct me if i’m wrong, i don’t think the 28 pick would be enough to get Lopez straight up, he was the 15th pick overall last year and something tells me in order for the money to be right the Wolves would have to offer 18 and cash to make it equal. but I’m sure someone can help out even more
I think you’re right about Lopez’ value, wow. From our perspective, I just believe this draft is very deep with players who will top out as dependable reserves. And that’s all I think Lopez will be.
So there may just be too much of a value disconnect for anything to get done for Lopez. In other words, would you rather have Lopez for the 18th and cash or just sit tight at 28 and pick Taj Gibson? Like Lopez, Gibson projects to be a reserve big who can defend the center spot.
Jerry,
Could you clarify for us where the Ray Allen trade rumor came from? Some Boston fans are saying it started here at the Strib which is obviously not true.
Thanks
Foo, I wrote before that with the Amare for Al thing that I would have only done that if we would have got Lopez too and not given up a pick. But I agree with you 100%…. this time (lol) I really like Gibson and I think he could be a player like Charlie Villanueva or better with some work. I hope we could steal Gibson at the 28th. He just so athletic and if we keep Love and Al we will need a shot blocker and the 28th pick is all it would take to fill a whole
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