A longer look at Ricky
Posted on July 2nd, 2009 – 9:50 PMBy Jerry Zgoda
My colleague Dennis Brackin tracked down Quincy Lewis, Jim Boeheim and a few others who have seen Ricky Rubio up close and wrote a profile on him for tomorrow’s front page of the paper.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/49771562.html
That short report in a Spanish newspaper strikes me as merely posturing in what looks like a protracted dance between the Timberwolves and Rubio’s camp. Sounds like he’s negotiating his Badalona team for a better buyout number by saying he’ll come back for two more seasons rather a news-making decision. He’s already signed for those two seasons anyway. Remember this is a guy who just a week ago was saying he wanted more than anything to play in the NBA.
David Kahn said by text message late this afternoon and early evening that he doesn’t know if the report is accurate and said he doubted whether it was a significant development in what he has predicted could be a “turbulent” summer because of the RRM (Ricky Rubio Matter).
As mentioned by posters here, it will be interesting to see if Kahn and the Wolves make a play for unhappy Portland guard Rudy Fernandez — a true shooting guard and Rubio’s former Joventut Badalona teammate who is none too thrilled the Blazers are trying to sign Hedo Turkoglu — in an attempt to woo the draft’s No. 5 pick and make him feel more at home in Minnesota.
OK, I’m back out…
319 Responses to "A longer look at Ricky"
I don’t think Portland wants to help us out any
Doesn’t matter. Portland has little use for Fernandez and a bad need to balance its roster with Webster healthy, Hedo incoming, and Fyre leaving. Off the right deal and they’ll take it.
Check out the article Steve Aschburner wrote for SI.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/07/02/rubio.wait/index.html?eref=T1
The basic summary is the Wolves are best to keep Rubio, even if he plays in Spain for a few years, because here’s a list of other players who made their teams wait a year or two:
Larry Bird
Arvydas Sabonis
Toni Kukoc
Drazen Petrovic
Manu Ginobili
Louis Scola
and of course, the frickin Admiral, David Robinson
Think about that.
We lose his rights after 3 years, right? So 2 years is ok, then he can come over and we sign him for 3 years
They never lose his rights as long as he keeps playing professionally elsewhere. He’d have to sit out an entire season before he’d go back in the NBA draft.
No, unless he sits an entire year out, we own his rights indefinitely.
oh, ok, he wouldn’t do that would he to hope to get to a different team, does he have to go in a draft after that year or just sign with someone?
C Note, we have his rights for 4 years with a 5th option. Those 4 years dont start until he comes to play in the NBA. So even if he stayed in Spain playing for 2 years, we would still have rights for 4 NBA at least.
If Rubio played in Spain for three decades and came to the NBA when he was 50, we’d still own his rights.
unless we trade those rights, lol, ok, I’m done talking Rubio now, I would want Rudy if we didn’t have to trade Flynn or Jefferson, if we could get Fernandez and Pryzzy for Love and expiring contracts, I would do that. Maybe Rubio would be happy that his Spanish lover would be here
I wouldn’t trade Love to the Blazers unless we got Aldridge in return.
Keep in mind that, as good as he plays, Rudy is just a #24 pick overall. He’s not worth giving up a top 10 pick for after just one season in the NBA.
People seem to want to overpay for him probably because of the conception that Portland is a division rival and would want a boatload in return. If they ask for that much, they can keep him.
I think Portland still owes us for brandon Roy
Maybe we could work out a deal for Joel Pryzbilla (shot blocker/defender to pair with Jefferson) and Rudy Fernandez (athletic shooting guard with “guts” that we desperately need) for Flynn (they need an upgrade at point) and and one or two expiring contracts. Pryzbilla wouldn’t be needed (in Portland’s eyes) due to their belief in Oden’s potential and Rudy’s not needed due to Roy and Turkoglu. Not sure who wouldn’t make that trade, assuming that Rubio would more likely show up.
we have no one to trade for fernandez except jonny flynn and MAAAAYBE craig smith. I dont think gomes would cut it (though i love his game). They wouldnt want telfair back, i know that much
oh and love.. but we wouldnt do that
Fernandez is on his rookie deal. Contractually he’s not worth that much.
If he’s really as upset as the reports say, and factoring in the overload of swingmen in Portland, the Blazers I don’t think will ask for an overwhelming price.
Not that this means ANYTHING, but on ESPN’s trade machine, I did a deal of Love and Gomes to Memphis for Rudy Gay and Marc Gasol. Then can you imagine if we pulled a Flynn for Fernandez deal with Portland!
Gasol
Jefferson
Gay
Fernandez
Rubio
Again, means nothing that the machine said that deal would work, but it was pretty cool…
Flynn for Rudy Fernandez would be a horrible trade, you could get someone way better at SG for Flynn, I would hope so or why would we have drafted him 6th
Kahn has been a pleasant surprise so far, but I don’t know if I want him trying to get the better of Pritchard.
Portland is not in a position to ask much for Fernandez, as mentioned he’s a late 1st round pick, is pissed off, and really has very little showing in the nba thus far. Flynn or Love involved in anything for Fernandez is ridiculous. Smith and Brown might work, although that would force portland to throw in someone else for the $ to match up. I don’t see portland giving up Pryzbilla w/Oden’s injury history already being rather significant.
I wouldn’t mind having this Williams guy as coach from the little i’ve read. players like coaches who are upfront, lay it out there, and will let you play.
Yeah, Portland should just give us Rudy because we felt bad for the whole Jailblazers thing and gave them Roy
Speaking of more Ricky, just finished watching a replay of the Gold Medal BB game from the OLympics on Universal Sports Network. I know they are replaying it tomorrow morning. A quick search suggests that the USN channel may not be availaable in the Twin Cities, but if you can find it you can get a little Rubio fix. Although Ricky doesn’t do a lot, at least in the 2nd half I watched. I forgot how much of a stud Navarro was in that game, though.
If people loved Ricky Rubio so much during the Olympics, how could not love Rudy Fernandez. He was unbelievable and very solid his rookie season. He has Ginobili potential. It would be a steal to get Fernandez for Flynn.
Arenal, Fernandez only played about 25 mpg last year in a crowded Portland backcourt and averaged 10 ppg on 39.9% 3 pt shooting. His numbers were better than Ginobili’s rookie season, and on par with Ginobili’s second year. Ginobili’s best 3 pt shooting % during a season was 40.1%. Fernandez for Flynn is a great deal for the Wolves, especially if it gets Rubio here.
Brandon also took the argument to the next logical point with Marc Gasol. His rookie stats were also very good, and now he may lose his spot to Hasheem Thabeet. If we had two Spaniards, why not have an armada? I would expect that Love could get us Gasol. Then Memphis could have the Rudy Gay / Kevin Love front court.
MikeB: Flynn for Fernandez is idiotic. you don’t trade a lottery pick straight up for a end of the first-rounder period. No, Flynn for Fernandez is not a good deal for the wolves, it would be Foye-Roy II. Of course Marc’s stats were good, lots of garbage points to be had in Memphis when you’re getting routed.
The spanish armada got obliterated dunce. thus horrible analogy. IMO it would be utterly stupid to trade Flynn until he gets on a court and shows what he can do. His value will only go up once he gets some PT.
Flynn for Fernandez is utterly, hopelessly, and completely stupid. Its not going to happen. period.
Rubio will come here regardless. We own his rights forever unless he decides to sit out an entire year, which he isn’t going to do. Worse case scenario for him is, go to the wolves for 4yrs, grow-learn-develop, then leave and cash in on his 2nd contract when he’s 22-23. not bad. besides there is no guarantee he’ll get drafted where he wants when he re-enters the draft after his year long exodus. that would be a helluva gamble on his part and cost him more millions. He’s going to play for the wolves at some point. He knows the best competition is in the NBA and he wants to see how he stacks up.
I know it is crazy to suggest this, but maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if he played a year in Spain. Then Flynn and Rubio would have another year playing max min and growing up. That article that was posted earlier makes you think. If they are a bit older and more mature the dual back court might not be so threatening. I know 18 to 19/20 isn’t much, but I do know I’ve never met an 18yr old who doesn’t think his sh*t don’t stink.
I don’t think it’s crazy at all, Korea. Even though the maturation isn’t significant chronologically, most of us made huge developmental leaps in those ages. I think the Wolves would be perfectly happy to let him take another year (or even two) in Spain to round out his game before coming over.
I would hate to have another Marbury KG incident where two young egos kill each other, but then when they get older they look back and kind of do the…maybe playing together wasn’t so bad…
Maybe having Rubio and Flynn come together when they are 20 and 21, the final out come will be much better.
Of course that takes one thing most of us lack…patience.
Logical Thinker - from the last post in the previous string… whether you played D1 basketball or not has very little bearing on your takes.
In other words, when things get contentious, I hope you don’t think you can just drop the old, “Well I played D1 basketball, so I’m right” card.
Maybe the rest of the board is wowed by that (very possible), but it’s not going to wow me, my brother.
As Gendo stated a few months ago, that’s called Fallacy of Authority… in other words - your storied D1 playing career doesn’t make you any more right than anybody else.
Getting Fernandez for Flynn would be excellent, but won’t happen because Portland doesn’t want a rookie point guard. They are looking for a veteran upgrade at the point.
As for trading a “lottery pick” for a late first rounder–what on earth does it matter where people were drafted? Fernandez has shown he can play (he also would have gone much higher, but there were questions about his ability to get out of his contract).
Fernandez is a very useful guy. I don’t see a match unless we can get involved in a 3-way to get Heinrich or Devin Harris or something to Portland.
Getting Fernandez for Flynn would not be excellent you dunce. It would make Portland a championship contender for years, and leave us with another defensively inadequate perimeter player. Think a little before you post dunce.
Sounds like Portland would be happy to get anything for Fernandez at this point….why would you trade a lottery pick?
I agree with the take that it doesn’t really matter where a player is taken. Would you trade Flynn for Ginobili or Arenas? They both got drafted in the second round does that mean you wouldn’t trade a first rounder for them?
I also agree that Fernandez could be had for much less than Flynn. The Blazers really don’t have much leverage in those trade negotiations. I don’t think Flynn should be untouchable in trade talks though. Maybe Flynn to the Blazers in a package deal would work.
First of all, the name calling has to stop. Really. Just stop.
Second, Portland wouldn’t make that deal.
Third: would make Portland a championship contender for years? Jonny Flynn? Really? That’s where we are? If you value Jonny Flynn like that, I don’t know how to have a conversation about it.
Fourth: “sounds like Portland will be happy to get anything for Fernandez…?” Why? You think Portland is run by panickers? They know what they are doing. Did we trade Rubio the day after the draft to the Knicks?
Fifth: Fernandez is a good player. He shoots, can defend fairly well, and has room to expand his role. He was a decent sized cog as a rookie on a 54 win team.
Sixth: If you asked me 2 weeks ago if I would trade Jonny Flynn, Mike Miller and Randy Foye for Ricky Rubio, Rudy Fernandez, and contracts, I would have said yes and twice on Sundays.
I also don’t know why there is this idea that Portland has no leverage or has to trade him.
First, he’s come out and said that the story about his anger is untrue. He isn’t going back to Europe.
Which he can’t do anyway, since he would have to be released from his contract with Portland before he could play there.
It wouldn’t surprise me if he were frustrated. And certainly, he might get moved; but I think Portland really likes him, and I don’t see why they are under any real pressure here.
Demar Derozan would have been a better pickup than Fernandez especially defensively. Why would you trade Flynn for him?
Tom - Demar DeRozan better than Rudy Fernandez?
Please explain.
“Demar Derozan would have been a better pickup than Fernandez especially defensively. Why would you trade Flynn for him?”
Wayne Ellington is better than Fernandez! The star of my intramural team would be as good as Fernandez!
Look, whatever. We value the players differently. It means something to me that Fernandez shot 40% from 3 last year on a significant volume. It means something to me that he was a significant contributor to a good team. Your announcement that DeRozan would be better doesn’t really mean much to me. Give me some logic, something.
Derozan brings strong defense, athletic body, ability to get to the hole. Fernandez brings a guy who can stand behind the 3 point line and hit 40% of the time without doing much else. I don’t see much difference between Fernandez and Ellington. If you wanted what Fernandez brings you should have just drafted Curry.
BTW if Derozan was drafted instead of Flynn, I don’t think it would be that hard to bring in Rubio right now. And I think you could get a lot more for a starting PG in Flynn than a castoff Fernandez who didn’t provide that much for Portland last year anyway.
eric this a reason other people are calling you a dunce. Believe me you are not gods gift to basketball takes. Please STFU now.
And to eric the sconny, if your hero Fernandez is so good why are they bringing in Turkuglo? Doesnt make much sense. But coming from a guy who would give up Flynn, a guy other teams actually want, for a backup in Fernandez, your lame opinion doesnt do a whole lot for me.
Eric
Yeah two weeks ago you might have been happy to make that trade but that doesn’t mean that trade makes sense today. Things change and you have to adapt and change your thinking as moves are made. The reason I said the Blazers are a little behind the 8 ball is because they need to dump some salary to sign Hedo which it seems they have some interest in doing.
I to agree that Pritchard isn’t an idiot but that doesn’t mean the Wolves are going to be on the wrong side of any trade they make with Portland.
If we trade Love for any player unless it’s a Kobe like player we are just plain stupid. This kid is young wants to play and had a very good rookie year. This is exactly the problem with the TWolves, they draft a good player and then attempt to trade them to fill other holes and we end up the losers! I say we do not trade Jeffrson, Love or any other players with an upside. So we suck for a couple of years, we are all used to it and if we avoid the immediate gratification syndrome and be patient we have a chance. Just like Foye this year, we traded him to move up only to draft someone who doesn’t want to play or can’t play here because of a contract. It’s just plain stupid in my book! Just my .02 cents.
Jama
Sure, things change. I’m not saying that point makes this trade a slam dunk. Also, I think Portland has the cap space for hedo now, and I think their plan is to trade Outlaw to relieve the logjam on the wing. Webster isn’t healthy, and Batum is 19 years old.
Moving away from Fernandez, I think there is a radical overvaluation of Flynn going on. Actually, I’m not really an advocate of trading him right now, because I think it would be hard to get all that much for him.
What teams out there want a rookie point guard AND didn’t get one in the draft? Not that some of those teams might not prefer Flynn to the guy they got, but enough to both punt on the guy they got AND give up a significant piece to the Wovles to get him? I doubt it. I’m sure other teams liked him, but I don’t think anyone views him as a franchise changing talent.
[…] nobody@flickr.com (phuonglethi2005) wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptArenal, Fernandez only played about 25 mpg last year in a crowded Portland backcourt and averaged 10 ppg on 39.9% 3 pt shooting. His numbers were better than Ginobili’s rookie season, and on par with Ginobili’s second year. … […]
eric in madison - Nice point about the value of any rookie PG… as of TODAY, so many teams have a supposed “PG with promise” after this year’s draft.
But the key fact to continue to keep in mind here (and I believe Kahn is also thinking this way, based on the Rubio-Flynn picks) is that next year’s draft is the exact inverse of this year’s draft. This year, it was very deep in PGs and very thin in Bigs; Next year is very thin in PGs and very deep in Bigs.
By next year, I would guess that at least half of the PGs drafted in the 1st-round this year will have already lost a lot of their luster to the teams that drafted them. But by drafting the top-2 PGs in this year’s draft, Kahn has pretty good odds that both Flynn and Rubio will have a lot of value still a year from now… especially if Rubio stays in Spain this year. So when the other teams are in need of a new PG, The Wolves will have a deep supply in a thin market.
I think Kahn’s patient/stockpile assets approach is right on. We’re going to be able to leverage all of these assets in the next 16-18 months and have a very nice product to put on the court in 2011-2012.
And I, for one, will be pleased to wait until then because I believe Kahn is building this thing the right way, with a strong foundation and with blinders on to any sort of short-term fix.
In other words, next year’s draft only has ONE true PG who is assurred of being drafted in the 1st-round: John Wall.
So WHEN do you think Jonny Flynn and Ricky Rubio will have the highest value? This year, when there were just 10 PGs drafted in the 1st-round (and 16 overall); or next year when John Wall and a handful of combo-guards will be the only serious draft options? I mean, draft Kalin Lucas or Sherron Collins or trade for Jonny Flynn?
Good point, Foo, about Kahn’s approach, BUT. . . come January when the wind starts howling down 6th Street (or February, after Favre has delivered the Vikes to glory) there’s got to be some reason to watch the Wolves, and some reason for the Wolves themselves to show up.
Everybody just wants to see a little more movement. Rudy Fernandez, besides the “hey, Ricky, he’s from the same country as you!” angle, is at least a new guy with a little pep. He’s not worth Flynn, but I think we have a little cap room to absorb him without sending back salary. It would also be nice to hear something about even a cheap free agent signing here.
Elsewhere, I love how Sid is playing up the Monty Williams thing. Kahn still has a wife and house in Portland. It’s obvious he arranged an interview just so he could expense the plane ticket home. Hell, even I’m shrewd enough for that.
Neumms - Even if The Wolves lose 70 games next year, I haven’t been this excited to watch The Wolves for a long, long time.
This would be the year for The Wolves to have the “See What They Can Do” ad-campaign because I’m extremely curious to see what their new coach, players and organization are all about.
Winning is great and it will be a requirement 2-3 years from now. But I will argue that there are more fans buzzing about next year than about any other year since the WCF run.
That said, I’d be more than open to move any of our players (including Flynn and Rubio) right now. My only point is that the concepts of Supply-And-Demand will be STRONGLY working in The Wolves’ favor in about 12 months from now.
As for PGs, it’s gonna be John Wall or bust for every PG-needy team. And I just think the PG-needy teams next year would probably much rather trade for a young PG like Flynn or Rubio, rather than gamble on drafting a combo guard or spending big in free-agency.
Whether we deal now, at the deadline or in 12 months, we’re going to be in good shape… so we’re in a nice position to wait for a great deal.
If that wait is until next Monday? Great. Next year? Just as well.
We are seriously going to have to trade for or sign some more guards. Right now our starting SG is Ellington? Backed up by, um, maybe Brewer? Meanwhile I think we have 10 or so PF/C players under contract.
Dave T - The Wolves will balance out their roster prior to training camp. Not to worry.
TWG:
“Just like Foye this year, we traded him to move up only to draft someone who doesn’t want to play or can’t play here because of a contract. It’s just plain stupid in my book!”
The reason Foye was traded is because he’s not going to be worth his next contract. At this point even with his injuries we’ve had three years to look at Foye and have a pretty good idea what he is.
As fans I think we sometimes have a tendency to oversimplify. If you look at his basic numbers (16.3 PPG, 4.3 APG, 3.10 RPG) you think “Hey, that’s a pretty good young player?” but you have to look deeper in that.
Keep in mind the number of possessions a team has to work with in a game is finite, and to a large degree the success and failure of a team is dependent on how efficiently they make use of those opportunities.
Foye is predominately a jump shooter (86% of his shots are jump shots) so you need to look at what rate he converts those jump shots into points.
2 POINT JUMPERS
38.4%
3 POINT JUMPERS
36.0%
Shooting percentages that low are reflective of two things: poor shot selection offensive inefficency. Generally the next step in this argument is to say if Foye is converting his jumpers at that low of a clip, what he needs to do is drive more.
However if you look at those numbers it’s pretty grim.
On inside shots Foye shot 49.1%, which sounds like a high number but compared to the rest of the league it really isn’t. In fact among qualified players there were only 3 player with a lower inside shooting percentage.
Foye also gets his shot blocked at a troubling rate. On inside shots he has literally 1 of every 5 shots rejected, the worst in the NBA.
So if he’s not a good jump shooter and he’s not a good inside scorer what is he? He’s an inefficient scorer that needs far too many touches to generate offensive output.
Getting rid of him before that contract came due was a wise move on Kahn’s part.
Haven’t read your post, yet, Gendo… but I see numbers!
I LOVE MATH!
Seriously evaluating players is so much different now with the flood of new information we’ve seen the past few years from Basketball Reference and 82 Games. I still think a lot of the faux-sabermatic style metrics (I’m looking at your PER) are pretty crappy, but these granulated conversion stats are incredibly useful for determining what players are and aren’t good at.
I like Miller and Randy Foye for who they are… they can be good players on good teams.
But based on where they fit in Minnesota, their future in Minnesota and the cost it would have required to have kept Foye beyond his rookie contract, I have no love lost for these guys…
The trade was Ricky Rubio for two nice players with zero future in Minnesota. I like it.
And we also got some expiring contracts in the deal that will undoubtedly be used at the deadline.
I could see Foye being an okay sixth man for a decent team, playing a bit of point and off guard, but yeah he’s just not a good fit in Minnesota.
If they had a chance to retain him on the cheap that would be one thing, but since he’s had starters minutes he’s going to require starters salary.
A lot of you guys need to chill out a bit. You’re talking about a lot of guys who’ve never set foot on the NBA hardwood, and acting as if you can really project their performance at the next level such that your trade ideas are brilliant and another guy’s are idiotic. The draft is always a gamble, and you really don’t know if their value will be higher in a year, once they have proven their ability, or lower, once the hype is gone.
The only thing that Miller and Foye have in common is that they did not have a future here. I really don’t see how Gendo can run that breakdown of Foye’s performance and then suggest him as a 6th man. As an undersized, defensively-challenged SG, if you can’t consistently hit your shots, what exactly is your role? Foye was very inconsistent at performing his one marketable skill, I don’t think that is going to change.
wow……those numbers were the equivilant to a Mike Tyson punch…….knocked the @#$# out!!!
fernandez intrigues me….solid at 2 and 3…if portland doesn’t mind getting craig smith, and Brewer….I am on board….the guy has some skill…and if it convinces rubio…..even better…..
Nice website, supported by ESPN… http://www.howlintwolf.com
I agree that Fernandez would be a nice addition, but I don’t endorse moving Brewer any sooner than the trade deadline. The guy hasn’t finished his audition so to speak and deserves some time to show if he’s improved offensively.
The two players( with no future here supposedly) for one who may never play here? That doesn’t make sense. Again I’ll state where is it written and guaranteed that Rubio is a star? 90 out of 100 players who play in NBA are not stars. Both Foye and Miller are nice players on a good team. Next year when wins are hard to come by we’ll wish we had vets around to not only win games but help the youngsters grow.
LT what do you base Foye being a nice player on? Please look at the statistics cited above. He’s not just a poor jump shooter, he’s a horrifically poor jump shooter and he’s also a poor inside scorer.
What is it that you see him doing well that justifies a spot on the team?
We always have guys like Foye, Mike Miller, Wally Szczcerbiak, Kevin Love, Jonny Flynn. Quality players but they lack the total package to be real gamers. If we kept on the way we were going to end up with a playoff team that can’t get out of the first round. I am old enough that I have already done that. And ownership has as well.
That’s why we are now aiming big - and that’s why we should keep Rubio unless the trade value is too much. But I agree that Flynn does not fit the picture. Anyone who saw (freshman) DeMar DeRozan’s MVP performance at the Pac-10 tournament and two solid NCAA performances know that he is better than guys like Hollinger and most of folks on this board are advertising.
At five and six Rubio and DeRozan were the high potential guys on the board. So, I don’t get why we don’t take both. But I’m not Kahn and don’t know all the angles here. I do agree that DeRozan needs a better outside shot, but most people say Rubio does as well. Flynn definitely needs a better outside shot, too.
C’Mon, Logical - do you think The Wolves are going to go anywhere with Mike Miller and Randy Foye?
You’re absolutely write that Ricky Rubio is not guaranteed to be a star… and even if I were able to produce that in writing (as you requested), I wouldn’t put anything into that anyway.
But the fact is that Rubio has a great chance to be special and we already KNEW that Miller and Foye wouldn’t be. Two good players. Big deal. Good players don’t get it done and anybody in his right mind would swap two good players for one player who has a shot to be a star.
Now, you can quibble with whether you believe Rubio has a chance to be a star or not. But obviously The Wolves believe he can. And it’s nice to know that The Wolves are chasing stars… not just a collection of good players. How many NBA Champs win it all without a single star?
Gotta take a chance every so often, brother.
I’ll go ahead and take chances on landing a star. You go ahead and compile average-to-good players. Then let’s play and see who wins a 7-game series.
Mike B - Flynn has a nice outside shot. DeRozen is gonna stink.
BTW… it’s all but official, ESPN is reporting that Hedo and The Blazers have agreed to terms.
I’m not sure if The Wolves and Blazers will get a deal done, but out teams’ needs are so complementary. Other than the intra-division thing, they should try to get a deal done.
If not with The Wolves, The Blazers still have to trade 1-2 wing players. They’re as bloated at SG & SF as we are at PF & PG.
I have a feeling we’ll be looking back at that Hedo deal in a few years wondering what the hell Pritchard was thinking.
I agree Foo. It’s superstar search around here. We need to get those piece. Role players aren’t that hard to come by.
Gotta get to the dance before you can win. Detroit won without a star player. Larry Brown had them playing team ball…. That is how you win. Many stars didn’t win a championship. Basketball is not baseball you need guys playing together on both O and D to win. I just moved here and want the team to do well but to throw star status at Flynn Rubio and Ellington is beyond premature and silly.
LT - the only way that Rubio never plays here is if he’s traded. And if that’s the case, we’re getting back a good asset or assets. Nice try though.
Logical - that take is oozing with stuff I need to refute:
1. Chauncey Billups? Not a star? Further, nearly everybody of importance on that roster was better than Foye and Miller.
2. Even if I give you credit for Detroit being void of stars, are you really going to base your argument on the exception and not the rule? I’ll take the rule and happily let you take the exception in that 7-game series we’re going to play.
3. I agree that you need all of your players playing together… that’s about as obvious a statement as, “The Sky is Blue.” Yeah… I get that. But did you see Foye and Miller playing great team ball last year? Are we shedding some major pillar of team chemistry in moving those guys?
4. Who said Wayne Ellington was going to be a star, Logical? I’m the biggest Wayne Ellington advocate on this board, so I’m certain I would have noticed if somebody was trumpeting Wayne Ellington as a star.
Again, you just go ahead and build your squad with 6th-men.
No one is saying they are stars. Just that they may be stars. Right now we don’t know if anyone in the 2009 class is a superstar. But I certainly think there will be one or two. I like the odds (which are never high) that we may have one in Rubio or Flynn.
Gendo I’m basing Foye being a nice player on his play his rookie year with KG and his January with Big AL as a primary player. He’s not a star by any means but can be an excellent complimentary guy. You need them too. They aren’t easy to come by just ask Cleveland.
Rodman that’s all I’m saying also. It’s just that in a historically bad draft I’m hearing “star super star” steady. Just trying to understand why.
To me, McHale spent years trying to get solid guys to fill roles. But what we haven’t had for years is a backcourt star (Cassell and Spree that one season). Someone who can take care of business at the end of games. That’s why I like what Kahn did. He rolled the dice and made a play for these two picks. I hope one pans out.
I spent time in DC and followed Wiz they couldn’t wait to get out of this draft. Their front office and media feel they fleeced Kahn. Draft night is exciting but you play next winter and winning is the only thing.
Gendo - I agree that this Hedo signing will be puzzling a couple years down the road. The Blazers were a 54-win team without him, so I can see how they are in “GO FOR IT” mode.
Hedo is such a good facilitator and the type of guy who really “fits” with a multitude of team types, but he’s over 30 and just got a long-term, ton-of-cash contract… More times than not, those contracts hurt a team late in the contract.
But, again, as a 54-win team, I can really see why Portland would do that deal. I’m putting them on 60 wins next year and the Western Conference finals.
I agree on Spree and Sam. Solid vet guys neither a star but both seasoned and mentally tough. That is what I’m saying, these young pups are so unproven and don’t have a track record as stars.
Logical - “Winning is the only thing” for a team composed like The Wizards are.
Building a respectable franchise from the ground up is the only thing for Minnesota.
We need to get a player or two on the level of Hibachi, Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison before we’re going to have a reasonable shot to be a winning squad.
Different franchises in different places in their developments - you’re comparing apples to oranges.
Don’t forget, though, that KG was here first… then we added Sam and Spree to complement his game.
It usually, but not always, has to go that way. When you get a chance to pick up a star, you have to do it even though you can’t always pick what position that star plays.
So the common, proven route is to find your star, then supplement him with pieces that fit. It’s just the truth that finding complementary players (though not a cinch) is a lot easier than finding stars.
Hedo is a nice player who is a roll guy. He’s not a spot up shooter and plays better with ball in his hands. Defense has always been his down fall. That is why Spurs didn’t play or keep him. Hedo better take Joel P and Oden out to dinner steady cause they’ll be blocking the shot of the guy who just blew by him.
Foo agree on star first all the way. We all understand that stars are made on the court not in chat room banter. My point has been that this team presently assembled will have a hard time winning 15 games. All you’ve taught your youngsters to do is get beat. You don’t consider Big AL a rising star??
Logical -
Just to go back to your analogy of the Pistons. They didn’t have any superstars that’s true, but four of their starting five made the all-star team so I’d say they were pretty good. Last time I checked neither Foye or Miller have ever been all-stars.
Hedo’s better on defense than people give him credit for. Orlando wouldn’t have had the 5th best defense in the league if Hedo was that much of a liability.
Plus he can do…everything. Shoot, rebound, dribble, pass…he’s prefect on the pick and roll, can create shots from himself and others, can create all sorts of mismatches…this is a good signing by the Blazers. They now have a reliable third option on offense and a guy who can take some of the leadership and playmaking burden off of Roy.
Definitely a good signing by The Blazers. A 54-win team cannot stand pat with what it has… you gotta add whatever you can because the championship-contending window typically closes pretty quickly.
That said:
1. The contract will probably not look very good 4-5 years from now.
2. I’d be interested to see what the corresponding moves will be in Portland because their roster is just as inbalanced as The Wolves’ right now.
Mark…When Detroit won only one player had made an all star team . Do you know who?
And really, the Blazers almost had to make that signing, because just standing pat and letting the team grow a year would have put them further behind the other contenders. The Spurs traded for Richard Jefferson and are frontrunners for Rasheed Wallace, the Lakers just got Ron Artest. Gotta stay competitive.
In five years, yes, Hedo will be too old to be much more than a 4th or 5th option, but at the same time, Roy, Aldridge and Oden will all be just entering their primes. THey’ll be in a position to sign another big time free agent to replace Hedo, and having spent 4-5 years as a very competitive ballclub will only have helped the young kids grow up that much better.
Hedo is a DONE DEAL!
I honestly wouldn’t trade our whole team for Washington’s. That team is capped out and has no chance of winning anything.
At least we have a shot at building something.
Hedo has pulled the plug on negotiations with the Blazers and is heading out of town:
http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2009/07/hedo_turkoglu_rejects_blazers.html
[sad trombone]
No Hedo for the Blazers, apparently. If they can’t sign him, they are in a weird spot. They probably need one more significant piece to be truly championship caliber, and they will only have cap space this year. (Next year their big extensions will start to come).
As a topic of conversation: would they be interested in Al Jefferson? On the one hand, they could use someone who can get them something in the post offensively, on the other hand, they really seem to be focused on getting someone who can take some of the shot creation pressure off of Roy.
Please understand, I’m not advocating it, but what would it take from them for you to start thinking about it? Since they can take back more salary than they send out, we could wind up with even more cap flexibility. Again, I’m not for it, just making conversation. Say, Pryzbilla, Fernandez, and…?
The Wiz could be a 50 win team in the East but they won’t beat Orlando, Boston or Cleveland in the playoffs
Eric, they might want Jefferson but they have Lamarcus Aldridge who averaged 18 and 8, I might do it for Aldridge, Fernandez and maybe Jerred Bayless or Outlaw, but they would have to take Cardinal and Telfair off our hands
No doubt, they love Aldridge. He’s a different player though–much less post. I would do that deal you suggest, but I don’t think Portland would. I suspect if they were interested it would be as part of a 3-some of Al, Oden, and LMA in the frontcourt.
I doubt it’s possible, but it’s sort of fun to try to put it together.
For Pryz, Fernandez, and Batum (a real young comer at SF)? The problem is I don’t like Pryz much, though he did play alot for a pretty good team last year.
Trading Big Al would be a major mistake. He’s a budding super star and that’s been shown not speculated about. Low post scorers are a dying breed. Don’t get high jacked with emotion to trade everyone. already gave up 2 solid NBA players in hopes that a frail, non shooting guard can be the answer. Risky …. The Wolves have more cap flexibility than they can use now for the next 3 years.
LT– I generally agree. I ain’t shopping him if I’m Kahn, either.
Still, it wouldn’t entirely surprise me if he’s gone in the next 15 months. Just speculating, and it’s not like he’s said anything bad about him, but it seems like Kahn wants to get to an uptempo pace, which really isn’t Jeff’s forte. Not that having a guy who can get you something in the half court is a bad thing.
I agree with you–he’s a star. Not perfect, but a star. His post abilities are remarkable.
Yeah, at this point I would have to be blown away to trade Jefferson and after his injury no one wants him right now until they see he can play just as good as last year. If they want Love for Aldridge I would do that, but I don’t think they would do that either
So Turkoglu to Toronto and then maybe the Blazers will go after Shawn Marion
Marion? Yikes, I wouldn’t touch that guy. Apparently, one of the Blazer reporters thinks they might go after Gerald Wallace.
“already gave up 2 solid NBA players in hopes that a frail, non shooting guard can be the answer. Risky”
I would be interested in any statistical case you can make to back up your assertion that Foye is a solid NBA player.
Various comments:
1. Talk of trading Al is foolish because Al is exactly the type of player every team needs and most don’t have. He’s a dominant go-to guy in the post. Do you know how much that is worth?
2. Just because he plays the same position doesn’t mean Kevin Love can replace Al. Love is the luxury, not Big Al. Al is a star. We have a star. Not a superstar, but a star. Love is a role player…a guy who will complement stars. He’s very expendable.
3. Foye and Miller. As Foo says, you dump those guys to get a potential star. They would never be a part of making the T’Wolves a good team again. Great trade for Washington, great trade for us.
4. If Rubio isn’t there, you get Evans and Flynn or Harden and Flynn. You don’t get Curry, because he grades out to be very slightly better than Foye (eventually), and why would you give up a valuable contract like Miller’s for that?
5. Assuming they’re healthy, the Wolves don’t look worse than last year. Foye and Miller get replaced by Al, Brewer, Flynn, and Ellington (and some Wash help). That’s without Rubio. If McHale’s coaching, that’s a 33+ win team. We got 24 last year with Al down the second half. The new coach might not “win” as well, as he might be concentrating on the long-term. I guess I’m saying, we might be bad, but there’s the chance there to be respectable.
Eric hit the nail on the head. The Blazers would definitely be interested in Jefferson, for a couple of reasons. First, he’s a pure post scorer and much better in that regard than Aldridge. LaMarcus is a good player, but his game is more like David West or Pau Gasol. Also, the Blazers play one of the slowest paces in the league, and are built for a guy like Al much more than Aldridge…halfcourt, tons of shooters.
Likewise, Aldridge would be a much better fit next to Rubio and Flynn…he’s not as good a pure post scorer, but he’s quicker, longer, more athletic, and runs the floor much much better.
I don’t think the Blazers would take Al for Aldridge because of Al’s injury and salary. But if they were willing to talk that deal, I’d definitely listen.
As for Hedo, if the problem is money (and it looks like it is), then we’re in an excellent position to help them out and get Fernandez in the process. Make it a salary dump or just take in more contract money than we ship out. I’m sure the Blazers would love to unload contracts like Outlaw and Steve Blake.
Bryan- we would have to get more back than just an Al for Aldridge trade. Turkoglu to Toronto sounds likely now, Ric Bucher said that on ESPN, because they will give him 6 million more than Portland after they renounce Parker and Marion.
I hope that Brewer is healthy I loved him at Florida. My concern with next year is that Flynn and Ellington will not be able to play make from the perimeter at a NBA level. I love Flynn for his toughness and grit… decision making is an area he needs to improve. Not an Ellington fan at all…. One trick pony he can shoot it. That is however a good skill to have if you’ve only got one. I fear that those 2 guys will be in over their heads and get beaten down by league. Once you lose confidence it’s hard to get it back.
Logical- I think your on to something there but I also think a big factor is that those guys will probably have to get used to losing, they won a lot of games in college and had a lot of success, especially Ellington so losing 4 out of 5 games is going to be hard on them
of course they will be in over their heads, they’re rookies. it’ll be a rough couple months initially for both of them, it depends on if it motiviates or beats them down.
hedo is looking for money, thats it. i don’t think he cares about much else-where he winds up–as long as he gets his $.
Yeah Arenal and Toronto is offering him the most so he will probably take that.
does that mean A. Parker is available? he could be a decent addition for our front court (for th eright price). He is a clutch shooter.
Cavs are pushing hard for Anthony Parker, is what I read, because they lost out on Artest and Ariza, they want a bigger guard to play with M. Williams in the back court and bring west off the bench
You know I missed this along the way. But I saw Ricky Rubio in a Gillette commercial with Tiger Woods and Roger Federer.
He’s coming over this year. If he’s gotten some endorsements already… that’s a very good sign.
Does he even shave yet, lol
This twins game is crazy right now, they need a big come back again
A 16 inning loss, tough loss for the Twins
I heard during the broadcast tonight that the Twins are encouraging Span to stop taking so many walks and to be more aggressive at the plate.
welp.
Your Minnesota Twins brain trust, ladies and gentlemen.
yeah a walk is just as good as a single and he is the lead off guy, so getting on base is what he is supposed to do
A couple of responses,
1. You don’t trade a low post score for a wing player unless it is a Kobe or Lebron type player. So no Al for Aldrige.
2. Rudy F. will be cheap Portland is not in love with the guy. Also would you trade the #6 pick in next years draft for him. If not why would you trade Flynn for Rudy, Flynn hasn’t played in the NBA so he is an unknown just like next years 6th pick.
3. Lastly, on Miller and Foye, Miller was and is a good player (no D like most shooters). But he plays better with better talent, so he is better off somewhere else. We were not going to resign him, so all we lost was his expiring contract. Foye was in a similar situation as someone above mentioned he was getting starters minutes so he would have gotten a starters second contract. That would be paying too much for someone who should be a roll player. So we dumped two player who we were not going to resign to get an asset who we could trade (if indeed he doesn’t play here) for better than a #5 draft choice that we got for those two players. That is a good trade for the Wolves.
LaMarcus Aldridge is a post player. Not as good a pure post scorer as Al, but still effective. And what he lacks comparatively in the low block, he makes up for with his greater physical abilities.
Also, he’s incredibly skilled. His game is very reminiscent of a young Pau Gasol, in that he can do everything well.
I think we have to consider getting someone like him on the team if Rubio is going to be the franchise. Whether that means trading for Aldrige or signing a free agent like Chris Bosh or drafting a guy like Derrick Favors or Ed Davis…I don’t know. But to just grind it out in the halfcourt all the time…that wastes a lot of what both Rubio and Flynn can do. It’d be like having Nash or Kidd and never getting out on the fastbreak. What a waste that’d be.
Oh, and on that note, another guy I’m very high on in next year’s draft is JaJuan Johnson from Purdue. He’s Chris Bosh 2.0, and an athletic big man that would really complement Rubio well.
I’d love to get a shot at Favors or Davis, but they might be out of our range.
Of course, Johnson could be too if he develops as much this year as he did last year…
How many fast-break, transition points do you see with all five players running down the court? It’s usually the backcourt and a wing running the floor, so I don’t see how Al PRECLUDES us from using the transition skills that folks like Rubio, Flynn, Telfair and Brewer bring to the table.
You gotta play in the half-court probably 85-90 percent of the time, so I’m not overly concerned that Al isn’t a running-big like Amare Stoudamire, who I would never take over Big Al anyway.
And, speaking of the halfcourt game, I think Al Jefferson is a great fit for any team… I think it’s pretty faulty to assume that Ricky Rubio is only able to be successful with transition-flyers at his disposal. He’s also pretty good in the halfcourt game, you know…
Al is still a kid and he needs to round out his game. But it’s incredibly rare to have a guy with great hands like Al, who you can just about always dump the ball down to and basically assume he’ll either score or get fouled.
Bryan, how could anyone be out of our range at this point? Aren’t we basically in a position to have the worst record in the league next year if Rubio does not come over and we don’t trade him? I haven’t heard anyone offer a plausible theory about how the Wolves will score enough points to win a game with their current roster. Flynn was a 31% three point shooter last year. There is no one else to prevent teams from swarming Jefferson in the post.
Also, I wouldn’t trade Jefferson. If you put shooters around him to loosen up the paint, he gets easy points, and his defense will improve. Even though he is a little undersized, he has a long wing-span. He just needs to play his natural position. They need to compliment Jefferson’s game by playing him alongside a legitimate defensive presence in the middle.
Miller’s gone because he couldn’t make enough 3s when he was wide open. Even Carney could do that. Foye is gone because he can’t make accurate, routine passes, he can’t guard other point guards, and he can’t go to his left. Nevertheless, Foye did show a lot of potential and I would not be surprised to see him bloom late, the same way Billips did — especially under Flip’s coaching.
It was a good trade for the Wolves. At a minimum we should be able to trade Rubio for better players than Foye and Miller. But they should keep Rubio.
Also, after watching a little film of Rubio I think he will be a fine outside shooter. Just as good as Randy Foye, and probably much better in a couple of years.
Mike - I’d be OK with bringing back Rodney Carney for the league minimum. He has huge holes in his games, but seemed to be a nice fit for a minor role.
Unless they sign Von Wafer or a better shooting guard, I think they should bring back Rodney Carney for a similar short term deal like they signed with Gomes, Craig Smith, and Telfair last summer (who I think all signed well below the MLE). Carney’s three point percentage was one point lower than Foye’s, and his regular percentage was a point higher than Foye’s. Carney played half the minutes, so if you factor that in, his other productivity was about the same as Foye’s. And he’s like two-three inches taller than Foye so he should be a better defender at the two. Carney can’t really penetrate but he won’t need to with Flynn at the point. Carney and Ellington can audition for who will be our back-up shooting guard in 2010.
Carney basically brings a lot of same things DeMar DeRozan would except that DeRozan is much more physical and has a much better mid-range game. Carney though is a far better outside shooter. Carney may be the better fit at the two guard playing alongside a penetrator like Jonny Flynn.
A key for a team with Rubio is to have bigs who can run the floor during fast breaks and get to the rim for put backs. That was Marc Gasol’s game during the 08 Olympics. That has not been Big Al’s game.
Foo what does Rubio do in the half court game that you consider “good”?
I’d be OK with Carney filling the roster on a 1 year deal. I have zero interest in committing any dollars to him beyond that point.
As much as I agree that Fernandez would be a good fit for the Wolves to raise Rubio’s comfort level in MN and play solidly as a SG, I think the issue is more on Rubio getting out of his currect contract. If that happens and he clearly indicates that he doesn’t want to play in MN, then lets find a way to bring in a player who helps the team in both convincing Rubio to come and with on the court contributions.
One trade that would work from salary stand point: Smith and Cardinal for Fernandes and Pryzbilla
And barring any better signings or trades for SG, Carney would be a fine option to bring back for one more season.
I totally disagree that for Rubio to be a success he needs bigs running on the fast break.
If you think that Rubio is nothing more than a runner, then I can understand why you wouldn’t like that draft pick.
He’s very good in the halfcourt, though, IMO. And besides, it’s Rubio’s job to fit in with Al’s strengths… not vice-versa.
Carney - 1 year deal at the league minimum. Nothing more.
BTW… Happy 4th of July to everybody. I’m off to sit on the Ocean and nurse my sunburn.
The few games I’ve been able to get on Rubio I didn’t see much in the half court game to suggest he can play well with AL. Rubio is very dynamic in the break but without a reliable 20 foot jumper he is a ball holder looking to drive in half court. He is good in pick-roll though. I hear all these things Rubio does but I haven’t seen them. It’s hard to get Euro league games even from the NBA channel. Someone wrote he plays sweet D…. THat would excite me greatly. What I’ve seen defense is a liability .
Stuff I’ve just read on this board is that he shot nearly 40% from 3-point range and was a 2-time league defensive POY.
If all he could do is run the break, a la Marcus Banks, then I’m fairly certain he wouldn’t have been drafted when he was.
Saying all he can do is run the break is about as naive as saying that all Ellington can do is shoot.
Pretty sure y’all are being trolled, kids.
Al and up-tempo are not mutually exclusive. Al and Love should be able to gobble up rebounds and outlet to Rubio and/or Flynn. Rubio or Flynn push pace with Brewer or Ellington. Breaks are usually 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. If it’s stopped, then…
…you dump the ball down low to your low-post scoring machine (Al).
glad to hear that someone said he shot 40% from 3. How would you get his stats? He didn’t shoot a 3 in the 3 games I saw. How many did he shoot a game on average? What league was he defensive player of the year in and when? or is this typical board chatter without facts? Adam Morrison was taken 3 when all he could do was shoot. What does his draft order have to do with what he can do? Foo list Ellingtons’ strengths for us since you seem to be championing his cause. I’ve seen him play since high school many many times. I was out east until recently. Missed the multi skilled defensive guy you seem to be seeing.
“or is this typical board chatter without facts”
Speaking of which still waiting for you to provide some substantiation to your assertion that Foye is a solid player despite all statistical evidence showing otherwise.
Marcus Banks could not run the break very well. He always pulled up if he sensed any resistance.
The Spanish Olympic team was all about up tempo play, ball motion, player motion, and great outside shooting. Rubio was the facilitator. The tempo and motion created put back opportunities for the bigs that got to the rim. I believe that playing that style of basketball would best utilize Rubio’s talents.
Foye averaged over 16 pts a game and over 4 ast last year and was first team all rookie actual not “we hope or expect”. Name 20 players that averaged over 16 and 4.
What Tomxx said.
I’m not saying we need to be the Suns, where our bigs just book it down the floor. I’m saying we need to be the Spurs or Lakers where our bigs are mobile.
The problem with Al in the halfcourt game is he doesn’t move. At all. He gets position and then just sits there waiting for an entry pass.
We need a big like Gasol or Duncan who will get in motion, set screens, cut to the hoop, move the ball and go for the occasional ally-oop. Like what KG used to do for us. Rubio’s passing does us no good if everyone just stands there.
-Logical thinker
Are you asking for rookies who averaged 16-4 or just players who averaged 16-4 in general? Because if it’s the latter, it’s going to be a lot longer list than just 20.
to logical thinker:
over 16-4… umm…
1. kobe
2. lebron
3. deron williams
4. chris paul
5. kevin martin
6. dwade
7. pau gasol
8. steve nash
9. dwight howard
10. devin harris
11. al jefferson
12. paul pierce
13. dirk
14. tim duncan
15. tony parker
16. kevin durant
17. andre iguodala
18. jameer nelson
19. yao ming
20. chauncey billups
Prrrobably could have named 30.. think logically, 16-4 is not rare nor is it indicative of being effective.
Even if you’re just talking 16 points and specifically 4 assists:
1)Chauncey Billups
2)Kobe Bryant
3)Vince Carter
4)Monta Ellis
5)Pau Gasol
6)Rip Hamilton
7)Devin Harris
8)Andre Iguodala
9)Allen Iverson
10)Stephen Jackson
11)LeBron James
12)Joe Johnson
13)Tracy McGrady
14)Andre Miller
15)Steve Nash
16)Jameer Nelson
17)Tony Parker
18)Chris Paul
19)Paul Pierce
20)Nate Robinson
And that only takes us to the start of ‘R’, so we’re not even getting to Derrick Rose, Brandon Roy, Jason Terry, Hedo Turkoglu, Dwyane Wade, Russell Westbrook, or Deron and Mo Williams….
That is over 4 ast . Big AL Gasol Ming Howard Timmy ???????? Lets shoot for accuracy
I think logical is basically saying - oh look, Foye is a ’sure thing’ with his 16 points and 4 assists (granted, he put up way too many shots and was a detriment on offense just to get to that point, and he was our starting PG for much of the year, so he really should have more than 4 assists…) with his below average defense and … you get the idea.
for the record, here is rubio’s link on draft express showing his 40% 3p shooting, and if you do some searching around, you’ll all find he was spanish league defensive playero of the year in 2009 (not sure about his other times).
what search engine are you using Bryan?
No search engine.
-Logical thinker
You didn’t specify what the ‘4′ was. We could have taken that to mean 16 points and 4 rebounds, and now you’re talking half the league.
But as you can see, even the list of 16ppg and 4apg is much much longer than 20 players. And that’s not counting guys like Ginobili or Melo, who were so close to 16-4 they might as well be included. Or Rondo or Mike Conley who proved they could easily be 16-4 players given the opportunity.
Anyone think the wolves will go after a guy like Wallace with Cardinal and Smith?
I think it would take a lot more than that to pry GForce away from the Cats. I’f we could make it happen though, I’d be all for it.
I’m still hoping we make a play for Fernandez, even though Hedo’s deal fell through.
Bryan - what if we threw in a future 1st rounder (maybe the Jazz pick)?
and I think the reason they do that trade is due to the fact they might want to be players in the FA market in 2010, and taking 10 mill off the books in Wallace might make it possible for them to sign a stud FA.
What do you guys think about Shawn Marion?! With Hedo signing with Toronto he and Delfino are definetly on the market now…
I think Gendo is right… we are all being trolled by Logical Thinker.
Nobody could seriously make some of those arguments without just trying to get a response from the board… and he has been successful.
I’ve put him in a box over his suggestion that you should just collect as many 6th-men as possible (and he didn’t respond) and Gendo put him in a box over Foye’s effectiveness (and he hasn’t responded to that either).
I have to admit that I’m a little slow on spotting trollers and I bite on nearly everything that is posted. So if the board would help me spotting trollers, I would appreciate it.
I have no interest in Marion, but I think it’s gonna be interesting to see how much certain FAs sign for in the next few weeks. Portland and OKC are the only two teams with any cap space still and OKC has said they are far more likely to stand pat.
So guys like Millsaps, Marion, Iverson, David Lee, Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, Marvin Willians, Raymond Felton and Mike Bibby won’t get a ton of cash.
BTW… with Ben Gordon off to Motown, I kind of think that Allen Iverson would be a nice fit in Chicago.
Millsap I expect to return to the Jazz, although I have said I’d be willing to talk Love for Millsap. But with Okur, Korver, and Boozer all staying in their current contracts, Millsap is the only free agent Utah has to worry about this year, and I’d bet they’re willing to go over the cap to retain him and cash in on their cap space next year.
None of the other big name free agents this year interest me.
You like Millsap more than Love?
Foo,
Congratulations on your comment (on Ellington making the second team all rookie) being immortalized in the print edition today.
If I was Milsap, I would try to find some place else to play. He only had minutes on the past season when Boozer was injured. I really think he could be a lot more usefull in other team.
I think Love is going to be the better player (although it’s a lot closer than I think Wolves fans realize)…but I think Millsap is the more ideal sixth man and offers something tangibly different than Al that would make him worth the money he commands versus what Love will command.
And I Millsap stays in Utah, he’ll get tons of minutes…probably even a starter’s role…when Boozer leaves next summer. So playing time isn’t a concern there.
As I stated make me a list of players that averaged over 16 pts and over 4 assists. Then look at the quality of that list and tell me Foye is a bum. What I’m saying is he’s a nice player to compliment Big Al who is a budding star. Foo you never answered about Al being a star. So when people have a different opinion than you they’re trolling. Way to be open minded and look at things from a different view point.
All of those players average far more points, rebounds, and/or assists, and shoot much better than Foye.
Ya, being on the same list as Deron Williams is nice….until you realize Williams averages 20-10 on 47% shooting. That’s 4 extra ppg and over twice the assists as Foye. They’re very obviously not in the same tier for anyone who actually thinks things through logically.
Foye is a good player. A solid player. He’s not a dud. He’s not a bum. We’re just hoping for better. He easily can revive his career with a fresh start and the best coach of his career. We’re going to use the stats of a season when he had two coaches and our star player went down? Common on. Let’s use a little common sense. He’s had an injury plagued career and is just, literally getting his legs under him.
Don’t get so nit-picky folks. Would anyone really be surprised if Foye turned into an excellent 3 or 4th option? I know I won’t. He’s got a lot of talent.
But I do think that Ricky Rubio has a lot higher ceiling than Foye. I don’t need stats to tell me that. I just use my eyes and a little common sense.
Logical - Unless you’ve been posting under a different name previously, I’m not familiar with you outside of the past month or so…
And if you’d have been here outside of the past month, I think you would know that I am open to other opinions and have even done 180s in the past (Example 1A is my opinion of Stephen Curry, where I went from Hater No. 1 6 months ago to becoming a big fan prior to the draft). So when you suggest that I don’t have an open mind or that I don’t look at things from a different point of view, I apologize if I dismiss you as The Unreliable Narrator.
Specifically regarding your last post, though, hyperbole won’t be a very convincing argument around here. In other words, I’m fairly certain that nobody has called Randy Foye, as you assert, a “bum.”
The most common beef with Randy Foye in the past year-plus is that he’s probably best served as a 6th Man and, in a state of affairs for The Wolves, he was instead our top backcourt scorer.
… which brings us to the current topic at hand: moving a 6th-man type for a potential star like Rubio is a No-Brainer to just about everybody on this board, seemingly, except for you. The loss of Randy Foye incredibly insignificant. As Gendo stated (WITH STATS AND SUBSTANTIATION - you might try that sometime), Foye was incredibly inefficient in how he scored his points. So the 16-4 standard you keep returning to isn’t that impressive when you take a milisecond to consider how he got those numbers.
Suffice…
Rodman’s got the Foye argument pretty much down. I also made a 180 degree shift on Curry, but now I’m going back to Curry hater. If JJ Redick and Adam Morrison are barely surviving in this league, why about Curry suggests any difference?
Foye should be better than he is. I absolutely see what McHale was thinking when he picked Foye. A nice big strong point guard with a decent shot. Could put up all-star offensive numbers if he developed a pull-up midrange game. But he hasn’t come through. He was terrible at running the offense, his shooting was on par with Rodney Carney, and his defense is lackluster. I don’t know last year if his knee was affecting him still or not.
Foye has talent and is good, but if he’s your starting PG and best guard out there you’ve got problems. Its not a surprise that his best year was w/KG where he was not the focus and could play off better players. I think he’ll do well in Washington along w/Miller.
However, Rubio has the potential Foye does not. I think it will be a good trade for both teams as long as Rubio gets here and stays here.
Has anyone ever contemplated hiring Terrell Brandon as an assistant coach? The guy was about as gimpy and unathletic as they come, but his mid-range game was sick. I think Telfair and Flynn could both develop tremendously under his coaching. Is he too busy running the barber shop in Portland?
Thinking about this Hedo Reversal, I’m really curious about what The Blazers’ next move is.
It’s only slightly grounded, but I’m to predict that David Lee will at least sign a contract offer sheet with The Blazers… and I personally don’t believe The Knicks will want to match it because of the ramifications it will have on their ultimate gameplan geared towards the 2010 FA Class.
After they get Lee, I see a sign-and-trade with The 76ers for Andre Miller… if Andre Miller signs a contract starting at, say, $7M, then the following package would work for NBA Trade rules… Travis Outlaw, Patrick Mills, Jerryd Bayless FOR Andre Miller.
And if that trade can get done, check out this SICK 2-deep in Portland:
Andre Miller - Steve Blake
Brandon Roy - Rudy Fernandez
Nicolas Batum - Martell Webster
LaMarcus Aldridge - David Lee
Joel Przybilla - Greg Oden
I’ve got to think Portland’s been looking at something like this after Hedo bolted to Toronto.
I saw that Lee and Portland talk on Espn about an hour ago too:
but why sign Lee to a big contract if you got Aldridge, Oden and Pryzbilla, they would have to trade one of those guys or somebody isn’t getting any minutes and thats a lot of money for Lee to come off the bench, I think it would be a dumb signing and
oops forgot the last part, Lee apparently likes NY a lot and would prefer to stay there
Blake’s going to be involved in any sign and trade. The Wolves should try to work a deal with Golden State. They have plenty of wings and need some size.
Time will tell whether the Foye Miller trade was a good one or not. Just because everybody else on the board feels it was a good trade (according to Foo) surely doesn’t make me see something that is not there with Rubio. Potential to be very good- potential to struggle I see both. I watch as much basketball as I can and just don’t see the fit with Big Al. He needs shooters around him who can contain ball on D. I liked the idea of building around a post player with guys who compliment Al. It seems that a run and gun style is now being put in. Drafting two point guards who can’t play together just didn’t and still doesn’t make sense to me. The Ainge /D Johnson comparison was asinine by Kahn. Both ainge/Johnson were 6-6 . So I guess I just don’t see the direction of team. As far as D Lee goes I bet he ends up in NY. Great energy guy but not a player to over spend on…. One of those dreaded 6th men.
Logical.. yes.. pau, and big al and yao.. considering you never specified 4 assists. i would prove you ridiculous by listing those (easily) but bryan beat me to it.
I agree that the examples Kahn gave–Ainge/DJ (who weren’t 6″6′ but were both bigger than Flynn), Thomas/Dumars were silly. Of course, I don’t really buy Flynn as a star anyway, so I hope I’m wrong.
As for Foye…he’s not terrible. But it’s hard to see him as a centerpiece of a good team. He just doesn’t shoot well enough to be a big asset scoring, and he doesn’t do anything else well enough to hang his hat on.
We’ll see how he looks in what should be a better role for him in DC. It will be interesting to see what kind of contract he gets next. I think that was a big part of it–Kahn (rightly, IMO) didn’t want to get into a position where he might have to pay him a lot.
By the way, though I’m not interested enough to do it myself, finding a list of guys who went at least 16 and 4 isn’t the way to find Foye’s comparables, because it’s inevitable that such a list is going to be players who are almost all better than him.
The thing to do if you want to find his “peer group” based on these stats is to find all players who:
a) scored between 14-18 pts, and
b) averaged 3-5 assists, and
c) shot between 38%-43%
That’s his group.
The Blazers publicly are targeting David Lee now.
Blazers fans have told me though that that is unlikely to actually happen, because Lee is a restricted free agent and the team doesn’t want to be left out in limbo for two weeks waiting to see if the Knicks match or not.
More likely scenarios: Blazer fans say the team has a deal in place for both Kirk Hinrich and Andre Miller, and could go with either of those (although Gordon’s departure from the Bulls makes the Hinrich thing a little murky). They’re also considering a run at Gerald Wallace, and possibly even trying to clear the cap space to make a run at Odom.
But Hinrich and Miller…those are the two names to watch in Portland right now.
Your source for this info is Blazer fans? Wow, you even topped yourself in the level of stupidity you bring to this blog.
From ESPN
In the wake of losing Hedo Turkoglu, the Portland Trail Blazers have become engaged in serious discussions about making an offer to New York Knicks restricted free agent David Lee, ESPN.com learned Saturday.
From ChicagoNow
There’s no question Pritchard also is trying to figure out a way to get maximum cap room this summer to use for a free agent or in a trade. The Magic’s Hedo Turkoglu gets the most mention, but sources say Portland’s real target is Bulls point guard Kirk Hinrich.
At least I know I’ll never be as useless to this blog as you and your fat mama, eh Arenal?
Has anyone established whether or not the Twolves were targeting Rubio when it was trying to move up from its 5th pick prior to the draft? If so, there must have been some scouting done to convince folks in the organization that he was the right person. What scouting was done?
Obvious statement of the year:
“Potential to be very good- potential to struggle I see both”
Yes, Ricky Rubio could do both. Thank you, Captain Obvious. Is anybody saying that Rubio is a sure-fire star?
Sounds like Anthony Parker is going to have a lot of suitors out there… what do you guys think about Carlos Delfino? He was also renounced by The Raptors… seems to be a decent all-around SG - nothing great about him, nothing bad either. Maybe $2M per year for those of you folks looking to add another body at SG??
Regarding the discussion of Millsap vs. Love - it’s a pretty interesting comparison, particularly when you look only at statistics. Though Millsap averaged 13-8 with 30 mpg, I was pretty impressed that he averaged 1.0 blocks and 1.0 steals per game as well.
As rookies, I compared Craig Smith to Millsap because they were both undersized PFs who slipped into the 2nd-round, but it appears Millsap has passed Rhino by far. That said, if Rhino had 30 mpg, he’d have some pretty impressive numbers as well.
Love Advantages -
1. Far Superior Rebounder
2. Two inches taller than Millsap (listed 6-10 vs. 6-8… probably both an inch taller than they actually are)
3. Three years younger than Millsap
Millsap Advantages -
1. Numbers seem to indicate he’s a better defender, though Love’s blocks per minute averages are only slightly worse than Millsap’s.
Draws:
1. Scoring Potential
Folks are saying that Millsap is going to get $7M-$8M per year this off-season… I think Love will get more than that once his rookie contract is up. So it’s going to be interesting to see what The Wolves plan to do contractually with both Love and Al on the roster. I love both of those guys, but can we really afford to spend, say, $25M total per year on those two?
If we’re convinced that they are our PF-C tandem (which I am), then $25M total per year is a good deal. But it’s going to be critical to continue to add more perimeter defenders and to get a rotational defensive-minded center to come in off the bench.
I think Charlotte will listen to the right deal on one of their players. I think they want to see Felton back, as Augustin hasn’t proven himself. Felton will take at least 5 mill off the books. In addition, I think some of their guys are making too much money and they want to be players next year in addition to having a draft pick.
I really think this team will have a shot at one good FA next year. Even if we take on salary, we’ll have more than enough to sign a max deal, or 2 big contracts in the 10-15 mill range. I have wanted to trade with Charlotte for ages, and I think they have a couple pieces that would work.
Minn gets
Wallace
Mohammed
Charlotte gets
Cardinal
Gomes
Madsen/Smith
our Jazz pick
we get a decent C in Mohammed, a great SF for a guy like Rubio or Flynn (runs the floor, slashes to the basket, plays good defense, has a solid jumper), Charlotte gets a decent SF in Gomes to help with the loss of Wallace at a much cheaper price, cap relief in Cardinal and either Smith/Madsen and a Draft pick for next year.
medschool - I love the idea of getting Gerald Wallace in here.
But you’re dramatically underestimating how BADLY Charlotte wants to get rid of Nazr Muhammed. I believe that getting two useful players like Ryan Gomes and Craig Smith + the cap savings of moving both Muhammed and Wallace would be great plenty. No need to give them any draft picks.
That said, I’m not certain if I’d be willing to take on Muhammed, even if we did get Wallace out of the deal.
I do like the way you’re thinking though.
Foo
which is why I put in Madsen. take out the draft pick and how does the trade look? Mohammed isnt that terrible. at 10-15 minute per game he’s not so bad, and he only counts for about 6-7 mill next year. if anything, Taylor can buy him out and use the cap space.
“Only” counts for $6-7M next year? “Only”?
I like the foundation of the trade, but I’m just saying that I read so much around the trade deadline last year that Charlotte was desperate to get rid of Muhammed in the same way that Philly is desperate to move Dalembert.
If we are to take on multiple years of Muhammed (or Dalembert, for that matter), Charlotte is willing to hand-cuff a decent player to him and not ask for much in return beyond expiring contracts (which Cardinal, Gomes, Rhino and Madsen all are).
I like the structure of the trade… just think you’re giving up too much if we’re talking Muhammed. If Muhammed isn’t in the deal, I’d say we’d have to offer even more.
well things here have slowed down considerably over the last couple days, i guess no news is what it is. I hope everyone is having a safe holiday weekend.
Foo
I see what you are saying, but a) its taylors money, b) 7 mill is a lot less than the 12 mill that Dalambert is getting for about the same production, c) Wallace is just that darn good, d) muhammed comes off the books after next year anyway.
regarding next year, our salaries are less than 25 mill (just Telfair, Al Jeff, Love, Flynn, Elington I believe), which means we have 35-40 million in spending, plus the mid-level if needed. taking on 16 mill for a stud SF who fits perfectly with a run/gun system and a serviceable back up PF/C, while still having enough money to sign a Joe Johnson makes for a decent situation. we coudl sign him and still bring back some of our pieces at decent prices as well as sign some other guys to fill the roster. the starting 5 looks something like (if we sign Johnson say for 15-18 mill, which is what he should get for his age and production):
Flynn/Rubio
Johnson
Wallace
Love
Jefferson
with Muhammed, Songaila, Ellington and Telfair off the bench. that isnt a bad start to a playoff caliber team, especially if they add something special in the draft (say, Jerome Jordan or Aldrich and a wing).
^forgot about gomes, so add him and 4 mill to that and we’re still in good shape.
med school matt is killing it……
I would love wallace on this team….
I doubt joe johnson would want to come to minny though……
that is a great team if we can get johnson though!
Jerry,
I saw Rubio in a Gillete ad (any other sponsers?)… Is there any chance they say they’ll pick up part of his buyout so that they actually get some NBA action from their investment?
rubio in a gillete ad?
isn’t there some sort of rule that you have to be able to grow a beard before you are on a gillete comercial?
I think that Gillete ad is at least a yr old, so I wouldn’t take it into account when it comes to figuring out any sort of sign in regards to him playing over here next year.
LT:
That 16/4 you cited is basically meaningless. As I’ve explained before success in the NBA comes down to offensive efficiency. That is how efficiently a team converts possessions and opportunities into points.
Not all 16/4s are created equal. A player with a high offensive efficiency like Garnett is going to take far fewer touches to reach that level than Foye will. In fact, since Foye converts possessions to points at a rate significantly below NBA average he actually hurts the team when he shoots.
Judging players strictly by PPG is really outdated. You need to look at deeper statistical context to really understand the meaning of that measure.
Guys I think Gerald Wallace would be fool’s gold for this team. There are a lot of things to like about him, but with developing shooters in the backcourt they desperately need a high efficiency scorer at the 3. One who can get most of his points off of jumpers preferably.
Wallace has to slash to be effective as he’s an awful jump shooter (31.7% on 2 point jumpers, 29.8% on 3 point jumpers).
They need much more shooting from that position, imo.
The main concern with Wallace is his concussions. Another one could be career-ending.
His shooting is suspect but I don’t think that’s a huge problem. He scores in so many different ways. More importantly for us, is he’s athletic and an incredible defender.
Gendo the bottom line is not many players get 16 and 4. You can poo poo it all you want but you asked for a stat to show Foye was a solid player. In euro league competition (which is different from standard league play in Europe) Rubio averaged 2pts 2 ast & 2 to’s. Now that should concern you more than a guy getting over 16 & 4 ASSISTS. Wanted to make the ASSISTS plain to see. Euro league is very good. I was lucky enough to have played in Europe vs Euro League teams. The teams I was on never qualified for Euro league play. That is why I respect any and all NBA players….. They can ALL play, some better than others, but they can get down and play. By the way you couldn’t come up with 20 could you? P pierce averaged 3.6 ast… Manu didn’t do it. So please show some respect to a player that could spank both you & I on our best days
Logical - so now you’re impressed by a guy who gets 4 assists per game while playing a large chunk of minutes as the team’s PG? Isn’t a guy who plays significant minutes at PG supposed to get 4 assists in his sleep?
And a new milestone of your ridiculous Foye rant… he could “spank both you & I on our best days.” So that means he’s a good NBA starter?
You’re getting colder… colder… colder…
Medschool - Nazr Muhammed has 2 years left on his contract. AWFUL. I’d take him, but I would fully intend to hijack Charlotte in exchange.
The Bobcats would get rid of that stiff in a heartbeat if they had the chance… no need to give away the farm.
Yeah… four concussions so far for Gerald Wallace. That’s scary, considering he has four guaranteed years left on his deal (assuming he exercises his player option in Year 4). But if he was cleared medically, his defense and rebounding are elite for his position and he’s a multi-faceted scorer as well.
No Foo that was a stat to show that in a scoring/ast combination Foye was in the top 20. Nothing more nothing less. The 2’s across the board for your boy Rubio should concern you more than Foye. Then add the Ellington is a well rounded player comment and you’re beyond cold, you’re frozen solid. Never did hear from you about his many talents I asked you to list. Take your time they are hard to come up with. You must be trolling????
LT, look up, Bryan had well over 20.
Gendo - the reason he works is because he can score off the break and can get to the rim and take foul shots. he works and compliments so well with Flynn and Rubio. if we need shooting, we can have ellington, brewer or Gomes sit back there and shoot it. and my ultimate goal is to get Johnson on this team, whose one of the better shooters in the entire NBA. What he does best is take high percentage shots, which is what this team needs.
Rubio can lead the break and he can run and score with it. Al can take on the double and hit him cutting to the basket. Flynn can slash to the hoop, draw a defender, and hit him on the weakside. He can slash and draw a defender and hit Ellington on the 3point line.
the possibilities are endless. and 10 mill is a bargain.
Foo
well said; and when he comes here, he’s coming to the state with the #2 hospital and medical research facility in the Mayo Clinic. can’t ask for anything better than that if he needs it. and I think with the officiating getting better he’ll hopefully avoid any more serious injuries.
regarding Muhammed, I reallyl don’t see what the big deal is. he has this year and next year. we have cap space if we trade away stuff to take him on this year, and next year he’s trade bait with his expiring contract or if needed, he can be bought out. again, there is only 25 mill on the books next year, and even with him and Wallace, we’d still have more than enough to sign a stud or 2 very good 2nd teir players. and its not like he doesnt have a pulse like Collins - he can score with some regularity and is at least an average rebounder and defender at the C.
LT
what 2’s are you talking about? last year in 20+ games against great euro league competition (at 17!!), he averaged 10 points, 6 assists, and over 2 steals. not bad for a guy who makes his TEAM better while annoying the heck out of the opposing PG.
and P peirce with 3.6 assists? thats an achievement considering he’s at the SF spot (and there is nothing small about him…).
you are the definition of a troller but at the off chance you aren’t, Foye is nothing more than a guy who shoots what he wants, when he wants. if he makes it, great, but he’s more of a detriment because he’s just jacking up shots or driblling between his legs instead of moving the ball. and he was our starting PG for many many games, of COURSE he should have at least 4 assists. the fact he was a starting PG (who lost his job to some journeyman 3rd stringer in Ollie) and couldn’t get at least 5 assists (which is half of what the old school true PG’s used to get) with shooters like Gomes and Brewer and studs like Al, Smith and Love on the low-block is shocking.
FYI Guys.
Euro ball tallies assists different than the NBA. Here you can take up to two dribbles before shooting and still have it count. In Europe, you can’t take any dribbles.
Conventional consensus is that you need to increase a Euro player’s assists by about 30-40% to get an accurate NBA read.
So it’s very reasonable to say Rubio legitimately averaged 10 assists/game last year.
medschoolmatt you are the definition of a troll and a med school flunkie. Why don’t you and your boyfriend Bryan set a wedding date?
Ahh, I see. Logical thinker is really Arenal using a name he came up with himself.
lol ^ foo, does that answer your question on whether or not he’s a troll?
Bryan - totally forgot about that. 10 assists is brilliant (although 3 TO’s isn’t so good).
The real logical thinker didn’t say that medschool. Don’t know Bryan. Lets not play child games guys. if you’ve got something to say man up and put your name on it. Again sorry some loser took a shot at you mdeschool.
A 10/3 assist/TO ratio is really good actually. Better than Kidd, Paul and Deron Williams last season and just slightly behind Steve Nash.
fair enough. we’re all adults here (I think).
Too bad this blog doesn’t have a registration system. Some clown keeps using other users’ screennames.
anyone see why Kahn is so quiet? is he waiting to pluck a cheap body off to play for a few minutes per game, or to see what the market is on a guy like Carney? he’s still got plenty of assets and a very unbalanced roster.
Medschool this is LT. The 2’s I’m talking about are his Euro league stats only. They play regular division games and the top 16 teams qualify for Euro league and the Euro league championship. In the Euro league stats only Rubio averaged 2’s. Atleast that is what the site I punched up on said. He averaged 10 pts 6 assists and 3 to’s in his regular league games ACD league… I think… Been some time since I was there and it all changes quickly. The best way I can explain it is a team will play both triple A ball and Major league ball. Those stats were from the Majors.
LT
fair, but that is looking at averages over only 5 games, and only 2 of which he played significant minutes in.
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=LFW
the games he actually played in (20+ minutes), he had respectable numbers. but how loose can you get only getting 20 minutes in euroleague?
Agree on stats for NBA players. Assists have gotten re-dick. I’m thinking about season tickets that is why I hooked up in this chat room. been an NBA fan for ever. Recently found myself in this beautiful state again. Want to have Wolves as my squad but was looking for the direction of team. Once here in chat room I found out if you don’t drink the Foo aid you get jumped on. To repeat: don’t see star in anything that Rubio HAS done so far . I see a ton of potential and promise. Watched Foye at Nova and liked him (Ellington played high school 2 miles from Nova). my point has been we traded 2 solid players for a guy who may never play here and in my opinion doesn’t compliment Big Al whom I love. Wonder how long I’d have to wait to see a competitive team if I pony up for tickets. That’s it folks … What about Minnesota Nice???
I’m with you on funky roster. Carney is a free agent I believe. I think he could sign with any team. Would be excited to see a signing or two this summer to make squad at least competitive this year. Am looking forward to Flynn and to see him play. He’s solid and tough. Hard to have the ball in your hands as a rookie. See where Sid Hart talked to Flip and he’s jacked to have Foye & miller. Hope they do well out there. From the outside looking in they both seemed liked good guys.
Wallace is going to sign with the Celtics:
l.a. vs. bos. is going to be one hell of a finals series…..
I’m very surprised he signed with Boston before hearing what the Spurs had to say. He’s great friends with KG, that’s true, but San Antonio could have offered him more money and a starter’s role, and he still would have been playing for a championship.
wallace and garnett will be a scary tandem at pf-c
seriously…..think about that front court!
Sheed, KG and Perkins will be an extremely difficult frontcourt to score against. On par with the Twin Towers Duncan/Robinson era in San Antonio.
It also gives the Celtics a legit rotation to match with the Lakers’ Gasol/Bynum/Odom trio.
I think the Celtics realized that, with the signing of Artest, the Lakers had made a clear step out in front of them. They must have offered something Sheed couldn’t turn down.
great signing by Boston. Sheed plays well about half the time lately and that is all Boston needs from him during the regular season. He’ll show up big in playoffs. Spurs with him and Jefferson would’ve been favorites. Has anyone heard if Brewer is playing in summer league? Who’s coaching team? Odd not to have coach in place yet. I’m sure Kahn is being beaten down by Dan Fegan, Rubio’s agent. Haven’t heard anything good about Fegan.
Bryan
He might have a shot at starting over perkins - imagine a Rondo, Allen, Pierce, KG, Wallance starting 5.
Sid did not seem to appreciate Kahn thinking outside the box in this morning’s column. That is surprising given his claims of thinking outside the box when he was the GM for the Lakers.
In 1955, with George Mikan and Jim Pollard retired the Sid was looking to trade Vern Mikkelson, a Hall of Fame power forward, for the rights of two former University of Kentucky stars, Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey. Because they were on active duty, they could not play the 1955 season.
Sid’s scheme was to have the team tank the 1955-6 season and thereby get the number 1 pick and the chance to draft Bill Russell. Ben Berger, the owner of the Lakers, rejected the trade.
Both Hagen and Ramsey became Hall of Fame players and Russell became a game changing player and the owner of 11 rings.
So, why can Sid not appreciate Kahn’s efforts?
Brewer will be with the team for summer league. Not sure if he’ll play or not…I’d guess he’ll play a game or two, but not all of them.
And Kahn quite honestly has Fegan outsmarted. It doesn’t matter what Fegan tries to do…Kahn pre-empted him by taking Flynn and saying he’s more than happy to wait a year or two for Rubio to make it here.
Fegan’s only leverage in getting Rubio to a big market was the threat that Rubio wouldn’t play this year, but that assumes we’d need him to, which we don’t.
As for Sheed, it’ll be interesting to see I guess. If I were Boston, I’d start Perkins still…he’s earned it, particularly with his showing against D12 in the playoffs, and he gives that lineup some badly needed size in the middle.
Plus, I think Sheed is more valuable to that team as a sixth man. He can fill in at both center and power forward…Perkins is strictly a center.
Boston will destroy LA again should they meet in the finals, only reason they won this year is b/c Orlando is weak/pathetic outside of DH. Boston is mean up and down their lineup. Look at what they did to Gasol all series long. Look at what they did to Kobe in game 6. put someone mean on Kobe and he shuts down. Kobe is a pansy.
KG will devour Bynum and Gasol. Neither of those guys have that killer instinct. Gasol is far to weak. Bynum is just to inexperienced and to often injured.
LT: why you assuming Kahn is being beaten down by Fegan? Fegan loses most of all 3 if Rubio does not play in the NBA this year or next. Wolves and Rubio both win, or lose alot less.
Tomxx: b/c memory is selective, thats why.
Fegan has played this game before. It’s the I can dictate where my clients play game. No one wins but Fegan loves to play it. He alienated Yi in Milwaukee doing the same thing. I heard Fegan told Kahn the day of the draft not to take Rubio. It doesn’t make sense but Fegan seems to take these things personal. It’ll make for interesting watching over the next 2 years. Rubio needs to stay over in Europe anyways so it’ll actually help him. He’s not ready for NBA now and maybe Fegan knows it and is posturing for a trade. Must be some reason???? If not.. why didn’t Fegan send the kid here to meet media and city the day after draft.??
Jerry Z, could you pull that post by the idiot pretending to be Logical thinker. The marry Brian one. Childish.
now that la has artest that team is deadly……really their only weakness is point guard……
I would say start garnett and wallace….
both play stellar d, can score inside, rebound very well, and can spread the floor out. the only way to stop that is a very physical center…..but the celts have perkins to throw at them…..
sid can’t even think straight anymore, let alone venture outside his personal trapezoid (funky box!)….(thats what he said)….
hate fegan with a passion…..I can’t stand the guy…..I hate him more than packer fans….yeah….that’s right…
I hope rubio does stay in europe for a year, and comes over to become a star..(dump fegan rubio……get an agent with some semblance of a soul please!)
we won’t know for a while though…..lets see what kahn can do with this PF log jam now….
Gasol, Odom, Bynum
vs.
Garnett, Wallace, Perkins
I will take LA
Kobe, Artest, Fisher/Farmar
vs.
Rondo, Allen, Pierce
EVEN
Finals, Laker Win and Clevland or Orlando may beat Boston, I don’t see anyone beating LA, maybe SA, maybe
Logical - You said:
“I found if you don’t drink the Foo did you get jumped on”
Pretty sure nobody agreed with you regarding your mourning over Foye leaving town. I understand you got yourself into a pickle by going with the overly-simplistic 16-4 argument without looking into how he got those stats. And that’s cool, I’m not going to hold you to that forever. But just admit that you were posting in a hurry and didn’t notice how inefficient he was in getting those surface-level stats.
But if you would rather avoid that necessary about-face and just blame me for being a big meany-head, then that’s OK too.
The point is that we’re discussing facts here, and while I like Foye for who he is, the fact is that he’s not somebody we should mourn losing if that’s what it takes to get such a great asset in Rubio.
Regarding Ellington, I think folks continue to stretch what I’m saying about him. He’s a shooter and that’s mostly it - but two things on that:
1. He’s a multi-faceted shooter - spot-up, mid-range, deep-range, off the dribble.
2. If you’re going to have one skill, isn’t shooting probably the most desirable to have? There are tons of folks who make a career out of that one skill.
C-note: you take gasol and bynum over KG? are you nuts? did you not see what KG did to gasol 2yrs ago? he beat the hell out of him, literally beat him to a pulp. Add in Wallace and Odom has his hands full. Bynum is to young to even have a chance.
Rondo will run circles around Fisher/Farmar and Pierce has already shut down Kobe and LeBron before. Not to mention Boston has a much better bench. much better.
No, Orlando doesn’t have a shot at beating the Celtics provided they are healthy. Cleveland-possibly but by then Shaq will be even older and the C’s have more than a few guys to throw at him. Cleveland has 2 guys, boston has 5 legit studs..yeah, boston wins that 7-series.
Portland, Denver, and SA have a shot to beat LA.
Foo
I disagree that Ellington is an off the dribble shooter in the NBA. Two things
1. His ball handling is average at best. This will lead to less opportunites to shoot off the dribble.
2. His release, when shooting off the dribble, is much too slow right now. He could improve this aspect of his game but as of right now that is a weakness. In college he shot over people, I don’t see that happening in the NBA.
The Wallace pick up is definitely the best FA signing. Celtics and Lakers gotta be the favorites for next year.
Sheed should help. I still wouldn’t call them favorites. Frankly, I’m not entirely sure their expiration date hasn’t already passed.
Garnett…I’m not convinced he’ll ever really be close to healthy again. He has a ton of mileage on those knees. All season, they thought it would get better, and it didn’t. That isn’t a good sign.
With the double-teams commanded by Jefferson/Love down low, Ellington could be a key catch & shoot weapon if they leave him open to bring an extra guy down low.
Joe…thats what Miller was suppose to do for us last year….
eric, Sounds like KG’s knee has been fixed… it wasn’t something rest could cure. No argument about the amount of mileage. But I think with the time off to heal with benefit him. No matter how old he is, no one is going be blocking his jumper. Think this year is all in for the Celts.
The window is closing rapidly.
“All season, they thought it would get better,”
False, Boston management didn’t. They said multiple times he was out for the season and playoffs. The media were the ones who portrayed he “might” be back.
jama - So all that Ellington did on the way to being the Final Four MOP was lazily sit on the perimeter jacking jumpers?
Nah… I know that’s not what you were saying, but his ability to shoot off the dribble was listed as one of his strengths by Chad Ford. In fact, I believe the listed strengths and weaknesses from his ESPN Draft profile is completely right on:
Positives:
*Big-time scorer
*Deep NBA 3-point range
*Can shoot off the dribble or on the catch-and-shoot
*Solid athlete
Negatives:
*He’s a little undersized for a 2-guard
*Needs to add strength
*Looks a little one-dimensional right now
*Not a great defender
He’s got a very hard-to-find NBA skill and will be productive because of it… but he won’t be a star - just a 2-guard with a long, productive career either as the sniper 2-guard or 6th-man.
As for your assertion that he won’t be able to shoot over people like he did in college, I agree that’s a common adjustment. But I believe his quick release coupled with his 38″ vertical will allow him to make the transition.
Whack–not false.
By the end, they were saying he wouldn’t be back. But he was out earlier, they thought he would be back, he actually tried, it didn’t work, they decided to rest him, they still said they hoped to have him back, and then at the end, when it became clear it wasn’t getting better, they said he was probably out for the whole playoffs. The media did keep speculating at that point.
I hope he’s better. My favorite player, no doubt. But at his age, with his mileage…we’ll see. I’m not saying he won’t play; I’m sure he will. But I’m not sold on him being healthy for any length of time.
Plenty of good collegiate shooters haven’t been able to transition to the NBA because they don’t have enough other game.
Yeah, Sean - that’s definitely true. But usually those guys are folks like Shawn Respert and Randolph Childress - SGs in PG bodies.
College shooters lacking athleticism often struggle as well.
But Ellington measured over 6-5 at the combine (plenty of height for a SG, though 6-6, 6-7 is better) and was one of the better athletes at the combine as well. Of course, those measurables need to translate into NBA production. But I don’t think size or athleticism (the two things that usually weed out college shooters from being productive in the NBA) will limit Ellington.
I do agree that his handle, defense and ability to get to the FT line need improvement for him to become a high-level NBA starter. Until then, he still has a lot of upside as a complementary scorer/sniper.
Ellington’s athleticism — while impressive in this year’s crop — isn’t out of the ordinary overall among NBA shooting guards. I just don’t see how Ellington has this extraordinary upside that separates him from the usual caliber of player selected in the late first-round.
fellas
Miller turned that shot down to often last season.
I think Ellington will shoot it and knock it down at a reasonable clip.
I do think we should have a look at Von Wafer as a FA. Short term (contract) to see if he can add to our one man SG rotation. (well 1.5 if you’re counting Brewer)
On all this Foye talk, I’m one who thinks Foye is solid. Yes a slash guard (i’m over the slash) with out a real position, he was a solid scorer with a developing O and is manageably liability on D. I do think he is a ideal 6th man in the league. I thought that he may be a asset to the Wolves with a pick of Evans being that he could guard 1’s and play the 2 with Evans countering.
But we no how that played out, SO?!
Foo
I know Ellington tested out well at the combine but you won’t see that athleticism when he plays. I think he was somewhat of a workout warrior at the combine. He actually looked less athletic than many of the players he went up against in the ACC.
I think his combine numbers were similar to what Troy Williamson did at the NFL combine. You won’t see that translation in the NBA.
And I didn’t say Ellington couldn’t shoot off the dribble. What I said was his release is slow when he shoots off the dribble and he will have trouble getting his shot off when shooting off the dribble due to that and the fact that he isn’t a very good ballhandler. It’s hard to shoot off the dribble when the guy steals it from you as soon as you put it on the floor.
Talking Ellington has brought up a different question for me. You could argue that one of the Wolves biggest problems last year was lack of athleticism. I know adding Flynn should solve some of the problem but aren’t the Wolves still lacking athleticism in the 2-4 spots? I know people think Ellington is athletic but wait until he plays and you’ll see what I mean.
Isn’t this team still greatly lacking athletes both starting and off the bench? It sounded like Kahn wants to play a little more uptempo, isn’t that the opposite of how the team is currently configured?
Sean - this is what I’m talking about… folks misunderstanding what I (and the other Ellington advocates) are saying.
PLEASE find any post of mine that says “extraordinary upside” regarding Ellington.
I’ve been very consistent in saying the following:
1. He has potential to be a 12-14 ppg scorer as a “Make-Em-Pay” perimeter shooter.
2. He’s got upside along the same lines of Foye’s (totally different players, but similar ceilings as a fringe-starter/6th-man).
3. Good chance to be a 2nd-team all-rookie performer, mostly because of opportunity and a weak rookie class.
4. He has potential to be the “star that nobody thought would be a star” (thereby acknowledging that it would be surprise if he’s ever a star).
I don’t get where folks are gleaning anything else from my posts. I’m a huge proponent of looking at players within the framework of realistic expectations. So am I optimistic about Wayne Ellington? Absolutely, yes. But only because he’s going to be one of the lowest-paid guys on our roster who was taken remarkably low in a remarkably thin draft.
In other words, if we can get some productive, reliable outside scoring from Ellington (and thereby free up a ton of space for Love and Al as well), then I’ll be absolutely thrilled.
Based on the dearth of outside shooters on this club, I believe Ellington’s shooting could be worth 4-5 wins next year. Not because he is worth 4-5 wins himself, but because of how any reliable outside shooter could affect how teams are forced to defend us.
jama - I watched a lot of UNC hoops (as we all did, I’m sure) and Ellington’s athleticism just isn’t on display because of his style. He’s a smooth, cerebral type of player, not a hyperactive slasher or spazz.
And you can’t call Ellington a Workout Warrior, brother. By definition, a Workout Warrior didn’t produce at a high-level in college and jumped onto the map solely due to his combine numbers.
I think you’ll agree that Ellington was highly productive at UNC despite playing against an incredibly-high level of competition in The ACC and having tons of other NBA players on the roster (Lawson, Green, Ed Davis, Hansborough…) Put Ellington at Davidson against far lower competition and nobody else on the roster to score and I believe he would have averaged close to 30 ppg like Stephen Curry did.
Foo — When I say “extraordinary”, I’m meaning “not normal”. What you suggest Ellington is capable of achieving is not normal for a guy picked where he is.
I agree with your comparison of Ellington to Curry. But I don’t think much of Curry as a NBA player, either, so I’m not sure if you’ll take that as a good thing or not. And I’m not sure that other teams are going to respect Ellington more than say, Mike Miller.
Foo
I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. When I say workout warrior I mean a guy that tests much higher than the way he plays, not that he came out of nowhere.
You said you watched a lot of UNC games, if that is the case you have to admit that you would not pair athleticism with Ellington. He had trouble dunking on breakaway’s, his latter movement is well below average and his straight line speed didn’t impress anyone.
I agree that Ellington could produce more than what you normally get from the #28 pick, but I don’t think that is saying much either.
Long term, Ellington is not a starter on even a marginal NBA playoff team. Ideally you would want him to be your 8th or 9th guy that comes in to do one thing, shoot.
I think people are expecting much more than that from him and they will be disappointed when he doesn’t reach that level. I think a good NBA comparison for Ellington is Dell Curry in his later years. You know you aren’t going to get much D but if he’s left open he will make you pay.
jama — You are right on with your expectation of Ellington — 8th or 9th guy. Nothing wrong with getting a player like that at #28. But we must go into the season with some better option at that position.
*That should read, his latteral movement is well below average.
Skimming through 200+ posts on this thread, i can’t believe that Foo has actually compared Ellington to Foye and Steph Curry? And that he might be worth 4 to 5 additional wins this year?! You sound about as intelligent as the current Wolves braintrust… Where’s LT when we need him? He’s about the only intelligent poster on here..
I agree totally with jama on Ellington.
Ellington hasn’t been an off the dribble shooter since high school, and he didn’t do it very well then. Adam Morrison as the third pick in the draft had the ability to shoot it in college too. That didn’t seem to help him.
Number 18, it’s good to see that someone else isn’t drinking the Foo-aid but is instead using his eyes.
Foo
I remember you saying “2nd team all rookie” on Ellington. For a guy who can’t dribble and isn’t a good defender that seems extraordinary to me.
Foo-
30 ppg! How many players in the last 10 years have averaged over 30 in the NCAA in a major or mid-major conference? Do you have any idea how hard that is? That’s just an outrageous, speculative comment.
so…..number 18=logical thinker….
foo is a little high on ellington…..but at least the guy using actual in game anyalisis instead of using skewed, archaic, and essentialy useless statistical anyalisis….(i felt pretty smart using those words….mispellings aside)
so who in the heck is going to coach this mess?
Yes, Logical, good memory - I said 2nd-team All-Rookie about 50 times now.
12-14 ppg if Ellington gets the minutes… I don’t think that’s much of a stretch. And, don’t forget, the whole basis of that was IF The Wolves don’t add another 2-guard. In that case our only 2-guards would be Ellington, Brewer (more of the 3) and Bobby Brown (more of a 1). So Ellington would get a lot of minutes and probably score some points.
And if a player averages 12-14 ppg in a weak, weak rookie class, 2nd-team all-rookie isn’t much of a stretch either.
Even if he doesn’t get those minutes, I believe he’ll score 6-8 ppg at an efficient rate because he shoots at a very high percentage and is conditioned to “fit” in rather than dominating the ball.
Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle - I say he’ll be an decent-to-average NBA scorer (12-14 ppg) who fills a nice role as the necessary “Make-Em-Pay” deep-range shooter; Logical believes he’s terrible. Perhaps he winds up in the 6-10 ppg range as a rookie. But I still say he’ll be efficient in hitting that mark.
OK, smarty-pants, what number would you put Ellington on at Davidson this year?
The FACT is that Ellington took almost half as many shots per game as Curry and half as many 3-pointers. Ellington shot 5% better from 3-point range than Curry and 3% better overall. With a higher shooting percentage and nearly half the shots, Ellington averaged 15.8 ppg compared to Curry’s 28.6 ppg.
Do you really think that Ellington’s scoring average wouldn’t sky-rocket if he doubled his shots against the far inferior competition that Curry faced?
So using your logic, what scoring-average figure would you give Ellington in that scenario? Give me a number if 30 is so ridiculous.
And, BTW, please don’t come back and say that I think Ellington is just as good as Ellington.
I’ve already gone on record saying that Curry is the far superior player. Curry gets the line better, has PG skills and can create his own shot much better than Ellington. But for scoring alone, Ellington is no slouch at all.
Argon makes a good point - who’s going to coach this mess?
Anyway, it would have been much more fun this year to see Flynn throwing assists to Foye/Miller/Jefferson, than talking about the #28 pick in the draft over and over and over…
Ok
This thread is dead….Foye’s gone, Deal Wid It!
Ellington great pick up at 28, time will tell on his NBA game.
So, Right, Coach? no rumors or anything floating?! Any body got there Espn insider rolling?
found this.
Paul in Minneapolis:
Any rumors about the new Wolves coach?
Bill Ingram:
Del Harris wants it in a bad way - and would probably be the best choice. That said, the Wolves have been talking to Mark Jackson extensively. Going on the cheap with an inexperienced coach rarely works out well.
Well hum?
…I liked the trade……I also am crazy enough to think the flynn/rubio combo could work…..but then again I haven’t seen the two of them play together……
lots of dream combos have been shattered in the past when reality set in…..sometimes two people just can’t work together….no matter how talented they are….
del harris??????
wow……what a blast from the past….didn’t he coach team china in the olympics??
“The FACT is that Ellington took almost half as many shots per game as Curry and half as many 3-pointers. Ellington shot 5% better from 3-point range than Curry and 3% better overall. With a higher shooting percentage and nearly half the shots, Ellington averaged 15.8 ppg compared to Curry’s 28.6 ppg.”
Yep. Rate stats always kick the tail out of cumulative stats any day of the week. Even though PPG kind of falls between the two it depends too much on attempts. As long as you have a sufficient sample size between the two you lean toward the rate stat every time.
Foo
You just don’t get it. Ellington can’t get that many shots because you have to be able to handle the ball and create those shots. That’s what makes Curry interesting.
Steve Kerr was a great shooter. He couldn’t get 20 shots a game at an NBA level because he couldn’t create his own shot.
Did you EVER play BB and try to get 20 shots per game?
That’s what made MJ and Kobe so great- They can get 25 shots anytime they want.
Please say something that shows a BB IQ so we can continue to discuss this.
The Wolves are going to have a ton of money next offseason and Rudy Gay will be a restricted free agent. If He doesn’t resign with Memphis the Wolves should make him their #1 priority next offseason. He would be dynamite and fill the much needed vacancy at the 2-spot.
Curry=overrated, he is going to get beatdown by the bigger, stronger, faster gaurds in this league over the next few seasons.
Sounds like Kahn is looking for a combination of young energy (i.e. Mark Jackson/Monty Williams) in the new coach and experience (Del harris) in the assistant. Harris may be a good fit as long as he is willing to take on the role of mentor/assistant and not looking to be the head coach. Although I wouldn’t mind having him as the head coach with Jackson/williams as the coach in training.
Gay is an interesting player, but I worry about his propensity to turn the ball over. I’d also like to see a higher eFG% on jumpers since a big part of his role would be to catch and shoot off of penetration from Flynn/Rubio.
I heard that Del Harris rumor last week and think it will be either him or Mark Jackson. Harris has been very effective as an assistant to new, young coaches. He was Avery Johnson’s assistant in Dallas and Vinny Del Negro’s assistant last year in Chicago. Two cases of rookie coaches needing a veteran guy. My preferred scenario would be Mark Jackson as head coach with Del Harris as his assistant but Harris won’t come out of retirement unless he gets to sit in the big chair.
Maybe there’s a chance they would switch roles? Harris as the head coach for a couple of years to teach the young guys and provide a veteran coaching presence and getting the final head coaching gig he’s been wanting. Jackson could be the assistant and teach our young PG’s. He would get the experience needed to finally land a head coaching job or could be groomed to take over after Harris leaves.
Harris has a reputation for getting walked all over by his players, which is part of why he became such a sought after #2 guy. Great basketball mind, but doesn’t have the personality to hold a team.
I think he’d make more sense as an assistant to either Jackson or Williams.
So bring in Williams and his morbid spirituality I guess.
Arenal-For the Lakers frontline vs. Boston frontline I was looking at it this way:
Bynum is better offensively, (he has some good post moves and getting more) than Perkins and defensively very close in defense(both averaging 2bpg in 30min) So I would want Bynum.
Gasol and Garnett are close
19 and 10 for Gasol, 16 and 9 for Garnett. And in the first game on Christmas they were pretty even and in the second game Garnett fouled out and Gasol went for 24, 14, and 3 ast on 10-14 shooting and the Lakers won both games so people say that Boston would kill them, I don’t think that would have been the case. Gasol is just entering his prime and KG is on the way down.
Same case, Odom is in his prime and Wallace is going to be 35! These are the reasons I would take the Lakers front line
Arenal- The lakers also didn’t have Ariza(for more than 2 minutes) and Rondo played bad in the Finals because he can’t shoot so it doesn’t really matter who guards him just play off like they did and he is stoppable. Kobe had amazing games in 2 and 3.
Why would anyone take the Lake Show frontline over the Celts with the addition of Sheed ?! Insanity !
Plus don’t expect the Lake Show to be in the finals next year.
Back to the Wolves, does anybody know which summer league group we are in with, we weren’t listed in the Orland tourny on ESPN, thanks
We don’t know how the 35 year olds will play and the Lakers are only getting better and are much younger and the Celtics are getting older and worse.
Plus Swan- they only play 2 guys at once so, if you only play 3 guys in a good front line rotation, the Lakers only need to play Gasol, Odom, and Bynum, now if the Lakers lose Odom, they are in big trouble, they replaced and upgraded with Artest(although he scares me) they can’t replace Odom. He was great last year
You mean Sheed and KG ? Two of the best team defensive players in the league year in and year out ?
They are also losing a step and Sheed’s defense was not good last year, Detroit was not happy with his defense and effort. If KG can fire up Sheed and he can handle 20-30 minutes a game it could work with Boston, but if they don’t win this year, they are done
I wouldn’t be worried about any squad in the league if I had Sheed, KG & Perk. Sheed joining that squad is unfair to opposing offenses.
They are done with what ?
Wallace was terrible last year, 41% shooting is not good for a PF even though he shot a lot of threes, and he is 35 in 2 months, he isn’t as quick on defense as he used to be, same as KG, they are out of their primes. KG was worse in every category last year than his first year with Boston
Here’s some perspective on Foo’s projections for Ellington. Last year, the NBA player with the highest 3-pt percentage was Anthony Morrow, an undrafted FA out of Georgia Tech. Here’s Hollinger’s take on him going into the season:
“He’s not an NBA athlete and is fairly one-dimensional, but has shooting guard size at 6-5 and may have a good enough stroke to have a career.”
He ended up averaging 10 ppg over 67 games. I’ll admit, this is the sum total of what I know about Morrow. But given this, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that Ellington could hit 12 ppg next year.
They are done after this year, Allen will be gone and Sheed could retire, he hinted at it before
I’ve said to Foo before that I agree about Ellington, I think he could be a Rip Hamilton type
C-Note:
This link seems to have all the info on the Orlando summer league - first game just finished up.
http://www.nba.com/magic/2009_Orlando_Pro_Summer_League.html
Wolves first game is this Sunday in Vegas, I believe…
Thanks ICZ
C - Note:
Who cares about Sheed’s shooting with those 3 guys inside no one is going to score on them….
Scarier thought is what Blair is gonna do for Duncan.
Yeah Sheed and Garnett are hard to score on but DH had a really hard time against Gasol, Odom, and Bynum, Howard looked terrible
If the C’s get Hill they will be the oldest team ever, lol, but their team is reminding me of LA with Shaq, Kobe, Payton, and Malone
Uh thats because D-Ho isn’t that good offensively.
Yeah, Wolves are playing in the Vegas league. The schedule is available on NBA.com.
Kind of cool feature of Thorpe tweeting on the Orlando games. You can get his take here:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-42-28/David-Thorpe-Livetweeting-from-Summer-League.html
Harden and Mullens playing now. Hansbrough, T Williams and Holiday just finished.
He was getting 20+ pts a night but not in the Finals and LA beat Boston both times last year, once without Bynum and Boston was fully healthy.
I should have ppointed out my other favorite team is the Lakers and I have been a fan for 20 years, so I may be a little biased, lol, my old user name was ChrisH
Thanks five and dime, Vegas would be more fun than Orlando anyways
So ? He got those 20 PPG against inferior frontcourts. He only played 1 good one.
I think you aren’t taking enough consideration that KG and Wallace are only getting worse and are only going to decline, they can’t do what they used to, KG is starting to get hurt, Wallace takes nights off and if they don’t get home court thru the East, they most likely won’t make it to the Finals
I think you aren’t taking enough consideration into how excited Sheed will be to play again now that Dumars isn’t scrapping his team.
Excitement doesn’t account for 15 years of grinding in the NBA, hes not even a top big man anymore
And by top, I mean top 12-15
Well Bynum’s not a top big man now, so who cares ? And by top I mean 12-15.
Garnett and Wallace will be good together don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think they will be better than the Lakers frontline(If Odom comes back) On another note, I had the pleasure of meeting Grant Hill and I am really hoping he goes to the Celtics for his last chance at a ring, he is one of the good guys in the league and deserves a ring
Yeah and Perkins isn’t either so
Thats my point, Gasol and Garnett are, but Garnett is getting older and worse and Gasol at 28 is getting better and just entered his prime. Bynum was a top 15 big man until he got hurt he was tearing it up and still finished with better numbers at 14, 8, and 2 than Wallace and Perkins. Go look at Bynum’s month of January(42 and 15, 24 and 14 with 6blks and others)
If you asked most GM’s who they would rather have right now:
Bynum and Odom
or
Perkins and Wallace
I think they would pick Bynum and Odom, Bynum is more complete and Odom as analysts have said, Odom is the most versatile big in the game
LT: kerr couldn’t get 20 shots ppg b/c he played on a team of Jordan and Pippen. No one else got even close to 20shots ppg outside of those 2. common sense.
C-Note: what makes you think Perkins will be the primary defender on Bynum? KG will be w/RW on gasol/odom. That will be the starting matchup and 4thQ lineup. KG will destroy Bynum, drag him out, expose his slowness and leave Wallace to abuse Gasol down low. Gasol is weak, only reason he did well this playoffs is b/c the magic had no one outside DH. no one.
Seeing as how KG destroyed Gasol in their finals matchup what makes you think Gasol has grown some balls in the past year? Gasol is weak, KG is mean. KG will rip your head off, Gasol will say ‘excuse me, can i get by’.
Kobe also disappeared in game 6, which he has a habit of doing. Hence he’s a pansy as well. Stars don’t crumble when the series is on the line. Kobe has 2 colossal disappearing acts in the last few years.
So KG gets his first injury of his career and you say he’s ’starting to get injured’? please. Detroit hasn’t played since Brown left–all of them. I’ll take the vets over the youngin’s everytime in the finals.
Well for Odom being the most versatile big in the game he sure got abused by the C’s last year. Same goes for Gasol. Once the finals is on, the players play–no pain, no excuses. The C’s will win it.
Also expect Rondo to have a much better J this year than last year and Fisher/Farmar can’t stay in front of him anyways unless they sag off 10ft–rondo can hit freethrows.
Depends on if those GM’s you mention are in the win now mode or are close to being contenders. There isn’t a GM in the league who would take Odom over KG if they were in the position to win now, same goes for Bynum.
You speak of KG ’starting to get injured’ Bynum already has KG beat by light years in the dept despite being 10yrs younger.
Like last year KG will not let his team lose once the finals is on. its that simple.
Bynum doesn’t play much down the stretch so the matchup will be Odom and Wallace and KG and Gasol, Odom can guard Wallace anywhere and is much quicker than Wallace
ESPN already has lakers #1 in power rankings for Current and they have the best outlook for the next 3 years, with Kobe, Gasol, Artest, Bynum and hopefully Odom all locked up for at least 3 years now
KG missed 1/7th of the year in 07-08 and missed 1/4th of the year last year. So he is starting to show signs of being injury prone, as far as Rondo, they did play well off and he had 4 bad games and 1 good game and that game came when the Lakers mailed it in during game 6
