So many point guards, so little time
Posted on July 1st, 2009 – 11:08 AMBy Jerry Zgoda
Man, I can’t keep up with these threads….more than 300 comments in less than a day. You’re right, you do have the fever. I’ll try to get here every now and then to start a new topic during my time away, just so there’s not a 2,000-comment thread. We’ll also probably have other reporters update it from time to time as there is news.
Here’s a “Wolves Insider” I wrote for today’s paper touching on free agency, the Rubio/Flynn situation, etc.
401 Responses to "So many point guards, so little time"
From the last thread, that will be lost if I don’t re-post it:
>
>
>
Every year a late draft pick turns out to be a very good pro, sometimes a star.
I’m not sure of the long-term prognosis on Wayne Ellington; and I’m not over-hyping him like some folks have suggested.
But I’m just going on the record to say that he’ll be on the 2nd-Team All-Rookie team this year year.
There was such parity in draft picks this year after the first few picks, so it’s going to be an easier year in general for a late 1st-rounder to make a bigger than expected impact. Add to that, Ellington is going to have a tremendous opportunity for playing-time and he’s got a great variety of high-level shooting skills - spot-up, off-the-dribble, creating his own shot, 42% from 3-point range last year.
I just think the combination of his ability, his opportunity and the parity in the draft this year will give him a great opportunity.
As I’ve said, I believe his ceiling is equal to Randy Foye’s ceiling, though they are different types of 2-guards. So I’m not getting carried away, here… I just think Ellington is going to be a very good rookie year.
BTW… I just put together a mock All-Rookie 1st and 2nd teams to see if I was way off in predicting Wayne Ellington will make the All-Rookie 2nd-team.
And, here’s the deal. There is such little NBA-ready talent in this draft. Even some of the best talent in the draft will not be able to contribute right away. Here’s what I came up with:
1st-Team
Blake Griffin
Tyreke Evans
James Harden
Terrence Williams
Jonny Flynn (if Rubio stays in Europe)
Hasheem Thabeet
Wayne Ellington
Stephen Curry
Tyler Hansborough
DeJuan Blair (if Rubio stays in Europe)
If Rubio plays in The NBA on a different roster than Jonny Flynn, then I’m putting Rubio on the first team and sliding Flynn to the second team and taking Blair off the list.
Here’s a Flynn mix. Check out the dunk at the end. I’m looking forward to that.
Evidently, The Rockets REALLY want Marcin Gortat… this from ESPN’s Rumor Mill:
>
>
>
“FREE AGENCY: Rockets want Gortat
Marcin Gortat | Magic
Rockets.com reports Houston wants Marcin Gortat so bad that Rockets’ general manager Daryl Morey rang the door bell at Gortat’s Orlando-area home at 12:01 am this morning.
The Rockets have had Gortat on their radar screen since the midway point of the 2008-09 season.
Morey is asking fans to aid in the recruitment process by sending Gortat a note at rocketsfanslovegortat@gmail.com to show how much they want him in a Rockets’ uniform next season.”
Hey Jerry,
Any chance of the Wolves landing Ben Gordon?
15 Players is The NBA limit for an NBA roster. The Wolves are currently at 15 contracts and clearly need to balance out their depth chart… what do you think Minnesota will do? Here’s their current depth chart:
PG - Flynn - Rubio - Telfair - B.Brown
SG - Wayne Ellington
SF - Brewer - Gomes - Cardinal
PF - Love - Songalia - C.Smith - O.Pecherov
C – Jefferson - Thomas - Madsen
Buyouts are possible, but all the legit candidates for buy-outs have expiring contracts and, hence, are assets. It will be interesting to see how Kahn weaves this web.
Dallas, New York and Indiana also hot after Gortat, according to Marc Stein…
Why wouldn’t The Wolves be pursuing this guy?
Another Marc Stein nugget that relates to a top from yesterday’s board:
>
>
>
“Bruce Bowen could eventually hit the free-agent market, but not before August. Milwaukee has to waive Bowen — with a payout of $2 million — by Aug. 1 or else his $4 million salary for next season becomes fully guaranteed.
So the Bucks will explore their trade options with Bowen first — and won’t have a lack of opportunities, from what I gather — and then release him if they don’t find a palatable deal in the next month. The Magic and Cavs would be among the natural contending suitors if Bowen becomes an unrestricted free agent, with Orlando possibly possessing an advantage in the presence of coach Stan Van Gundy, who knows Bowen well from their time together with the Miami Heat before the 38-year-old swingman went to San Antonio in 2001.”
Sounds like he’s hoping for a contending team, obviously. But if those teams determine they don’t need Bowen, maybe we can get him as that “wise veteran” some folks have been seeking.
Because you’re going to have to overpay for a guy with a slender NBA resume. Somebody’s going to end up giving Gortat at least the MLE for four or five years. How many other times have we seen the “center of the moment” sign such a deal and flop?
Sorry for all the links, but this Marc Stein story from this morning is packed with topics relevant to The Wolves - this one on the coaching search:
>
>
>
“We’re also hearing that new Wolves president David Kahn is assembling a l-o-n-g list of candidates to interview for his coaching opening, suggesting that his search to replace Kevin McHale could consume the bulk of this month. Some of the more prominent names Kahn wants to talk to in addition to presumed favorite Mark Jackson: Sam Mitchell, Bill Laimbeer, Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw.”
Foo
Buying out Brown really doesn’t hurt the Wolves at all. He is making so little that the chances of his expiring contract making a difference in a trade is very low. If Rubio doesn’t come over that gives you 2 roster spots to fill via FA’s or trade.
There are two people to blame for Kahn having to juggle all these things at once.
1. Glenn Taylor for drawing out the POB opening for so long. That position should have been filled by the middle of May.
2. Kahn himself. Trying not to step on McHale’s toes lead to a back and forth that was completely pointless. Nobody actually though McHale was going to come back so he should have been let go the first week Kahn arrived.
Both of these things would have lead to a coach being hired by now, leaving Kahn time to focus on Free Agency, Trades, and the Rubio situation.
As for Gortat, yikes, he’s going to get overpaid. Things are setting up for a Jim McIlvane situation.
As for the coach, I like the idea of Brian Shaw. He always struck me as a fairly intelligent guy.
I think Gortat is a decent player and would be a great pickup as a Center coming off the bench for the Wolves. He’d be a great pickup at around $10 million for 3 years. He is going to get a much bigger contract than that I think the Wolves have no interest in spending that kind of money.
It sure seems like the Rockets are getting a little desperate now that there entire core of players is either injured or a possible FA.
The Rockets are going to be desperate for size with Mutombo gone and now Yao out for at least the year. But seeing as how they’re right at the cap, they’ll need to go for the efficient options, like Gortat.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see that team blow it up and start over. Yao’s out, McGrady is done as a Rocket even if he keeps playing, and my guess is Ron Artest is seriously reconsidering staying.
Bryan
I think the Rockets already realize their window has closed. That is why they have been pushing hard to make some trades. They really tried to get into the top 10 of the draft and they have been shopping McGrady’s contract. They just don’t have the assets to turn things around quickly in my opinion.
Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw aren’t leaving L.A. for this job. Sam Mitchell isn’t coming back to work here either unless he gets a really long term deal and a lot of money. If he doesn’t get the Pistons job, he’ll collect his millions the Raptors still owe him, play a lot of golf and wait for a good job to come around next summer. This job is a hard, hard sell for anyone in a position to say no.
They’re not going to get much for McGrady. Don’t plan on them rebuilding with assets they get for his contract.
If anything, Rambis will stay in LA in the hopes he gets to be Phil Jackson’s replacement.
You’re on a championship team, living the great life in L.A., you’ve got money and Phil isn’t going to coach forever, might not even coach next year. Why come here?
Would you guys have any interest in bringing in an older SG to show some of the young bucks the ropes?
Anthony Parker is a FA who shouldn’t break the bank who might look at the playing time available and sign a one or two year contract. What do you think?
So Jerry other than Mark Jackson and the Czar who do you think is an option?
Jerry–really?
I know this is a tough sell and not the ideal situation, but it’s also one of 30.
If Shaw knows that Rambis is the next guy, he still doesn’t take the Wolves job?
I know things are bad, but are they really that bad?
VERY flattering Doyel article on CBS Sportsline this morning.
The thesis: Minnesota is a terrible place to live, the Wolves are “the worst franchise in the NBA”, Kahn is an idiot, and Rubio is right to want to stay in Europe.
Doyel does win the award for iPod I’d least like to borrow, though.
I’d rather bring in those mentor types as assistant coaches. Kevin Ollie would be a perfect assistant coach to work with our young point guards…he wants to coach, and this way, he wouldn’t count against the cap or roster count.
I don’t really like the idea of spending assets and taking up roster space on veteran guys just to have them be practice players. Spend that stuff on talent that can really play for us, and bring the mentors in as coaches to work with the team in practice. That’s about all they’d do if they were on the roster anyway.
Plus, I think having veteran roster players is overrated anyway. If they can play 20 minutes a game like Ollie did last year, then great. If they’re going to be 12th men though, they’re just wasting bench seats.
Looking at some salaries, Tracy McGrady will be the highest paid player this upcoming season with Jermaine O’Neal at #3. How disgusting is that?
Kobe’s about to sign a 3 year extension for at least $90 million. Does anyone else think the Lakers may be cutting their own throats by giving him that much?
yes, things are that bad, Madison Dan
I’d add Laimbeer as a legitimate option. Maybe (??) you could talk Shaw into it.
Most in the coaching fraternity look at this situation like Sally did so tearfully in “When Harry Met Sally.” This next one is the transitional person, this isn’t the ONE. Whoever takes this job is taking it to get fired two seasons from now or the year after.
Kobe’s worth it. What the Lakers will regret is the money they spent on Bynum, plus the money they’re about to spend on Odom and Ariza.
Bryan
I think Parker would be the starting SG for the Wolves next year. It’s not like he is some scrub that can’t play. At the very least he would get 20 minutes per night and would add some D and some outside shooting.
Charles Barkley recommends Del Harris. I agree. He has a good win/loss record as head coach.
Does Del still want to coach? I thought he left the Bulls because he doesn’t want to do it anymore.
I think whoever gets this job will get a nice, long leash… as long as the team competes and the players continue to improve.
For any up and comer I think it’s a great opportunity. Some good young talent, a patient front office, and very low expectations. Plus Rubio has got to make it look attractive.
Last I heard, Del Harris had no interest in coaching.
And if Rubio plays this year, Flynn will start at shooting guard.
Rodman -
We’re going to have to rely on Kahn really selling this. Who knows maybe he’s telling them not to worry because we’re not going to have rookie point guards, maybe he’s telling them that they’ll have a long leash. Alot of maybe type things to wonder about.
However, if the team is only winning 20 games a year after two years people are going to be pretty pissed about that. Maybe that’s why you hire somebody like Paul Silas, who if Jerry is to believed just once to coach one more time. He’d probably know his time is short and he’s 66 I think so it’s not like he’d be doing a long time anyway. Then you hire Marc Jackson as the head assistant coach with the idea that when Silas is gone in two years or so that he steps in as the head coach.
Jerry,
Nice reference. I think McHale was our transition relationship. I’m hoping for the ONE. Yeah I know, I’m drinking the Kool-Aid by the bucketful.
Bryan
I realize that Kobe is one of the two top players in the league, but to give a guy over half of your soft cap seems a little ridiculous to me. It basically means the Lakers will not be able to sign another teams impact FA for as long as Kobe and Bynum are there. That is of course unless a player signs for the MLE, which would be below their market value.
Bynum and Kobe will account for at least $45 million per starting in the 2011/2012 season.
Not a bad idea Mark.
I am hoping Kahn can sell this. I’m so tired of people ripping the Wolves. We’ve got a new guy, it’s not McHale and MN is a great place to live.
That’s why I appreciate Flynn. He knows he’s found a great situation and isn’t afraid of a little cold.
What’s up with Ashy just dumping on Minneapolis in his article about the top locations for NBA players?
How Milwaukee or Sacramento is any more desirable than Minneapolis right now is pretty confusing to me.
there was a hoopsworld article indicating HArris wants to coach the Wolves.
Hey, McFly, what do you place the over-under at for when everybody else on this blog is going to be begging for McHale to be back?
The Lakers don’t need to sign and impact free agents though. If they retain Odom and Ariza, and make decent offers to Farmar and Shannon Brown, they’re set for at least the next 3 years.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13103
here it is.
Del Harris wants back into the league, but this time he wants to be back in the big chair. No more guidance counselor jobs for Harris, he wants to lead his own team once again. What better place for Harris to make his comeback than in Minnesota, where a young team is desperately in need of a veteran voice?
A source close to Harris told HOOPSWORLD today that he would like nothing better than to take on the challenge of an exciting young team like the Timberwolves, and the Timberwolves would do well to hear what Harris has to say before they commit their foreseeable future to an inexperienced coach. After all, we’ve seen the success inexperienced coaches have had across the NBA, and the record isn’t good (see: Phoenix, Charlotte [before Brown], Detroit, Sacramento). If Minnesota is serious about restarting their franchise, and the talent they just acquired in the draft makes them ripe for a new era of exciting basketball, it seems logical that they would want a seasoned veteran on their bench, calling the shots, rather than a young coach who is just as inexperienced as the players he’s expected to mold. The success Kevin McHale had at the helm of the Timberwolves last season demonstrated that fact clearly
Charles Barkley mentioned Del Harris and used the following logic: he has never been a fan of a young coach coaching a young team; you don’t need some young coach running up and down the sidelines, you need a nerdy coach who can develop young players. Harris has coached some of the greatest budding stars in the NBA.
Whether or not Harris would coach for two years while preparing an assistant coach to take over is entirely uncertain. But the logic is indisputable and entirely consistent with Kahn’s perspective that the team is in the player development mode.
Jerry, I’m afraid the hate McHale disease is fatal with no cure in sight. I will lay odds that the win/loss record for the upcoming season under a new regime will be no better than McHale’s complete win/loss record as a coach.
I don’t think we’re in a position to be looking for a long term coach right now. I think we’re in the same position as the Bulls when they blew up the Jordan era and hired guys like Tim Floyd and Bill Cartwright just to keep the seat warm until they figured out what they had.
Course, they Bulls made a flotilla of mistakes that kept setting back the rebuilding plan year after year. Hopefully Kahn doesn’t do that.
This is off topic, but I was just thinking: where could Rubio go where he would face less competition for minutes than he would here? (No knock on Flynn, but he hasn’t played a minute in the NBA yet.) Don’t factor in what the team could give back in a trade.
I’d say the list is short. Maybe Indiana, Charlotte, or Milwaukee. Dallas or Houston if they decide to rebuild. The Knicks for sure. I’d say Sacramento, but they passed on Rubio to take Evans, who needs to play point for them, so that doesn’t seem different from the Flynn situation. (Why did they pass on Rubio again? It seems like a perfect fit.)
Unless people think the list is a lot longer, it does make me wonder whether Flynn is actually the primary barrier to Rubio coming over.
Indiana has TJ Ford.
The only real candidates for minutes are New York and Philadelphia.
Bryan — Jerry Krause didn’t hire Tim Floyd as a seat-warmer. He actually thought Floyd was the next great coach.
You don’t hire coaches as seat-warmers. Too much is at stake to just hire a guy thinking you’re going fire him in a year or two. It may prove out to be what you in fact do, but I would argue if you’re going into the process thinking your hiring a temporary coach, you’re making a real mistake.
Harris coached seven seasons in Puerto Rico’s National Superior League (1969-75), posting a 176-61 record and winning three national championships (1973-75).
Would have certainly picked up some spanish during his stay. Make Ricky a little more comfy? With Mark Jackson head assistant would certainly make Johnny and Ricky a little more interested in playing together.
If Rubio is the starting PG next year Flynn will NOT be the starting SG. He will be the starting PG for another team.
Teams definitely hire coaches as seat warmers. Look what the Suns did with Frank Johnson….it was obvious there that he was a placeholder while the team groomed Mike D’Antoni.
If we can hire a long term coach, then great, but I agree with Jerry on this. Whoever we hire is probably 80-90% likely to be fired in two years, when the team knows what it has in terms of players and is looking for greatness from the coach.
I agree 100% Sean. That approach doesn’t really make sense.
D’Antoni didn’t need to be “groomed”. He had extensive head coaching experience overseas and had been an NBA coach before. I’ll agree that he was brought into the Suns to be the Randy Wittman to Johnson’s Dwane Casey, but that doesn’t imply that Johnson (or Casey) were merely seat-warmers. It was a hedge against failure.
I would argue that if you’re hiring a coach with the notion that you’re going to fire him shortly, why hire the guy in the first place? If you’re hiring a seat-warmer, are you really doing your best to find out what you have with your players? I don’t think so. And with all the flux this team has had from a coaching standpoint, why would we want to intentionally keep shuffling the deck there?
That might be the best idea I’ve heard yet. Bring in someone as top assistant and groom him until Del has had enough.
you’re very welcome
Though I have to say, would Paul Silas be a better option than Del Harris. I mean I know they’re both old but Del like 70 years old isn’t he?
Sean-
Because we have no idea what our players bring to the table as a team yet, or even if these are the players that will stick. If you hire a coach and he runs the wrong system for your players, you actually end up hindering their development. That’s why I so strongly oppose Avery Johnson…look at how badly he held back Devin Harris.
I’d rather hire an old hand that will instill discipline and respect in the players, but will tailor the system to them, rather than try to fit them in a box.
Jerry-
You brought up the idea of hiring Paul Silas and bringing in a guy like Jackson or Laimbeer as an assistant, with the intention of one of them replacing Silas when he’s had enough. Fantastic concept. That’s the kind of thing I hope Kahn does.
Why does Detroit want Ben Gordon so bad, does that mean my boy Rip Hamilton is available then 
Go get him, Rip for President
I gotta say that the Silas/Jackson combo might be pretty nice. Jerry, I remember you saying one time that Silas was one of the best personel managers in the league and frankly, he’s not a bad coach. Have him as the head and Jackson learning the fine art of managing NBA players. This way we have a mentor for Rubio/Flynn or both and he steps in and is able to run the same progam as the previous two or three years.
Rip has been available all season. Detroit’s rebuilding and he’s too old for their long term plans.
And ours.
On the Wolves’ Facebook page, people keep clamoring for Hedo or Artest or Odom. Bad bad suggestions. All we’d do is wasted a ton of money on a player that will be 35 when we’re ready to really go somewhere.
jama - I sort of agree. If a buyout is necessary in order to open up a roster spot, it’s probably Bobby Brown.
But those small contracts come in very useful for trade-salary tweaking at the deadline.
But, yeah, he’s probably the one who would be bought out.
I hope Hamilton ends up on a good team, he’s a good guy and if Orlando didn’t get Carter, Hamilton would have been a great addition to get them a ring
jama - I love Anthony Parker, but he’s declining after playing so many years in Europe. I actually did a 1-on-1 interview with him during his college days. He’s always been a class act. More importantly, he’s got a nice, well-rounded game and plays excellent defense.
I’d be all on board for bringing him in - 2 years, $5M total with a team option.
Put me firmly in the DEL HARRIS CAMP.
I thought about that guy before, but with his last position with The Bulls, I just assumed he was cruising into retirement… but that dude knows a lot of basketball and has a lot of credibility.
SIGN HIM UP!
Paul Silas or Del Harris, with Mark Jackson as the assistant and eventual successor. I like it.
Okay, who’s turn is it to call Kahn about Del Harris?
Just caught up with the postings after being out the last few hours…
NO nibbles from the masses regarding my take on the All-Rookie 1st and 2nd teams?
1st Team
Flynn
Flynn
Flynn
Flynn
Ellington
Thats the team
I still want Quin Snyder. I do like Harris best out of the retreads though.
My guess for first team is Blake Griffin, Jordan Hill, Tyreke Evans, James Harden, and Steph Curry.
Although Flynn or Rubio could easily end up replacing Evans, Harden or Curry.
I don’t have too much to say about coaches, but the thought of Quin Snyder makes me throw up a little in my mouth.
Brayn — Isn’t it equally possible that the seat-warmer runs the wrong system, though? Harris or Silas or Fratello or whoever doesn’t come in here as a blank slate — they have a way that they like to have their teams play. How is it less likely that they run a system that’s harmful to the team’s development than if you hire someone who you think is really the right guy?
Bryan - Really on Jordan Hill? I’ve never been a huge fan and, for what it’s worth, Hollinger predicted he’ll be one of the worst rookies to be drafted this year. Hill and DeRozan.
What about your 2nd-team?
Sean-
Silas in particular I know always builds his system based on the players he has. You could argue that we could hire a young coach who would do the same, but I’ve seen a lot that the old hands are much more willing to go with the flow, and they don’t have a huge ego about it or any particular long term stake.
If the likelihood is any new coach will only last two years or so, why not hedge your bets? Hire one who’s only looking to coach 2 or 3 years anyway and let him know the point is to groom his top assistant to take over. That way you build for the future without anyone’s ego getting hurt, and you ultimately get the coach you want without having a guy with little or no experience trying to do everything all at once.
Foo — I think it’s tough to predict now, before we see how free agency shapes up.
But I would go as follows…
First team: Griffin, Harden, Evans, Curry, Williams
Second team: Flynn, Thabeet, Clark, Henderson, Hill
Foo-
Yes, Jordan Hill, for two reasons. One, he’s in the perfect system for him. He can run the floor and board, which means big scoring and rebounding numbers. Two, there just aren’t many big men in the draft. Thabeet is not in nearly as ideal a situation and doesn’t have the offensive game to be a stat monster (which is really what the stupid media voters look at). So it’s either Hill or guys way down at the bottom like BJ Mullens or Taj Gibson.
Definitely hard to quibble with that list, Sean. I, too, like Henderson and Clark.
The only reason I doubt Henderson’s rookie production is because Larry Brown seems to limit his rookies more than any other coach.
Foo
1st team
Griffin
Evans
Flynn
DeJuan Blair
Harden
2nd team
Terrance Williams
Holiday
Curry
Henderson
Earl Clark
Since we don’t know where Rubio is going to play I’m leaving him off. I’m not sure he would make either one of these teams anyway.
I know you think Ellington is going to be the starting SG, I just can’t imagine that. He is a horrible defender and doesn’t play nearly as athletic as he tested. I think he’ll get minutes but not 30+ like a starter would. Plus I don’t think he’ll do anything other than score and I don’t think that will be more than a dozen per game.
Also, I think Hansbrough will at least be on the second team, and maybe even the first depending on his role and how much time he gets behind or alongside Troy Murphy in Indiana.
Bryan — I don’t have a problem with the “groom a successor” idea.
I do have a problem with “hire a seat-warmer until you figure out what you’ve got”.
I still would prefer trying to find the right long-term guy up-front, though.
Bryan - I’m pretty sure the All-Rookie teams don’t take into account what position a player plays, though.
jama - “Horrible defense” is hyperbole, but I agree Ellington’s not a great defender.
Don’t you think anybody who averages 12 ppg has a pretty high likelihood of landing on the 2nd-team?
Bryan - I agree on Hansborough. I’m not a huge fan of his, but he’s got four years of high-level college experience and will have the opportunity to play in Indiana.
Will be interesting to see what Harden’s numbers are. There’s a lot of ball hungry people on that team.
What’s always dumb about those selections is the guys on bad teams who put up numbers have an advantage over who play on good teams. That’s why I wouldn’t pick Dejuan Blair, though I think he’ll be solid.
I’d probably put Curry on the first team. He’s going to score a lot of points this year (true it will be in 138-127 losses ;)).
As for Jordan Hill, if Lee doesn’t sign or gets traded he’ll be able to put some numbers up in D’Antoni’s system.
Aren’t “groom a successor” and “hire a seatwarmer” the same thing…? Either way, the head coach you initially hire is out the door in two or three years.
Aren’t “groom a successor” and “figure out what you’ve got” the same thing? Either way, the head coach you hire first is out the door within three years.
Hey HEY here’s some interesting news!!!!
Rudy Fernandez is apparently so upset over the Blazers’ pursuit of Hedo that he wants out of Portland.
What better way to shore up the 2 guard spot AND cater to Rubio than to trade for an freakishly athletic three point shooter and his former DKV teammate???
ATTN David Kahn. WE WANT THE NEW SPANISH CONNECTION
Foo
How would you describe Randy Foye’s defense? I don’t think you’ll see anything better out of Ellington. He might have more steals but that’s because he gambles quite a bit. Plus he’ll be guarding only 2’s and 3’s where Foye occasionally got to defend PG’s.
I think Ellington has a shot to make the 2nd team but it’s only because he is going to be because of the minutes he plays. I think his PER is going rank him in the 20’s for rookies.
Bryan — I would argue they aren’t the same — or at least they shouldn’t be. The goal for “groom a successor” is to set down a long-term path for the team. The transition between the initial coach and the successor should be as much of a non-event as possible. That means that the initial coach and the successor need to essentially be on the same page on things like style of play, how they operate, and the values they espouse. Think Tony Dungy to Jim Caldwell in the NFL, for instance.
C’mon people! RUDY FERNANDEZ
Bryan,
That’s what I said in the last post. He wouldn’t be hard to match the salary. Plus if the blazer’s land Hedo Rudy becomes redunant has they’ll have Turk and Roy. We may have to give up a Flynn for him. At least I think Flynn would get it done considering portland needs a pg pretty bad.
Though maybe I’m mistaken but I think Flynn would make more money than Fernandez so maybe portland has to throw in someone like Sergio as well. Who knows, maybe Minneapolis becomes little Barcelona.
Just for the sake of discussion, if you pretend/assume that Stephen Curry is a shooting guard, what distinguishes him from Wayne Ellington?
I became a big fan of Curry’s in the last few days before the draft and I still believe he’s a better player than Ellington. But if you take out Curry’s potential at PG, what does he do better than Ellington at the off-guard spot?
Trust me that I’m not making a statement here, either way… I’m just curious what other folks think about Curry-Ellington.
Rodriguez was traded to Sacramento
I bet if we were to offer a up say, Craig Smith, Ryan Gomes, and one of our later first rounder, and offer tot take back a contract they don’t want (Travis Outlaw?) the Blazers would be willing to talk Fernandez with us.
Right now they risk him walking for nothing.
Bryan,
Just curious… where did you find the article about Rudy?
jama - You definitely could be right on Ellington’s PER… but I think he’ll be higher than that. I’d predict he’s in the Top-10. I don’t think he’s going to be our savior, but I just think he was a great pick.
I’ve also said he could be (”could be” doesn’t mean it’s a prediction, BTW) one of those late picks who turns into a star. It’s definitely possible.
It’s actually on ESPN now.
Fernandez is strongly considering going back to Europe to play for Olympiakos, Madrid, or even back to DKV.
He’ll need to bet released from his NBA contract, but that wouldn’t be a problem if he threatens to not play for the Blazers. They’d rather trade him I’m sure than let him walk.
The Fernandez idea is intriguing. I checked his ESPN page, and this is part of Hollinger’s analysis going into last season:
“He’s slender and not a good defender and opponents will go right after him until he hits the weights and improves his one-on-one defense.”
Does anyone know whether he improved on defense last year?
I love the idea of bringing Fernandez to The Wolves and giving him big minutes.
Personally, though, I think Flynn is too much for a straight-up swap.
I’m also concerned that he’s another thin guy who struggles defensively.
I did an analysis of Ricky Rubio’s money situation, here.
http://jfsports.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/ricky-rubio-contract-analysis/
I think it’s clear, from this, that we can expect to see Rubio in MN next year.
His defense was hard to evaluate because he was a sixth man behind Roy and Nic Batum last year, but he has all the tools to be a good defender. Long arms, quick, athletic.
More importantly, he’s a very good deep shooter, very athletic, and has built in chemistry with Rubio. And he’s only 24 years old, so he can legitimately be here long term.
I’m thinking big:
Kevin Love
Craig Smith
Ryan Gomes
One or both of our first rounders
for
LaMarcus Aldridge
Travis Outlaw
Rudy Fernandez
Dunno what Portland’s thoughts are on Aldridge versus Love, but I think that’s pretty fair.
a Rubio/Fernandez back court would be pretty scary. It would be one of the longer backcourts in the league and frankly I think it could be really successful. Plus that allows Rubio to guard PG’s which means his lack of bulk isn’t going to bite him in the butt every game.
Bryan
I think there is less than a 1% chance Portland takes that deal. Unless the Blazers don’t think they can afford Aldridge when it’s time to re-up him that trade would be very one sided.
I don’t think Pritchard does that almost strictly from a PR stand-point. The fans in Portland are in love with every single player on that team. I’m guessing you don’t want to give up Aldridge, Outlaw, and Fernandez for essentially a year of Craig Smith, possibly a year of Ryan Gomes, and Kevin Love. Love is really the only decent player right now and you have to remember that people in Oregon hate him because he chose to go to UCLA.
We might be able to get a combination of Outlaw and Fernandez since they’ll be blocked by Roy, Batum, and Hedo but I don’t think we get Aldridge… not unless we want to throw in somebody like Flynn.
Though don’t get me wrong. I’d love to get those three players. Teaming them with Rubio would make us one of the most entertaining teams in the league.
I think Portland would package Outlaw with Fernandez though.
Maybe a deal of Smith, Pecherov, and Bobby Brown to give them some cap relief. The Wolves would probably have to throw in a 2nd round pick too. This trade seems a little more logical to me.
I don’t think they would want Gomes because of the length of his contract. They are going to have to re-sign their own players over the next couple of years and I think they’re trying to keep the payroll as flexible as possible.
Bryan… Not so fast on assuming you’ve made a conclusive statement about his defense just because he’s a sixth man. The guy played 78 games at nearly 26 mpg… that’s plenty of a sample size to determine what a player’s strengths and weaknesses are.
Does he have the tools (long, athletic) to be a good defender? Absolutely, but the fact is that he’s struggled on that side of the ball so far, regardless of the role he’s played. Whether a 6th-man or starter, he was playing big minutes at his natural positions (SG-SF), so we’ve got a pretty good idea of what he CURRENTLY is… that’s not to say he won’t develop.
As I said earlier, I’m a big fan of Fernandez, especially if he can continue to hit 40% of his 3-pointers and be a way to get Rubio to sign. If we could get Fernandez, I’d start Rubio and Fernandez immediately together in the backcourt.
Just brainstorming. If Rubio is coming to town, we’ll want to get a long, athletic, skilled big man to run with him, the way Pau Gasol does in Spain.
I doubt the Blazers would take that either unless they believe Love can be a breakout star (he does fit better with Roy). And we’re division rivals, so that hurts the chances too.
Still, they’d get those two first rounders. And if Rubio commits to playing here, I’d be willing to include Flynn in that deal rather than Gomes and Smith.
But just throwing ideas out there. I think if we have a reasonable chance to get Fernandez then we HAVE to take it. It would do so much for us on and off the court.
Portland doesn’t need cap relief. As evidenced by them making a run at Hedo they have plenty of space right now. What they need is a point guard. If you build a package around Flynn you might be able to get there. We may be able to get Outlaw as well since they don’t seem to crazy about his contract but I don’t see how we get Aldridge. He’s their second best player.
Does Outlaw stink or something, I thought he looked pretty good when they played the Wolves last year, but was wondering why nobody answered the other day when I asked about him. Most of you guys know more about him than I do. What are your thoughts?
jama-
Good thinking. Cap relief would certainly appeal to them, especially with Darius Miles’ huge contract sitting on their books this year and the impending free agencies of Roy and Aldridge.
Frankly I really don’t think that deal gets done without Flynn involved. If I was Kahn I’d be asking him if he gets on a plane for Minneapolis if Flynn is gone and Fernandez is here. If he says yes I make it happen.
If somehow we got a deal to get Fernandez, Outlaw, and Aldridge then Al really doesn’t have a place on this team. Rubio through Aldridge are all athletic and would work best in a run and gun offense. Not exactly Al’s forte.
Blazer fans hate Outlaw for some reason. Don’t really know why.
Either way though, I’m sure the Blazers would prefer to move him considering Hedo is probably coming in and Martell Webster is going to be healthy.
Brainfreeze -
Outlaw is pretty decent. He’s put up numbers pretty similar to Gomes and he’s younger. I think the blazer’s are not crazy about his contract and they seem higher on Batum who I believe is cheaper… though I could be wrong on that.
I think it’s going to have to be a package of Martell Webster and Rudy Fernandez. Webster has three guaranteed years left on his contract plus a team option.
Flynn and Songalia for Rudy Fernandez and Martell Webster… it sure balances out our roster, but I have to admit that we’d be sending the player with the highest upside (Flynn) away in that deal, which I normally don’t like to do.
But it leaves us with two athletic wings who can each play both SG and SF.
I’ll happily deal Flynn is we can guarantee Rubio will play, and it gets us Fernandez.
Lot of “ifs” there, but the payoff would be huge if it works out.
Foo,
I think I’d make that deal in a second. Not only does it give up two wings who are versatile and athletic but they work perfectly with Rubio’s style.
Of course I only do this deal if it guarantees that Rubio suits up for us this season.
Though even if Fernandez doesn’t guarntee Rubio I’d still see what it would take to get him.
mark - Outlaw’s got an expiring contract at only $4M… I don’t think The Blazers have a beef with that contract.
If anything they’d have a problem with Webster’s contract. I’m still puzzled as to why they signed him to that.
Interesting story from The Statesman-Journal… has another possible Spaniard-to-Minnesota thought…
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20090625/UPDATE/90625045
Thanks mark.
Maybe it sounded like I was interested in an Outlaw for Rubio swap. I just meant as part of a possible deal for Rubio, or now maybe Flynn.
Hmm, Claver and Fernandez?
I vote we go out, trade for those two, both Gasol’s and Sergio Rodriguez while we’re at it. Then bring back Jorge Garbajosa, Raul Lopez, and Juan Carlos Navarro.
Poof! 9 man rotation, all of them Spaniards XD
Foo,
My bad, just saw the $4M and didn’t see it was expiring.
In regards to the article you posted. I’m a little sceptical that he was drafted for the Wolves, wouldn’t we have heard about that? Unless of course… we were planning on trading Flynn to them.
In regards to Claver, everything I’ve heard about him seems to point to him not being ready for the NBA yet and probably spending another year or two in europe.
Anybody know where Kahn currently is? Is he in Portland?
I don’t know. Jerry would. He’s apparently on a cross country tour as part of the coaching search, whatever that means.
Rumor was that Kahn wanted to interview Monty Williams so I’d guess he’ll make his way to Portland at somepoint.
I’m not sure what all the moving pieces might be in any Blazers trade, but they only have 10 guaranteed contracts for next year and The Wolves have 15. They are also jam-packed with swing-men, where we are very thin. They need a PG, we have several. The Blazers have a great 3-man post rotation, but nobody else (unless you think Dante Cunningham will make even a partial dent). We have plenty of bigs to offer.
So we could definitely afford to balance out both of our rosters with a deal of some sort.
If Portland and Minnesota can get over the intra-division rival thing, there are a lot of elements that make sense for a swap.
Foo,
I agree that the only thing that would hold up a trade apart from Pritchard or Kahn not liking the deal would be the rivalry. But frankly if your helping each other out I don’t see what’s the big deal. They have too much of what we want and we have too much of what they want. I feel like they should be able to make it work.
Ok, I thought I read somewhere that Kahn still goes back to Portland because his family still lives there.
I really believe Kahn is going to unload at least two, probably, three, maybe four of our forwards by the end of the summer. Smith and Gomes, maybe Madsen, maybe Songaila, and either Thomas or Cardinal (he’ll want to save one of them….probably Thomas….for the trade deadline).
That’s true, he still has a house there and his wife owns an ad agency there.
My guess on the Claver pick: Portland moved up a couple of spots to have a better shot at one of the second-tier PGs and then got burned when all of picks 17 through 21 went PG. The next best at 22 was probably Calathes or Mills. Then they just bailed and took a guy who could stay in Europe.
I wonder if there isn’t a deal in place with Portland with the contingency that the Blazers sign Turkoglu? Hmmmmm….
I doubt it. The Blazers weren’t informed of Rudy’s issue until this afternoon, by the looks of it.
Nah, I think the Blazer knew what was going on. It just wasn’t reported on until now.
Ricky Rubio’s Nuclear Option
July 1, 2009 5:05 PM
Already it seems a thousand articles have been written about the intricate dance unfolding between Ricky Rubio and the Minnesota Timberwolves.
One thing that really impresses me: Minnesota GM David Kahn has skillfully removed the Rubio camp’s biggest threat. In any normal situation they would have said give us what we want or we’ll stay in Europe. But before the music even really started, right there on draft night, Kahn was assuring everyone that Rubio might stay in Europe and that’s just fine. The Timberwolves, he said, are more than willing to wait.
That sends the message to everyone that the Timberwolves are ready for good offers, but not bad ones.
The Rubio camp does still have a big hammer, though, and it’s one that has almost never been used.
Rubio can sit out a year, and re-enter next year’s draft.
The way the collective bargaining agreement works, the Timberwolves hold Rubio’s NBA rights so long as they make him an offer, and he plays professional ball in some FIBA-sanctioned league, which is just about all of the leagues he’d consider playing in.
But if he doesn’t play professionally anywhere, then he can be right back in next year’s draft.
You can only do this once — no one can be drafted more than twice.
Clearly, this is an illogical move. To leave his Spanish team, he’d still have a buyout, only now coupled with almost no income at all. (Barnstorming Nike tour, anyone?)
But he could certainly get himself some elite basketball training, maybe a year of being a college student, followed by a career with a team more to his liking. It might at least be worth threatening that, as a way to imbue the Timberwolves with some urgency.
You know what would be just hilarious, though? If Rubio actually did sit out the year, and somehow or another the Timberwolves drafted him again.
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-42-5/Ricky-Rubio-s-Nuclear-Option.html
That’d be a lot of money Rubio would cost himself just to not play for the wolves. Probably wouldn’t be a wise move.
Posted much earlier but it’s in moderation. So here a updated version.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Anyone Interested in this guy at center?
Tyson Chandler (i know salary/injury issues)
Seems like a center who would compliment AL and Love. Plus if RandR shows up (?) he could average 10 dunks a night. Plus can run with the kids, 26 with 8 year in the league.
Also here’s a interesting link on Ellington.
And if we could move some of the forward mass for Rudy I’d be in. Did you see him give Kobe some Biznas in the olympics?
Would not want Chandler. Too old, too expensive, too fragile, in general just to “too”.
Tyson Chandler is 26. If that’s the standard we’re using for “too old”, that’s pretty restrictive…
well too old for what Kahn has planned for the wolves.
I think Chandler’s young enough, but way too expensive. I’d rather pick up Jerome Jordan in the middle of next year’s draft.
Rudy’s agent has publicly said now that if the Blazers sign Hedo, Rudy will demand a trade or force a buyout
“Tyson Chandler is 26. If that’s the standard we’re using for “too old”, that’s pretty restrictive…”
26 isn’t old, but it kind of is when his knees have as much mileage on them as his do.
I love Rudy. Been wanting him for a while, and certainly since draft day. The problem is, I don’t think Portland will want Flynn as a centerpiece. They aren’t developing, they want to win, and are looking into more veteran PGs. Besides, even though Bayless was disappointing last year, I’m not sure they are ready to punt on him as the “future” guy.
They will need to do something on the wing, and it might mean moving Fernandez.
It’s hard for me to see a match, unless we want to start talking about trading Kevin Love, which would require a bigger deal.
In the meantime, my understanding of Fernandez’ situation is that he doesn’t actually have a ton of leverage. He can’t play in Europe unless the Blazers let him out of his deal. There is no buyout. He would have to just not play.
Toronto radio is reporting the Raptors are taking themselves out of the running for Hedo, since they’d have to give up Marion, Parker, and 4 or 5 international players to acquire him.
He’s almost guaranteed to go to Portland now.
Get on the phones Mr Kahn.
Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva have both agreed to sign with the Pistons, so that takes Detroit out of the running for Hedo too.
Well, that’s extremely disappointing. Ben Gordon was Favorite FA. He only signed for 55mil over 5 years, wow, expected higher, if we could have got him for that much. This was really crushing, but in realization, we would have had to make room for him, create a little more cap this year to afford him, and probably take a hit on defense with him, but come on, instantly would have made team better.
Flynn
Ben G. with Ellington coming off the bench, maybe getting at the 3 some times depending who we play, in limited form or inbetween.
Gomes + his back ups in Craig, maybe Bring Carney back
K. Love
Al Jefferson.
have money in FA next year still left and add rest pieces we need to majorly contend, if not this year. Plus then Rubio really could have been a asset for trade/create salary, rather then hurt salary.
Some may disagree, but most should agree, it would win. But it don’t matter what your take is, because it’s not happening and now is old news.
Just to Mention- Now Detroit’s looking pretty dang good, back in contention, if they find good coach, now that, that positions looking pretty attempting again. Also Gordon wanting to come to Mpls would have been a problem too :).
Jerry….any discussion in FO about making an aggressive move for Rudy Fernandez? He’s unhappy about Blazers’ push for Hedo and would be a perfect compliment to Rubio in our backcourt.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4300407
They were fantastic together on Spanish national team and it would help with Rubio’s transition to MN and NBA. I’d trade anyone not named Jefferson, Love and Rubio for him…including future picks. Might need to pull in a third team as Portland is looking for a veteran PG, but we could offer Flynn to the team (Sixers…Andre Miller) given up the vet to Portland.
Fernandez also fills a huge need for us at SG and he’s young. This is one instance in which I’d slighly overpay.
We have assets…Kahn needs to use them. Be aggressive here.
I just want the situation resolved with Rubio…As a Minnesota fan I am tired of waiting for Farve and see the same thing happening with Rubio…..I guess as long as we get them both, I’ll be alright!
I agree that we should make a strong push to acquire Fernandez! I stated we should try to get him in a previous thread to make MN more appealing to Rubio. I myself would send Flynn and a few big men to Portland, or a third team, but I just dont see Kahn pulling that trigger. He has already made too big of a push for a Rubio/Flynn backcourt, and insists he will not trade either. I hope something gets done, but not holding my breath…
looks like Kahn is going to be interviewing Monty Williams.
I agree that we might need to find a 3rd team to make a deal with Portland don’t really see them wanting Flynn, with Bayless on the roster, I wonder if Pheonix might want to get involved with Nash if they are committed to starting over.
I was actually pretty happy to see Detroit sign both Gordon and Villanueva… that takes one more of the good teams from a few years ago out of long-term contention.
The reason? Neither of these guys play ANY defense. I know both of them can score, especially Gordon. But you can’t have two key pillars of your team who don’t defend.
I was just reading Ric Bucher’s Top FA story and what type of team each FA best fits. He said both Gordon and Villanueva need to play with four other strong defenders or the team will get killed.
Detroit’s got talent, no doubt, so they’ll be relevant, but I can’t see them ever even making the Eastern Conference semi-finals for the next 4-5 years with that roster make-up.
They just secured 4-5 years of being a 6-8 seed and getting eliminated in the first round.
Brandon - Until further notice, just assume that Kahn doesn’t really plan to use Rubio and Flynn together in the back-court. He has to say that. Further, neither Flynn nor Rubio would be happy in that situation.
So don’t assume Kahn likes that tandem just because he said so.
That link on Wayne Ellington that deal wid it posted this afternoon has some interesting nuggets in it… Here are a few of the Q&As from that link:
>
>
>
Are you looking to come in and be a starter for the Timberwolves?
WE: That is definitely what I am looking for. I feel it’s a great opportunity.
What’s up with the Wolves choosing point guards Ricky Rubio and Jonny Flynn with the fifth and sixth picks in the draft?
WE: They are two great point guards and with Ricky’s situation it’s kind of difficult. We don’t know what will happen. We are definitely happy to have both of them. We have Jonny for sure and possibly Ricky.
What are your goals as a rookie?
WE: My next goal is to possibly be one of the best rookies and be on the All-Rookie Team and play in the Rookie-Sophomore Challenge.
So now that Ben Gordon is in Detroit what is Detroit going to do with Hamilton. They are probably going to want to move him to the west, maybe a trade with Portand involving Rudy Fernandez and filler(sign and trade Frye) for Hamilton? I hope Portland doesn’t get Turk because the Division is already starting to look really tough for the next 5-6 years.
-Utah is always going to have D.Will
-Denver will be good for a while
-Portland might be the best in Division with Turk
-OKC will be very good in 2 years with Durant/Westbtrook/Harden
-TWolves don’t know yet, lol
Ellington and Flynn sound like good kids, can’t wait to see them get out there and play
Do those Detroit signings impact any possible deals we could have with The Pistons?
Foo-thought you’d be hyped on that one. Seeing as you were calling out 2nd team all Rookie earlier.
Yeah here’s Rudy’s Money
$1,165,320 09/10
$1,246,680 10/11 team option
$2,180,443 11/12 team option
$3,187,80 12/13 qualifying offer
Seem like we should be able to swing something there? Not sure we have the pieces they would want in return. I think the three way seems the way it may work?!
Not sure if Miller is it but i’m all in.
Not really. Detroit has almost nothing of value to us as it is. Hamilton is a good player, but too old for our team. The rest of the guys are either no good or players the Pistons will keep.
And don’t overestimate Rudy’s value guys. Flynn alone would be overpaying for him. Fernandez is a good player…potentially a great player….but he’s also a #24 pick and a guy who doesn’t have much value in total to the Blazers to begin with.
I love the idea of bringing in Rudy Fernandez, but as my proposal above said, I’d do Jonny Flynn and flotsam for Fernandez and Martell Webster.
No way would I do Flynn straight up for Fernandez.
Whats with Rubio (+agent) and Rudy complaining when things don’t go exactly their way? It is a bit concerning.
Rudy I think has a legitimate complaint here. He went way out of his way to play for Portland last year and now they’re practically shoving him out the door.
did I see where Foo felt that Ellington would make second team all rookie???? wow what are you smoking? He is a stand still shooter who can’t create his own shot vs good college defenders…. Flynn second yes. Wayne no chance.
Well so much for the Grizzlies pursuing David Lee from the Knicks. The Grizz just traded Q Richardson to the Clips for Zach Randolph. I was kind of hoping we might look at moving Rubio to the Knicks, Lee going to the Griz, and Rudy Gay coming to the Wolves in some sort of three-team package.
Here’s an idea that Chad Ford likes, not that Kahn does or doesn’t. This is who you’d trade Flynn for, not Portland’s third-stringer.
Jason (Minneapolis)
Since the Kings were high on Flynn predraft, would they consider a deal including Kevin Martin postdraft? Maybe Flynn, Pekovic, a 2010 #1 (Wolves will probably have three) plus expirings for Martin? Kings get a true PG plus significant cap room in 2010 and Wolves save face by getting the scoring wing to play with Rubio.
Chad Ford (1:16 PM)
That’s not a bad idea and one that’s possible … I do think the Kings would move Martin for the right offer and Tyreke Evans is more of a two … Get on the phone Khaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn!
I don’t want to trade Flynn, trade Rubio before he takes a 3 year deal in Europe and we lose his rights, that would be terrible if he plays 3 or 4 years for a few million each year to pay his buyout then signs a huge deal with the Knicks
Terrible and exceptionally far-fetched.
Pissing away all that money just to not play out a rookie deal with the Wolves would be cutting off his nose to spite his face.
I know, I may have exagerated but it is a possibility even though a very, very small one
C-Note
He can’t do that. Not unless he wants to sit out an entire year… and then he’d go into the draft again. If he plays in the NBA he plays for us, or a team of our choice.
Neumms -
Fernandez and Martin are pretty similar. If Rudy were the only decent player on an otherwise terrible team like Martin, he’s probably put up numbers just like him. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have Martin but Rudy is close to being as good, if not as good, he’s younger and he’s cheaper.
and since Portland has a glut of wing type players we may be able to get him for less than we’d have to fork over for Martin.
I think we lose his rights after 3 years and then we he came back in the draft no team would take him unless he said for sure he’d play for them, like NY or La
I would Love Fernandez. But before I’d trade Flynn for him, I’d need to KNOW that Rubio would be here in less than two years as a result.
Also: Just saw that Trevor Ariza likely won’t resign with the Lakers. I loved him during LA’s title run, any chance we could get his perimeter D and three-point shooting over here? He’s young, but also has the experience of playing a key part on a championship team. Could we offer him more than the MLE?
If a Flynn for Fernandez trade Brings Rubio, and we sign Ariza:
Rubio/Telfair
Fernandez/Ellington
Ariza/Brewer/Gomes
Love/Songaila/C. Smith
Jefferson/E. Thomas
Our perimeter would be pretty much set for a long time. We have the virtuoso point guard, three athletic defenders in Rudy, Ariza, Brewer, and three outside shooters in Rudy, Ariza, and Ellington.
Add a shot-blocking backup center, and let that core grow!
I know where just brainstorming but… Why on earth would you trade Jonny Flynn, a possible stud who’s happy to play for the Wolves and a perfect fit for the team, for a whining Spaniard who hasn’t done anything in the league? All for the hope we make Rubio happy? And what if that doesn’t work?
Let me state again. You do not trade Flynn under any circumstances right now. Wait and see what you’ve got. Same goes for Rubio.
Those are the kinds of deals you live to regret.
Rodman- I agree with Flynn but who knows if we will ever see what we have in Rubio, its getting kind of ridiculous that it takes this long to figure out the buyout, if doesn’t want to come here then he should quit hiding and say it, either way he needs to say what he wants to do, its been a week and he still hasn’t said what he wants to do. If its because he is working on the buyout then tell us thats what your doing, don’t start talking about other teams in Europe
C-Note you are really being a broken record with this buyout thing. I realize this is an instant gratification society but heading into this pick EVERYONE knew this would be a complex situation.
You’re talking about an overseas contract dispute in the notoriously slow and corrupt Spanish legal system paired with a team desperate to get whatever return they can from their fleeing star, who have complicated matters even further by getting Spain’s version of the IRS involved.
It’s a giant honking mess, which is part of why one of the best talents in the draft fell down to 5.
We’ve got a long way to go until the season starts, and even longer until this team has a chance to be competitive. Like Kahn says there’s no hurry here.
It will get resolved but it will take time.
The buyout was always going to be a concern for any team but the “I’m not coming to NBA” started when Wolves drafted him. When you hear 5 year rebuilding plan and look at roster why would you want to come. Reading the Washington papers they feel they fleeced Kahn. In a historically bad draft to have 2 top 6 picks is not all that special. Wizards got 2 players that will play a major role on a playoff team and we got a drama queen who won’t come to cold Mpls…
logical thinker - I’ve heard the same thing from the Wolves side, got the consensus #2 player in the draft for two guys that aren’t a part of their future plans. Two teams in different places with completely different perspectives.
Funny how Rubio is suddenly a “drama queen” when he hasn’t made a statement beyond: i want to play in the NBA, would play for free, for anyone who will give me minutes, yet all that is overlooked for his “its too cold” comment that has been completely twisted out of context (it was a joke).
logical - second comment not directed at you, looks like thats the papers take. Just a general comment on how quick so many on this board are to turn something in to nothing to create arguments against Rubio.
nothing in to something….sorry
[i]Why on earth would you trade Jonny Flynn, a possible stud who’s happy to play for the Wolves and a perfect fit for the team, for a whining Spaniard who hasn’t done anything in the league?[/i]
The problem with this is: why would Portland trade a young, inexpensive player who scored in double figures as a rookie and shot 40% from 3 for a 54 win team for an undersized point guard who hasn’t shown he can even play in the NBA and might be no better than Jerryd Bayless?
See, I can play too. I’d be thrilled if we could get Fernandez with Flynn as the main piece, but Portland won’t go for it.
Logical thinker - I appreciate your response to my “Ellington 2nd-team All-Rookie” take… because I want folks to remember that I said it.
I don’t take any offense to your disagreement, but I just think that opportunity + a high-level NBA skill (his shooting) + a weak rookie class = 2nd-team All-Rookie Selection for Ellington.
And, BTW to repeat, I don’t believe that necessarily makes him an elite player. But I believe he’ll get minutes (pending another major move) and average 12-14 ppg… nothing special, but enough to get anybody on the 2nd-team All-Rookie squad.
Maybe nothing maybe the start of a miserable ride where the player holds up team and forces way out. We’ve all seen that many times. If not a drama queen why not come to Mpls for press conference? Wolves tried to spin it that he was working on buyout. That was BS. Rubio was in NY and made a sneak trip here on Saturday. Lets just be honest in what is happening.
Foo- At his spot you’ve got to be able to handle ball and make some plays. He can shoot it but can’t create his own shot off dribble. If he and Flynn are on the floor together and they leave Wayne alone to shoot, that is one dumb team. By the way if Ellington plays alot Philly’s 9 win futility mark is in danger.
Uh Eric… Last I checked we only have Flynn as a good point guard. The Rubio situation is very far from resolved. You want to go Telfair this year?
Wasn’t Rubio’s buyout set to increase to the 8M range as of July 1st? Surprised that hasn’t been more newsworthy the last few days.
“Uh Eric… Last I checked we only have Flynn as a good point guard. The Rubio situation is very far from resolved. You want to go Telfair this year?”
Well, that’s an entirely different point than the one I was responding to. Do I want to go to Telfair this year? No. But 2 things:
1. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility, or even all that unlikely, that Telfair will be better than either Flynn or Rubio this year.
2. More importantly, I assume that Kahn knows more about the Rubio situation than us. Obviously, the trade becomes less attractive if Rubio doesn’t come this year. I think I’d still do it, but I’m not a big Flynn fan.
Those of you have warned against blindly falling in love with Rubio need to do the same with Flynn. Let’s not forget that he was planning on coming back for a junior season because he wasn’t going to get drafted all that high. Then people started to recall that Big East tourney game against UConn and he shot up the draft board.
He got picked sixth essentially because of one classic game, some good workouts, and a great personality. If you recall on draft night they said the one big flaw he had right now was his decision making.
Don’t forget that for this entire season Rubio has been the consenus 2nd best player in the draft.
mark you might want to get a clue. One game my ass, there is a reason Flynn went 6th. Rubio consensus #2? Well he got picked at 5 so there was no “consensus” as you say. MORON
Bryan,
There’s a difference between being the best player, and being the best player for a specific team.
And how many Syracuse games did you watch last year? I’m not saying Flynn isn’t going to be a good player but most fans fall in love with a player based off of one great nationally televised game or because of a good NCAA tournament.
The point is Flynn wasn’t considered a lottery pick until after everybody saw him play 67 minutes in a 6 over time game.
Bryan - Rubio was the consensus #2 for pretty much the entire season. What are you getting in a huff about ?
First of all beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many teams had Flynn ranked 12-20, some top 10. He at worse will be a great backup who’ll have a 14 year career. However decision making is one area he needs improvement. Speaking of Rubio how many of you have actually seen him play a whole game? It was hard to get game footage of him. Have to jump thru hoops to get full games. Highlights are so misleading.
Is Kevin McHale running the Grizzlies now? Giving up an expiring contract for $33 million worth of Zach Randolph the next two years?
Sean - Grizz need someone next to Gasol and the Clips need to get rid of a big…whats there to figure ?
Plus…its the guy McHale fleeced…repeat…its the guy McHale fleeced.
Keep telling yourself that, Swan.
Picking up Z-Bo is a hilariously bad move for the Griz though.
Have to agree picking up Z-Bo is a bit confusing.
Logical Thinker -
Agreed that finding games of him playing in Spain are pretty difficult to find. I was able to see a few of his games in the Olympics and there are places where you can find big chunks of the Gold Medal game online.
Flynn wasn’t ranked high because he’s small. That’s it. Same reason Eric Gordon wasn’t ranked high.
If you saw both players play at all, you could easily tell that were one of best players on the floor.
Not real rocket science here.
All I can say is you doubters will fall in love with Flynn by November.
By the way, I mention Eric Gordon just because I figure Big Ten fans would have seen him more than Flynn.
I’m a Big East fan personally.
Rodman -
I agree that Flynn is a magnetic player who you can’t help watch. My original post was just reminding people that you can’t just say Rubio is the only one that could be traded. There’s a potential market for Flynn as well and maybe he’s the right one to move.
I’ll admit Swan, I like the Love trade a lot better now that we turned Mike Miller into Ricky Rubio.
Rod - Kahn gets an assist from McHale on that !
I hear you Mark. As I’ve said before, I just want to hold onto these guys and see what we have. For all we know Flynn is the next CP3. And Rubio is the next Nash.
Or not.
To me it’s all about getting superstars. We need a superstar leading our team. I don’t think Al will ever be that kind of leader. My hope is the Flynn or Rubio turn out to be that guy. That’s why taking both of them was brilliant to me. Why settle on a need player, when we are looking to find our superstar? We need all the chances we can get.
Leadership is the key thing for me. No doubt Fernandez would be a great player to have, but I just don’t see him being our leader.
Gendo - Everyone fleeces Memphis. I can’t remember the last deal they made in their own favor.
Swan,
I’m giving the assist to Hoiberg. 
Hoiberg wanted Mayo !
That Zach Randolph trade is a mystery to me. After seeing Mark Blount and Marko Jaric get traded, and now Zack Randolph and his giant contract get traded twice, it goes to show anyone can get traded in the NBA.
Rodman,
The more accurate statement would be that as long as Chris Wallace is running an NBA team anyone can be traded.
Swan,
Don’t spoil it for me. I’m not capable of giving McHale credit for anything!
I will say that the gutting of this team was one of the most impressive things I’ve even seen. Blount, Jaric, Hassell, etc. It was masterful.
The gathering of talent here? Not so much.
Gets rid of Pau Gasol for Expiring Contract of Kwame…takes on Randolph for an expiring contract of Richardson…
Takes on Walker, Doleac, Jaric and gives up Miller, Caridnal and Love to get Mayo…
Miller is half what it takes to get Rubio, a guy that Memphis still passed on.
People thought McHale was bad !?!?!??!
If your Chris Wallace don’t you have to include Jaric in that trade?
I actually think Randolph could fill a need in Memphis and getting out of a big market can only help him. That being said you have to throw one of your own bad contracts back at LA.
Memphis starting lineup
Conley
Mayo
Gay
Randolph
Thabeet/Gasol
That’s a better starting lineup than what the Wolves currently have.
The one thing I get back to is Kahn saying a 5 year plan is what the Wolves are on. Were we not in the middle of rebuilding plan anyway. The one month the team was healthy was January and they went 10-4 without Brewer. Mchale was coach of the month and Big Al was player of the month. The plan looked in place then. When your top player and rebounder goes down the team will struggle. my point is this new rebuild features who???? Flynn, Rubio Ellington all not proven. Don’t drink the Kahn kool-aid too soon. I looked for full games on Rubio to get a real feel for him. saw the olympic game also not too impressed.
jama — Randolph fits from an on-the-court perspective, but putting his attitude in that locker room is a disater waiting to happen. He hasn’t been a team guy anywhere.
Rubio was 17 at the time of the Olympics. People seem to forget that Rubio should vastly improve as he gets bigger and works on a jump shot.
logical — When did Kahn say we were on a five-year plan? All I’ve heard him say is that this team is going to be rebuilt over the next 17 months.
January was a mirage. The Wolves played a bunch of teams that had injured players and the wheels were already falling off before Jefferson got hurt.
The Jefferson injury really sucked, not only because it obviously hurt the team alot, but also because it didn’t let us really see what we had.
Sean
I completely agree. If I were Memphis I would instruct Randolph to avoid any contact with his teammates off the court. He is probably a team cancer and with Memphis being young that is definitely a risk.
I’m not saying it was a good trade but I can see why they were interested in Randolph. I still think the talent of their starting 5 is better than the Wolves right now.
Logical Thinker is risking running afoul of the FTC for false advertising.
I don’t know about mirage, I saw a team playing hard and learning how to win. The team was young last year during that time. I assume the 17 month plan includes the cap room that was in place, set up by old regime, what free agent of any stature will come to a team that MAY win 15 games next year. Not being realistic if that is the plan. News flash to all: Minnesota is not a destination for high caliber free agents. Gotta win some games to have a chance for a free agent!!!!
Hahaha! Sean, always the optimist. I would hate to have him as my doctor and he had to explain to me that I had a 3 in 4 chance of pulling through.
When all the money goes to the Bron’s, Bosh’s & Wade’s one of the few teams able to offer up some cash will be us. Players will play anywhere for the cash.
Even if Minnesota isn’t a free agency destination (and I don’t believe limping to 30 wins with the awful mix McHale assembled would change that), cap space has more use than just as a vehicle to sign free agents.
It also allows Minnesota to take on contracts via trade. They can absorb a bad contract or two in the short term in exchange for another building block.
Chad Ford is not thinking straight, Flynn, and a #1 for Martin. No way i do that, Martin can’t stay healthy and he is an undersized SG (he is a lot like Curry). I like the Ariza idea, if he has any interest coming to Minny. It would have to be for more than the mid level(thats what he is asking for, the Lakers are offering the mid level) maybe 3 years, team option for a 4th year and if we pick up the 4th a player option for the 5th. That might sway him to sign. That would give us an athletic 2-3 that plays defense. But i think the Wolves will add through trades rather than FA signings, the FA class is old and weak in talent.
Arenal, stop posting using my name.
And Kevin Martin isn’t undersized….he’s 6′7″….but I wouldn’t trade Flynn for him either.
I’ll take Joe Johnson summer or 2010.
Joe Johnson ? There has to be better than that….
If Rubio does sign overseas for 2-3 years that would give the Wolves a chance to get better and be more attractive for Rubio to play here. Not to mention allowing him to sharpen his jumper and add some bulk to his frame, which i still believe has to happen.
Logical — Sure, there were some good things that happened in January. But why should we believe that the 14 games in January is the “real” Timberwolves versus the other 68 games? Or the 3-15 record the Wolves had with McHale and Jefferson in December and February? January is the outlier, not the trend.
Well, unless you think we can land Dwyane Wade or something.
Joe Johnson is a guy who will put up 20-5-5 and can shoot and put the ball on the floor. Very ideal next to both Flynn and Rubio.
Bryan your right about Martin, i thought he was 6-3. I just want to see what kind of leadership and juice Flynn can bring to the team, because we are sorely lacking vocal leadership on this team.
Bryan - Joe Johnson would cost too much…I’d rather make a play for Al Harrington or something…there was another name on the list that I just forgot…
Its just too bad that Gomes is so inconsistant because the guy has some serious talent. He could be a solid starting 3 if he could perform night in and night out.
Isn’t Al Harrington a PF?
You’d rather have Al Harrington than Joe Johnson?
….are you smoking something?
Brian - We have no cap room this offseason. We can only offer FAs the MLE, or we can do a sign-and-trade.
Joe Johnson is going to demand a max deal. To me he’s not proven he’s that good (though obviously very talented).
Bryan & Brian - Harrington can be a long 3 or thin 4 and has a nice outside shot.
And yes, I’d rather have Harrington at $30 million than Johnson at $60.
Rubio’s Facebook page states “Estoy en Minnesota discutiendo con mi familia y mi carrera de adquisición. | I’m in Minnesota with my family discussing my buyout and career.”
Rubio’s Facebook page has this posting from this morning:
“Estoy en Minnesota discutiendo con mi familia y mi carrera de adquisición. | I’m in Minnesota with my family discussing my buyout and career.”
Jesper:
I think the consensus is that his FB page is fake.
That Spanish sounds like he ran it through babelfish.
This was a quote from Ricky’s dad in an article posted on Canis Hoopus.
“The number 5 and Minnesota is the best thing that could have happened to Ricky”
He’s hardly thins Swan. 250 lbs.
Plus, he’s w whiner.
Plus he’s a tweener.
Plus he sucks.
If Al Harrington is our big free agent catch, then I feel sorry for us. It’d be like watching the team try to hype up Juwan Howard all over again.
The point of having all that cap space is to sign a big name free agent. Why have all that money if you won’t spend it???
And FYI $60 million would be a steal for Joe Johnson.
Johnson will be 29 next season, i’m not shure i’d want to max him out at that age. He will ask for a 5-6 year deal, too long.
I bet the Family likes that Kahn isn’t trying to pull Ricky over here. It makes financial sense to stay over there and avoid a 6 mil buyout and let the Wolves get better.
29’s not bad. Not ideal, but if we’re looking to be a playoff club by 2011, then we’d basically be in the same situation as the Blazers are now trying to sign Hedo.
Plus Johnson’s game isn’t based on athleticism. He’s a shooter, and if we’ve learned anything from guys like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen, shooters remain in from well into their mid-to-late 30s.
Bryan - We’d have to offer JJ too much I think to get him. He isn’t the player I’d want to max out to get. The $30 mil - $60 mil thing was just to illustrate a point. I don’t want to overpay for a role player.
I don’t want Joe Johnson to be our Rashard Lewis (salary wise).
Bryan - “Plus Johnson’s game isn’t based on athleticism. He’s a shooter, and if we’ve learned anything from guys like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen, shooters remain in from well into their mid-to-late 30s.”
Thats not really fair…you picked two of the 3-5 guys EVER who kept playing at basically the same level past the dreaded 30’s+ that were wings.
I like Joe Johnson but not enough to max out on him. At that price you’re actually paying for the ghost of Joe Johnson past, not what you’re probably going from him after year one of that contract.
And Reggie Miller was scoring in the mid-teens the last couple years of his career. Not bad numbers just not $60 mil. numbers.
JOhnson’s not a role player. He’s the franchise player for the Hawks and they’re making the playoffs.
And Shard Lewis got the Magic to the Finals. Although he is overpaid.
But I mean, what are we supposed to do? The only shooting guard free agent better than JJ is Wade, and if it’s Wade or bust, then we’ll bust. The point of free agency is to sign free agents, and if Joe Johnson is the line for role players and overpaid, the basically the only guys available to us are Wade and Bosh.
Johnson’s not a role player right now that is true. But I would think he’s going to want a five year deal. Do you think he’s going to be a franchise player after year two? Perhaps, he will but the sample of players of that age and that skill set is not encouraging.
Would he have to be a franchise player for us? My understanding is that’s what Rubio is for.
Bryan - Then why pay JJ franchise player money ?
Who said we would have to? Do you think anyone’s really going to pay Johnson the same as Wade?
Yup. Wade is gonna get max…then people are going to through insane #’s to the 2nd tier just to get him. I think JJ is going to get max or very very very close to max…I mean injured Arenas got $110 !
If Johnson goes into that range, then we can take ourselves out of the running. But just assuming he’ll go for that much and then not try at all is just naive.
If it’s not Joe Johnson, then we’re talking nothing but bench players really. Kahn’s not saving all this money for Flip Murray you know.
agree with Swan, there are way too many teams clearing cap space right now so they can gear up for next season. What do the teams that don’t get Wade or LeBron do? How can they tell their fan base that we’ve just spent the last two years gutting salaries that it was all for nought. No way, some GM will pay up just so they don’t go home empty handed. And that’s going to be a mistake.
Next year may not be the best time to go free agent fishing. Next year I’ve got a feeling that a lot of second tier players are going to get sick money. Not saying we shouldn’t inquire to see what they want but it’s just a feeling.
From everything we’ve seen from Kahn so far seems to point towards him being all about value. If Joe Johnson is getting 60M then there’s not much value there. Could be you don’t make the big splash next year but wait until 2011. Not sure whose going to be a FA around then but they’ll be fewer teams available to make big contract offers.
Look at the Blazer’s and Pistons. Not saying I agree with how they’re spending their money but there aren’t many teams willing to wade into the FA waters and those two teams are picking everybody up. Just saying maybe 2010 not for us.
Bryan - I guess what I’m saying is try but don’t overspend.
Also, how hard we try should depend on how well we play next year and if Rubio is coming.
Walters report Rubio to stay in Spain for the next two years:
The Minnesota Timberwolves’ top draft pick, Ricky Rubio, 18, will remain in Spain to play for his DKV Joventut basketball team for the remaining two years of his contract rather than try to move to the NBA this season, El Periodico reported today.
The Barcelona newspaper also says Rubio, who was paid $97,000 last season, plans to withdraw his contract lawsuit against DKV Joventut.
There are only a handful of teams with cap room necessary to make a big splash in free agency this year.
As for next year, I think Gendo nailed it earlier. Our role likely isn’t going to be signing free agents, but rather using our cap space to collect players from teams looking to open cap space.
“Walters”
This is where sensible people stop reading.
I agree, don’t overspend. I just think there are players in free agency worth the money.
And actually the Blazers are about to drop some serious coin for Hedo. He’s touring Portland today, so an offer could be on the table by as early as this afternoon.
If walters if correct, I’ll be a very, very disappointed fan….still excited for Flynn, but did you here that roar when we drafted Rubio?!?! I don’t think this is over.
a little birdie told me that Charley Walters is a hack.
So what if Rubio comes over at 20 ? D-Rob was worth the wait for the Spurs…Kukoc for the Bulls…
He’ll be 20…Love 23-24…Al Jeff 25-26…Flynn 22…sounds good to me…
They’re just working to get the buyout amount lowered.
I did check out el periodico and there is a story up there about it. I really don’t believe that this is the end of it. I know his team doesn’t want him to come back so is this like commiting to a game of chicken and you hope the other guy gets off the road? Not sure. Could be a final scare tactic to get his team to lower it.
Sorry, that was from Facial (not Matty).
I’m a little wary that it hasn’t been picked up by the Strib, ESPN, SI, or Marca.com. When it comes from one of those sources I’ll believe it.
Walters is only slightly more accurate than Sid. He obviously didn’t do enough research to realize that Rubio made more than $97K last year.
Agree, Rubio in Spain for 2 years is just a ploy to reduce the buyout
I wouldn’t believe Marca either.
My last comment said it was awaiting moderation. Can you guys see that comment? (About the Rubio situation?)
Don’t see it Rodman. Must have inadvertently triggered the language filter.
I would be very surprised if Rubio played for his old team next year. This is one of those disputes where a settlement with a lowered buyout and release so Rubio could play in the NBA would be best for everyone, including Rubio’s spanish team. Rubio’s spanish team seemed offended by the lawsuit, so dropping the suit makes negotiations more likely to work.
Think Joventut must mean something bad in a different language.
All I said was this seems like a negotiation ploy to me…
DKV wants Rubio here this year. They need that buyout money to stay afloat.
Those of you who feel that Rubio is a “franchise ‘ player…. What in the world are you basing that on ???? The full games I’ve seen don’t show that at all….. Not even close. His shot is poor he’s frail and he throws as many passes to the opponent as his teammates. He is flashy but what do you see that I’m missing?
He’s 18 and can play sweet D.
Where do people get this impression he’s weak? 17 year olds don’t play in Olympic gold medal games against Kobe freakin Bryant if they’re weak.
my only knock on JJ, besides his age, is his 3point shooting is a little low (sub 40% the last few years). but, if we can pair him with a Flynn or Rubio who can get him a shot along with a low-post threat like Al getting him the ball outside, he’ll be solid for us.
I actually think we should make a run at Ariza. reading the scoutting report on him, a strong defender and athletic guy who can run on the break with Flynn or to dunk or hit a trailing Ellington for 3 sounds good to me - we could sign him probably at 5-6/year for 3-4 years and not have to give up any assets.
and “weak” players don’t run the point with their left hand after their dominant hand got busted up in the first half.
Medschool - You’ll have to remember JJ doesn’t have ANY help in Hotlanta and probably always has a hand in his face, and is forced to shoot more.
Ariza would be fine by me !
logical just getting rises out of people.
Rubio is young, but gets into a lot of lanes, is quick, can stay in front of just about anyone, and is long enough to give players fits. He will develop some more bulk if/when he hits the gym (who knows, he might grow another inch or 2 as well). he finds just about anyone, anywhere on the court, and I’ve not seen a better no-look pass since stockton.
Sign n trade Cardinal & Mad Dog for Ariza and give him $7 mil a year…
Swan
which is why I mentioned he’d do a lot better with a low-post threat in Al and a stud pg finding him his shot and taking some attention away
Med - He is too expensive for that role ! He’s a guy who is gonna get $10+ a year. I’d rather make a play for Ariza & 7-8 mil over that.
medschoolmatt
The only problem with that is sadly we don’t have any evidence that if the ball goes down to Al that he has the ability or the desire to find an open shooter.
I am curious why the Twolves arent in the Ariza sweepstakes. he’s just the type of guy we need, we could get him for a little more than the mid-level, which is pretty much all the other teams in the race can match.
Med - If we did a sign & trade with expiring contracts we could offer him more….
Over at Canis Hoopus that posted an article that essentially stated that in the coming days Rubio and his people will drop the lawsuit against his team. For them that was what needed to happen before they’d negotiate with Rubio.
Could mean that Rubio ultimately goes back to Spain but it leads me to believe that his team is open to lowering this… hopefully to about $3M
Swan
whose too expensive? I’ve only talked about JJ and Ariza…
Mark
Al will pass when he has an open shooter who a) can actually make the shot, and b) will take it. when Miller was actually shooting the ball, he had no problem passing it to him. he lost faith in his teammates when they were regularly turning in 3-18 shooting nights (or 1-6 nights in the case of Miller).
We can’t offer more than the mid-level for Ariza. Rubio staying with DKV makes sense but Walters is the Worst reporter in the state and is almost always wrong.
Swan
I’d rather spend the extra 2 mill/year and get him without trading assets. I believe we can get something for Cardinal’s expiring (and others).
Jerry what do we have to do to get some KLove trade rumors going?
If it’s going to be catty around here let’s make it about something other than Rubio.
Medschool,
I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing in this kid. How many games have you seen? Kahn’s not going to be in the free agent market without a coach and staff. There’s too many unknowns for agents and players. I don’t see us landing Ariza.
Brian
we are still below the cap (although pretty close). if needed, we can trade or buyout some guys who are expiring and make it work.
Walters article is misguided becausae he jumped the gun big time. He saw Ricky dropping his lawsuit as a logical progression towards him going back to DKV. I think most others believe that it’s the logical progression towareds them negotiating a buyout that makes everybody happy.
TRADE FOR RUDY FERNANDEZ from Portland. Wolves would have an exciting Spanish backcourt and it would entice Rubio to sign, now. I watch Rudy all year, he’s a great talent and would be the starting #2 as sson as he reported.
Rudy is currently pissed at Blazers pursuit if Hedo, is threatening going back to Europe and best of all he’s cheap as he’s on his rookie contract.
Med - JJ too expensive…I don’t think we can just offer more the the MLE tho…I don’t think we’re under the cap…
logical
not many full games, but the guy is a walking highlight reel. maybe I am playing him up a bit (he has the potentail for it though), but you are also downplaying many of his abilities.
How about a simple… he’d be fun to watch.
Amen to that Rodman, and after two years that be greatly appreciated.
“Jerry what do we have to do to get some KLove trade rumors going?”
Jerry what do we have to do to get some Gendo trade rumors going ?
Can’t we trade him to a Clippers blog or something…
No, if anyone is going to get overpaid, it’s Ariza. He’s already turned down the Lakers’ offer, which probably means he wants $7-8 million a year. Waaaaayyyyy too much for basically a poor man’s James Posey.
Corey Brewer can be Trevor Ariza at a fraction of the cost.
Bryan - But Ariza can play D…JJ can’t.
Plus I’d drool at having:
Ariza, Brewer, Ellington, Rubio & Flynn as our back court guys.
Outside of Ellington all can defend !
Yup…I just talked myself into wanting this to happen immediately.
Johnson’s a better defender than people realize.
And Ariza can’t shoot, dribble or pass anywhere near as good as Ariza can. I mean all you have to do is look at their career accomplishments to see that they’re not even on the same planet.
Keep in mind too that a big part of why Ariza looks so great is because he played next to Bryant and Gasol. It’s a big situation thing for him, and the reason he’s trying to land a big contract now is because he and his agent know he won’t be nearly as effective on a team that actually needs to rely on him as a significant weapon on offense.
And Ariza can’t shoot, dribble or pass anywhere near as good as Ariza can
realgm.com repoting Rubio will stay over seas for not one but TWO seasons with the DKV Joventut
Was Steven Hill drafted? I see him on the summer league. He’s an energy guy. I’d rather have that 7 footer as a back-up center over Gortat, Madsen, or Thomas.
Sorry, as well as Johnson can.
Rubio’s buyout increases after this season to something like $7.8 million. So if he stays I assume it’s for 2 years.
As for Ariza, I think he’s a guy who’s a much better player on a good team rather than our team. If that makes sense.
Gendo-last night, (or this morning) I was basically saying Rubio needs to tell us whats going on and quit hiding. He can even come out and say yeah we are working on the buyout or I still want to play in the NBA or something, anything. If he is going to play for us he should be signed and ready to go for summer league, other wise he gets a late jump and then Flynn will be the leader and he won’t be, its in his best interest to get in and get started and get better to make more money in 3 years.
Swan
JJ isnt a FA until next year, and well have loads of cap space at that time. also, this year we are still below - we are at 50 mill, and i believe the cap is closer to 60 mill, which is more than enough to find room for Ariza.
Come on now, Swan. You can’t lump me in with Marty or some of these other kids.
In one of the articles on Canis Hoopus it seemed to imply that after the lawsuit was dropped there would be an opportunity to negotiate. Perhaps Ricky stays there for a year but I’m guessing there’s some kind of compromise in the works where he plays for maybe one season and then DKV lowers the buyout to something more reasonable.
Still hoping that this is a smokescreen and he gets out of this season but if we have to wait a year, well, then that gives us something to look forward to next season when things are hurting.
I hope Ariza doesn’t come here, I need him to stay with my other favorite team. My boy Magic needs to get on the phone with Ariza and tell him to stay
C-Note, This other team has Rubio between a rock and a hard place. We really need to suspend judgment until this all shakes out. If he comes out and says he’s playing with the Wolves he loses what little leverage he has with them. He has to say he’s going back.
C-Note:
I’m going to take you at face-value here and try to address your point.
Basically Rubio coming out and saying he’s going to play for the Wolves would hamstring him when it comes to buyout negotiations. He needs his Spanish team to believe he’s to explore other options to help reduce that buyout to a manageable level.
The best thing he can do right now is just shut up and let the Wolves, his agent and team work together to get the situation resolved.
Gendo - You suggest Love trades too much !
You know that will upset me !
I’m not saying to come and say yes with the wolves, but tell us that your still working on a buyout. Another reason is if he is going to for sure be here this year then time to start looking for a good trade for Rubio or Flynn(hopefully not Flynn) They aren’t going to be able to play together
Dallas has offered Gortat the entire MLE. So signing him is probably out of the range of possibility now.
I don’t think this is the year to go nuts on the 3rd guy in the front court rotation.
He would have probably started next to Al and bring Love off the bench
I can see that…but Gortat isn’t life or death for that. I think Kahn will have that question answered by the trade deadline or next summer with the draft / FA.
I don’t think Gortat is nearly as good as people think he is. All there really is to support him being worth that kind of money are adjusted stats and a couple flashes in the playoffs.
I can think of 5 guys off the top of my head in the 2010 draft that would do a ton more for us than Gortat.
I’m guessing the draft
matt — We don’t have cap space. We have $50 mil in contracts without including the rookies. The three first-rounders total about $6 million. Rubio counts against the Wolves cap — even if he’s playing overseas — until the start of the regular season. Best case scenario, that gives us $2-3 million in cap space IF we renounce the MLE.
Come on now, Swan. I was being facetious there and to my credit I’ve toned down my Love posting dramatically.
I’d say I keep my dislike of Love to myself in 95% of my post now. Give me some credit, dawg!
If we make nay big acquisitions this year, it’ll be via what Gendo said….taking salary dump players. That’s why we have the big expiring contracts of Brian Cardinal and Etan Thomas.
I’ll say it, trade Love for Tyler H, jk
I think sometimes it’s good to take a step back and appreciate the majesty that is Cardinal’s contract.
If I could go back in time I mean I’d either kill Hitler or tackle Jerry West before he got to his fax machine.
I’d trade Love for like, Paul Millsap. I think he’s just as good and will ultimately make a more ideal 6th man in the long run.
Here’s a link to the latest Canis Hoopus article from Spain. It contains a translation.
http://www.canishoopus.com/2009/7/2/935880/ricky-el-primer-paso-ricky-the#comments
Just in case some of you haven’t read it yet.
Are you guys seriously saying you would pay Ariza $8 million per year? God help us if Kahn is reading any of these posts.
Ariza is not even worth the MLE to the Wolves. He is a role player who would be like an anchor around this franchises neck if they signed him. He is a taller version of Trenton Hassel, how did that work out for the Wolves? I am praying that the Lakers open up the bank and give Ariza something over the MLE, they’ll be regretting it 3 months into the season.
Joe Johnson will almost assuredly get the max next off season. He will be one of the top 7 or 8 FA with half the league having enough money to sign him. You have to realize that if a team other than Atlanta signs him his salary will be around $17.5 million per. That is all he will be able to get as a max FA. Jermaine O’Neal and Tracy McGrady are getting paid more than that right now.
By the way there is no chance that Johnson signs here as a FA. The best way for the Wolves to use all their cap space is by trade. That is the only hope they have of getting an upper echelon player that they don’t draft.
Good to know Ricky doesn’t have any intentions of signing with like, Real Madrid for 5 years.
Thank you jama! Paying Ariza $8 mil/year. That’s crazy talk.
Joe Johnson might be willing to be here though, depending on the year we have. Atlanta is a train wreck of a team, and Johnson already showed that he’s willing to go big to small when he demanded to be traded from Phoenix.
I agree it’s a long shot to land him in free agency, but I I’d bet he’s not real happy in Atlanta and we should at least try.
for some reason it still feels like this may not be done. Right now this has to be the worst case scenario for DKV doesn’t it? Could they really be happy about this?
It seems to me this is still the opening solvo. Drop the suit to get to the negotiating table.
I know if I owned a team that was bankrupt and I really needed my star player to buy himself out of his contract so I could pay off debts than I’d be pretty pissed if he decided to come back for two years.
If DKV is really on the brink of bankruptcy, then yes, this is their worst case scenario.
My guess is this is Rubio’s new way of trying to lower the buyout figure. That’s why he dropped the lawsuit…the old way wasn’t working.
I certainly hope this is the case. I know the president of DKV said that there wouldn’t be any negotiation until the suit was dropped.
Just guessing that team Rubio is engaging in one big staring contest. Hopefully DKV blinks first.
still it’s a little strange that no major sports media provider in the U.S. has picked up on this. Wondery why?
What if Ricky Rubio renamed himself Mango and Brendan Frasier wound up falling madly in love with him. Just kidding. But doesn’t that sort of remind you of what’s going on between the Wolves and Ricky Rubio?
The only thing I don’t want happening is him signing long term with Madrid or CSKA Moscow or Olympiakos or something like that. Although I doubt that would happen, I’m glad Rubio has come out and just flat out said he won’t do that.
Yeah seems like he’s saying he won’t play for another European team. Hopefully it also means this buyout gets taken care of either before this season or next season. Would hate to wait two years.
The only bright side would be that we’d know what we have with Flynn.
well I said i’d stay away for a little while and I have…apologize for my cynical ways yesterday morning. I found this on a Spanish news site f/ Ricky’s Father talking to the media: heres the translation and also the link so you can see for yourselves:
Esteve Blond, the father of Ricky Blond, attended to the microphones of Wave Madrid to speak of the uncertain future of its son.
“With the clause that there is is unfeasible that go to the NBA” The ancestor of the ’small prodigy’ of the Spanish basketball wanted to remove iron to the polemics that maintains Ricky with the DKV Joventut: “Itself there is líado a chicken of a thing that is not so serious”.
“Did not we include that the Joventut reacted thus. All the workers have the right, and a right of Ricky is to know if its contract is correct or not. Only it asks that”, explained Esteve on the demand of conciliation that presented to lower their clause at the outset of the dark green club (6 million euro).
“One must see if the Joventut wants that play with them” “we Try to leave the margin everything that we are able, but Ricky is nervous. It was only a demand of conciliation, but an excessive chicken has been bundled”, sentenced on the lawsuit with the Joventut.
Options of future On the desires of Ricky on its future destiny Esteve Blond was very clear: “In principle Ricky only wants to play in the Joventut, now one must see if the Joventut wants that play with them”.
“The number 5 and Minnesota is the best than would be able to have passed to Ricky” was shown a lot more I avoid when was asked by the interest of the Real Madrid in including him. “Things of many places arrive us and there are conversations with many people… But one must rule out nothing”, said.
Esteve Blond was shown delighted with the election of Ricky with the number 5 of the draft with the Wolves: “The number 5 and Minnesota is the best than would be able to have passed to Ricky. Would be able to spend two years without going to the NBA. Leaving before would have that to have gone insurance and we would have that to speak with banks to pay the clause, and would have that to be two years playing free”.
“With the clause that there is is unfeasible that go to the NBA”, sentenced.
http://www.marca.com/2009/07/02/baloncesto/acb/1246538106.html
I guess I am just sick of the Rubio situation so I am going to concentrate on who we have and who wants to play here. Do you guys think Brewer or Gomes will start at SF, assuming Ellington or someone else starts at SG
I think there’s a 50-60% chance Gomes is traded before the season starts.
If one was to be traded it would probably be Telfair or Gomes, you could be right Bryan
Bryan
I just think there are going to be too many other places for Johnson to land. There are going to be at least a dozen teams with enough money to sign Johnson. I can’t imagine a scenario where the Wolves are in the top 10 wish list of places Johnson wants to sign. I’d put the chances at 3%.
I doubt Telfair goes anywhere. I’d be surprised if they want to make Flynn the starter from day one. He’ll play a lot of minutes but I’d expect them to gradually raise it as the season goes by.
Logical Thinker - You said:
“Foo- At [Ellington’s] spot you’ve got to be able to handle ball and make some plays. He can shoot it but can’t create his own shot off dribble. If he and Flynn are on the floor together and they leave Wayne alone to shoot, that is one dumb team. By the way if Ellington plays alot Philly’s 9 win futility mark is in danger.”
I agree that Ellington needs to be able to create his own shot a bit better, get to the line more and I’d also like to see him prove he can defend at The NBA level. But with some strong low-post scorers on the roster, it stands to reason that Ellington will have his share of open jumpers.
If, as you submit, a team is dumb to leave Ellington alone on the perimeter, then what else should that team do against The Wolves instead? Should they leave Al alone on the low-block? Should they mark Ellington 1-on-1, double team Al and then leave, say Jonny Flynn unmarked on the perimeter?
Either way, having a guy who can shoot the lights out like Ellington is a huge asset, if for no other reason than they can’t leave him unmarked on the perimeter… they have to sacrifice elsewhere if they are going to mark Ellington constantly, right?
For perspective though, again, I’m just saying that Ellington will average 12-14 ppg, which I don’t consider to be much of a stretch at all if he gets 25-30 mpg, which I see as a distinct probability.
I think I’m one of the few thinking along the same lines with you Foo on Ellington. I have said on here a couple times, that I could see him becoming a Rip Hamilton type player if he can get to the line a little more
Sean - Though January was a blast, I agree… every team we played seemed to be missing it’s STAR, not just some players.
I remember we played New Orleans without CP3, David West and Tyson Chandler… remember the game when Sean West went for 20 with a bunch of big dunks?
That was the type of team we were playing in January…
So, again, I had a blast watching those games. But you gotta understand what those wins were…
Who’s Sean West?
st. paul pioneer press just reported rubio will stay in europe the next two years.
Is it a blog when the “namesake reporter” writes in it as often as I drop my mother a letter? Blazing speed on posting a comment on the report out of Spain that Rubio is staying there for 2 more years. As soon as you post your recap on the Vikings last game of the 08/09 season I may quit reading this “blog”.
That story posted at 1:30 this afternoon.
Foo, the potential in January was clear. Even you can’t dispute that. That was as much about our team coming together as it was about the missing pieces of the others.
Let’s put it this way, we won the games we should have been winning. The thing I noticed is that they started to look like a “team”. Guys were having fun and playing loose. Good things happen when you get that from your players.
Any truth to the Rubio story?
Well Swany no one mentioned it, and the pioneer press was the first u.s. site to break the news i believe.
I’m not sold on Ariza as an $8 million dollar man, but the Trenton Hassell comparisons are ridiculous. You’re telling me a 24 year old small forward who averaged 11 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 steals a game in the NBA playoffs isn’t attractive to you? He hit 40-84 three’s.
And yeah, I understand he was wide open in a lot of them, but how about game four against Orlando when he pulled up from the right wing in a five point game wiht a few mintues left and just drilled one. 24, former first round pick, has seen his numbers increase EVERY YEAR since he came into the league. Trevor Ariza is legit.
If it was about the team coming together, then we would have kept winning. We lost a TON of games between the end of January and when Al went down. And through that whole streak, we lost to every team above .500 except for Phoenix.
In December we played nothing but above .500 teams except for the Clippers, and went 2-14 with the only two wins being against the only two bad teams we played that month. And at the end of January and into February, when we got back to playing above .500 teams, we went back to getting killed.
Maybe the team was gaining chemistry, but the level of competition was clearly the overwhelming factor there.
Has anyone on here been talking about the rumoured trade with the Blazers regarding Flynn and Thomas for Pryzbilla and Rudy Fernandez.
CBSSports is reporting that Ron Artest has committed to signing with the Lakers.
Where is this rumor posted?
SI also has Ariza committed to the Rockets. How bizzare would that be? Artest to the Lakers, Ariza to the Rockets…
Is Pryzbilla the guy we’d even want? Granted he’s far less expensive than Chandler or Dalembert while still doing the same thing, but he’s also not very popular here. And like Gortat, I can think of 4 or 5 guys in next year’s draft who would do the same thing or more for us.
Without McGrady or Yao, the Rockets aren’t going to be any good. Ariza’s a nice piece for them to have, but they lack the talent to compete and make picking him up relevant.
The Blazers have to move Pryzbilla and take back 75% of his contract so that they can maximize cap space for Hedo Turkoglu. That gets their cap space up around $10-$11 million, which is the number Hedo wants.
The Lakers have been my other favorite team since Magic and I don’t want Artest, I would rather have Ariza and Odom back instead of Artest
I guess. Joel does have a short contract, and he wouldn’t stop us from drafting a big man next year.
It might be worthwhile just to see if Jefferson/Love/defensive big man is a viable rotation.
But we HAVE to get a guarantee from Rubio that he’ll play here if we deal Flynn.
Pryzbilla would be the guy who can play 15-20 minutes a night situationally.
Don’t trade Flynn, I would trade anybody but Flynn and Jefferson right now
Logical Thinker - Do you dislike every player we drafted this year?
Sometimes you have to over-pay to get the player you need… I am a big fan of both Ariza and Joe Johnson, but if Ariza is worth $6-7M per and Joe Johnson is worth $10M per, I’d happily spend the additional $3-4M for Joe Johnson.
My new favorite FA target is Von Wafer. He really fits our time-table, budget and needs.
And I’m digging the possibility of Jamario Moon too. He’s 29 and would probably take $2-3M per. Very good defender, respectable 3-point shooter and keeps possession - nice combination, price for a rotational guy.
Foo, you and I are on the same page with Von Wafer.
Wafer is kind of a head case
I liked the nerdy, numbers-crunching Gendo from a few months ago a lot more than the “I HATE EVERYONE & EVERYTHING” Gendo of today…
At least a little statistical analysis and the ability to call him a “40-year-old virgin” brought something fresh to the blog every once in a while.
Foo -
Speaking of “40 year old virgins” hypothesizing on the Wolves free agent acquisitions has got to be pretty boring. I am a fan of this team, but the rebuilding plan Kahn has laid out means we won’t be contending for a playoff spot until 2010-11 at the earliest. The team is capped out, and without Rubio we still have
Flynn/Bassy/Brown
Brewer/Ellington
Gomes
Love/Cardinal/Smith/Songaila/Madsen
Al/Thomas/Pecherov
We have one roster spot, and I can’t envision that spot being taken by anybody but a rookie free agent or a vet playing at the minimum. Clearly this team needs another body at the 2/3 to get minutes, and that should attract some vet who didn’t get the money they were looking for at the end of Free Agency.
Speculating on Wafer, Gortat, Ariza, etc. is useless.
“I liked the nerdy, numbers-crunching Gendo from a few months ago a lot more than the “I HATE EVERYONE & EVERYTHING” Gendo of today…”
What the? Who exactly have I said that I hate other than the occasional Love joke? If anything I’ve been consistently positive since the draft.
Wait if you are getting huffy because I made fun of Brian Cardinal’s awful contract then holy lol son.
Artest going to Lakers. He’s way better than Ariza. So cruel.
I love trade machine (needs to be updated though)
Portland gets
Cardinal
Madsen
Telfair
Twolves get
Fernandez
Outlaw
Przybilla
our team gets better and they get expirings and a PG
Centrist, I agree that it is unlikely the Wolves will add an expensive FA. I don’t think, however, that the current roster will be in place come the start of the season. I think that some moves will be made. I don’t think that the wing situation is sufficient to get through the season, and I don’t think that Kahn will try to patch it with a mid-tier FA who couldn’t find a home elsewhere.
Of course, what do I know about Kahn?
I’m not sure if you’re being serious, matt but Portland would be better off not signing Hedo (who is a big overrated imo) than making that deal if it was a prerequisite to signing him.
I mean, the reputation is that Hedo is a good shooter who can play point forward right? Well let’s compare him to a a shooter who I think we all can agree isn’t great. Randy Foye.
He’s a pretty good passer (about a 3/1 assist to bad pass ratio) and provides pretty good defense at 2 positions, but he’s not worth the deal they’ll have to give him. Especially if they have to unload that many valuable assets to clear room for him.
There’s your numbers. Happy, Foo?
oops. Forgot to paste in the comparison:
THREE POINT JUMPERS
35.6% Turkgolu
36.0% Foye
2 POINT JUMPERS
38.1% Turkgolu
38.4% Foye
INSIDE SHOTS
53.0% Turkgolu
49.1% Foye
EFFECTIVE FG%
45.8% Turkgolu
45.3% Foye
Most people will counter that by talking about Hedo’s clutchiness, but in clutch situations (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) he shot 35.7%. For the purposes of comparison Gomes shot 37.8%.
fiveanddime:
None of us know what Kahn will do, but I don’t think how the roster fits together THIS year will weigh heavily in his mind. The point is pooling assets and making deals to set the roster up for next season and beyond.
So if they move someone it will be for long term value not to fill short term gaps.
I still find it a little odd that neither ESPN or SI have reported that Rubio is for sure staying in Spain? Just find that kind of odd. They almost never get scooped this bad.
ESPN’s reporting Ariza has verbally agreed to a deal with Houston.
Gendo
maybe not 100% serious, but think about it - they wouldn’t miss any of those players (save Fernandez), they’d get Joel’s contract off the books and gain more than 8 mill in expirings. they also get a PG in Telfair that they badly need - he’s no superstar but he’s definitely an upgrade over what they have.
the twolves dump 2 power forwards that shouldnt get time anyway on this team and a pg they’ve gotten everything they can get out of (inconsistent shooting and offense running and non-existant defense) for fernandez (who’d help get us our star in Rubio), joel (the big rebounding shot-blocker we need at half the dalambert price) and a decent SF to fill the minutes at the 3 with Gomes (letting brewer primarily be a 2 with Ellington.
I think its a decent trade that won’t happen, but has some logic to it.
One thing to keep in mind is that Portland has already had Telfair and fair or not he didn’t make many friends during his time there. I’m not sure they’d be falling all over themselves to re-acquire him.
I don’t think they want Telfair and I don’t think we are trading Flynn within the Division and theya aren’t trading Rudy to us for the same reason
More numbers, Gendo. More!
Joel P is better than Oden why would Portland trade him. He has settled into a nice NBA center. he can’t score but never could.
Foo I do like Flynn I think he’s a tough kid. Not sold on Rubio not a fan of Ellington. I played division 1 ball and can tell if a player can stay in front of his man on D. Flynn can Rubio and Ellington can not. That is the most important aspect to team D, contain ball. Rubio gets steals but can’t stay in front of slow footed Euro’s what is he going to do with the caliber of athlete in NBA???? As far as Ellington getting to FT line more, HOW??? he’s never been a high attempts player for a reason, no attack off dribble cause his handle is poor. You either get to the FT line or not…. Not a teachable skill. Just my honest opinion. Not a matter if I like the players or not.
