Update from David Kahn
Posted on July 8th, 2009 – 6:02 PMBy Michael Rand
Hey all — I had a chance to speak with Wolves boss David Kahn earlier today for a Q&A to run at a later date. While there was nothing earth-shattering to come from it, there were a few newsy tidbits from the conversation that Jerry Zgoda hoped I could post. So, here goes:
*Kahn said he hasn’t had recent contact this week with Ricky Rubio’s agent, Dan Fegan, as Fegan has tended to matters for a couple other clients in the past couple days. Kahn said the two were in frequent contact last week and that he “has a firm understanding of where we were.” As for how long the Rubio situation will take to play out, Kahn said: “I don’t think it will last forever, but I don’t have a feel for a timetable,” though he added something could happen in the next couple of weeks.
*The free agent signing period started today, and Kahn said the Wolves will be a “late player” in that realm. What does that mean? “When the market starts to settle, and we see who’s still out there, there might be some opportunities to find players who pencil out as being effective and won’t cost us the ability to make a big move next summer.” Nothing surprising there, since 2010 is when the Wolves figure to make more noise with more cap space.
*Kahn was speaking by phone from an airport, and he indicated his travel was coaching search-related.
That’s about it, unless you are interested in Kahn’s response to a question about a cage-match-style fight for GM supremacy against new Wild boss Chuck Fletcher. For that, you’ll have to read the paper.
383 Responses to "Update from David Kahn"
1st?
Yes!
Oh well. I had only been targeting a couple of free agents anyway, and all of them are already committed to signing elsewhere.
He hasn’t had contact with Fegan because “Fegan had tended to matters” dealing with other clients? That doesn’t sound right. Agents are paid to “tend to matters” with all of their clients…. sounds fishy.
seenenough: nothing fishy about it. would you want your agent calling you every single day? no. Ricky’s Joventut team will play his bluff until the season nears, when they realize he’s not bluffing and will play another season in Europe and they risk losing out on the buyout, they will me far more willing to reach a decent settlement.
The “late players” in FA fits… there is no need for The Wolves to make a splash in free agency.
But it does fit with what we’ve all been talking in their eventual addition of another SG. There are a lot of guys in the same class of SG and we should be happy to just take the bargain basement deal that will most certainly be there late in free agency. So if we can be patient and then sign whoever is left (among guys like Carney, Bogans, Delfino, etc) for $1M for one year and a team option, that would be great. I don’t think guys like Carney, Bogans and Delfino will be in a great position to be picky late in the off-season.
Yo Rand, watch out. Your blog might blow up from all this Carney, Bogans, and Delfino speculation.
Bogans would be a solid pickup for cheap. I’d take him over Carney, although I like Carney as well. Either one and I’m happy.
Just sign Carney and wait for 2010. Simple.
There is no need to rush in for anyone in free agency this season, so no big deal. If we get Carney for a Mil that’s not bad, but we don’t need him… it’s not like we expect this team to win 30 games this season.
Before I read the Response on Rubio, I knew it was going to say “maybe something in the next couple of weeks” that is such a typical response by GM’s and agents, lol
What do you guys think of Marvin Williams as a FA target next summer? Just saw that Zaza signed an extension with the Hawks and most people think it’s around $5 Mil a year. That puts their salary next year at roughly $37 Mil with only Bibby, Zaza, JSmith, Crawford, Mo Evans, & Teague. If the cap is around $54 Mil that gives them only $17 Mil to work with for Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, & Josh Childress. They also have a team option on Al Horford for $5.4 Mil too that I’m guessing they use and would allow them to only sign Johnson since he will be getting a max deal. I’m guessing they let Childress go but they will have to pay serious luxury tax money to keep both Johnson and Williams, it could be devastating for them if the cap drops like some think.
Recent buzz from ESPN…
1. Andre Miller is a goner, but no idea where he’ll end up. Philly’s only interested in 1 year at the Mid-Level. Portland’s interest is waning as well.
2. Six years, $50M for Sideshow Bob, Anderson Varejao. Wow. I like that guy for his energy and defense, but that’s a lot of cash for a non-star.
3. Iverson to Memphis is gaining steam.
Kind of a yawner out there today…
I am really hoping we target Michael Redd next offseason! Then, if my hopeful scenerio plays out of us drafting Cole Aldrich, the only hole we would have is SF, which we will likely have either Flynn/Rubio and Jefferson/Love to deal away, So I am not too worried! Looks like this team is finally headed in the right direction! Does anyone know if my scenerio is at all possible based on the new cap? Im assuming Aldrich is a top 5 pick, probably top 3.
Verajao’s deal is 6/42 with the last year only partially guaranteed, so says ESPN.
That’s not bad for him. Shaq and Z are only around this year.
Redd can score but his D is brutal. Cole A is a better Joel Priz at the same age. His shot is a sling shot but he makes his free throws and has nice hands. Post game is okay for a young guy. He’s a nice player. I’d rather pay Anderson V 50 mil over 6 than Andre Barg 50 mil over 5. Both are role players one can shoot one can defend and rebound. Too much money for each. Is there a chance Rubio comes this year? It would be a mistake by him and team. 6-4 180 just won’t cut it at the NBA level. He needs to stay and improve shot and strength. When people proclaim him as a good defender, what are they basing that on? The only D I’ve seen him play is gamble passing lanes and the poke from behind steal. I haven’t seen much film on him but what I’ve seen he is not a stay in front solid guy, he’s a gambler who takes chances steady.
Wolves got ranked as 29th team in draft by Chad Ford and we’re going to be a late player in free agent market. How many people will pay good money for tickets with that buzz?
People will pay to see Rubio if he’s here, at least for a while.
If he doesn’t come, it’s going to be an extremely long year at Target.
You know, I hope they do more than pick up a minimum guy or two. I really don’t think it’s good in any way to lose 65 games, which this roster could easily do if there aren’t upgrades.
Completely punting on a season is a bad idea, even if you aren’t in a position to really contend.
Redd was a guy that I wanted but some people on here talked me out of it, He might just be too old by the time we are ready to start contending
My problem with Redd is he’s injury prone and one-dimensional. I’d rather explore the trade options with Kevin Martin if that’s the direction we choose to go.
Also, still not very high on Cole Aldrich. I think he’s going to be good, possibly great, but I still think he’s a bad fit and probably gets more love than is warranted because he’s a Minnesotan. If we go for a big man at the top of the draft, I’d rather have Derrick Favors or Greg Monroe.
Although, of course, the two big men I’d most want are JaJuan Johnson and Jerome Jordan.
Brandon Bass from Dallas will be available. Put up some nice games against Denver in the playoffs. Only will be his 5th year in the league. Long, athletic. An upgrade over Carney.
Not the same position…Carney’s a swingman, Bass is a power forward. I’d take Bass, but we’d have to trade Craig Smith first.
We definitely don’t need another PF….we need a coach!
NW Division buzz…
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The Oregonian reports the Blazers are preparing a “toxic” offer sheet to Utah Jazz restricted free agent Paul Millsap. The Blazers hope the provisions of the contract will make it too difficult for the Jazz, who are already over the luxury tax threshold, to match.
The newspaper also reports the Blazers may renounce the rights to Petteri Koponen and Joel Freeland so their cap room will increase from $7.7M to $8.9M.
Millsap told the Blazers he would be willing to backup LaMarcus Aldridge at the power forward position.
If the Millsap plan doesn’t go through, the Blazers will go after free agent Brandon Bass.
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I know it would be YET another PG, but I would like to see The Wolves go after Petteri Koponen if indeed The Blazers renounce his rights to make room for Millsap.
sportsjunkie - Indeed, no more PFs!
At some point all this “waiting” I think is going to catch up with us. I know we werent going to be in the hunt for any real decent free agents this year…but at what point does not having a coach hurt us with luring anyone here? I have liked what Kahn has done so far (I would have preferred Curry over Flynn) but this extended coaching search is getting old. Goverments have fallen and been rebuilt in less time than the time its taking us to get a coach for a bad team. I’m all about looking at the long term and big picture..but this is getting a bit ridiculous I think with the time….
It looks like a little birdie told Charley Walters that Larry Brown and Donnie Walsh are recommending Mark Jackson for the Wolves coaching job. I still like the idea of Jackson with some veteran assistants.
Facial - just read the same thing five minutes ago. I’d like to see a young coach in a prominent role (a la Mark Jackson or Monty Williams) Whether that young coach is named HC or HC-In-Waiting as top assistant to a veteran-type doesn’t matter much to me. I just want a combo either way.
Monty Williams has been an assistant for a while, so if he comes it will probably be in the HC role. If Mark Jackson comes, I’d prefer he fill the HC-In-Waiting role as the top-assistant to some veteran like Paul Silas or Del Harris. I also hope that Tom Thibbideu is in the mix. And if he was named HC, he wouldn’t need a veteran assistant.
BTW… shooter also said it’s doubtful that Jim Stack returns.
I still think Hoiberg stays on as the chief player-personel guy.
Tom Thibbideu?????? Kahn decides not to bring Mchale back to bring in Tom Thumb????? What could he be thinking? Mark Jackson has never been alined with a team (front office/coaching staff/scout) since he left playing or has he? I don’t really know. A vet coach I understand but these guys. Why not just keep Mchale? he had their respect and they played hard for him.
After Avery Johnson turned down the Pistons offer, I would hope that we would make an offer for him. If not, go after Mark Jackson, Del Harris, or some other veteran coach. I really like Doug Collins. But he might be too burned out to coach again.
I’ve heard good things about Stack from around the league- I’ve only seen him talk a few times at season ticket-holder functions, but he seems like a good guy with a good feel for the game. I can’t imagine that Kahn couldn’t use both of those guys during this transition to help him, considering that he’s been out of the league since ‘03 or so. Maybe Taylor won’t spend the $$$, but I’d think it would be money well spent.
Bryan - I like both Monroe & Aldrich and think either would be a better fit than Favors simply b/c Favors is listed right now at 6′9″. I like Monroe the best and think his offensive game would be dynamic with Big Al. If he can become more consistent with his jumper and work on his handles with his right hand he could be a Pau Gasol type on offense. Another year at Georgetown will do him so much good. If his D and rebounding continue to improve I think he could be a perfect compliment to Al.
Avery Johnson is out of Taylor’s price range. Look at his history- he doesn’t spend money on coaches. Sounds like Kahn doesn’t put much credence into coaches, either. I just don’t get how you have a good team without a coach they want to play for. There’s a reason some coaches are more successful than others. Look at the difference in how the same team played under Wittman and McHale- same team, different attitude completely. We need to find someone who gets the guys to play.
I’m liking Del Harris.
Agreed LT! The team had a solid nucleous of great young kids, draft picks, healthy players returning, cap room, and the continuity of a full training camp/year with McHale - the squad WAS finally pointed in the right direction.
Going even younger, w/ the team’s 3rd coach in a year made no sense.
Including his year at UCLA, this will be Love’s forth coach in 2 years!
Ugh..
LT/seenenough — the players didn’t always play hard for McHale. Look at all the home games they completely mailed in last year. Was it better than Wittman? Sure. But Randy Wittman is one of the worst head coaches in NBA history.
Saw Petteri Koponen play a couple of times. Liked what I saw. Can’t imagine we need any more PG’s though.
Sean- That’s not what I saw. Were you in the stands or watching from home? You see a lot when you watch the bench. I thought the guys played 180 degrees differently under McHale- folks around me thought so too. Where were you in January? And once Al went down, I was shocked that the guys continued to give a good effort. I’ve never played, but watched for years, and I was impressed with the effort, even at the end of the season.
Why not Paul Silas as head coach not ast?
Michael Redd has a player option for more than $18 million for the 2010/2011 season. He’s not going to turn that down.
McHale is gone and isn’t coming back, let’s move on.
jama- agreed. Sometimes it’s good to look back at mistakes to make sure they aren’t made again in the future.
Lets sign Me Myself & Iverson… I’d pay to watch him score. Team would go to the crapper but at least we’d have something to watch. He’s going to Memphis for goodness sakes…. We can out do them I’m sure. If Kahn is going to hire some “no name” coach, before October I hope, Lets bring in A. I. for some buzz. We’re officially the leader of the NBA. No Buzz Association…
That’s not totally true. The buzz we’ve got is every B-ball analyst is wondering what in the world we did in draft & killing Wolves. Plus our 5th pick didn’t come for media session and doesn’t want to play here. We do however have 8 power forwards going for us…. add in no coach….
Yes, AI would be a great influence for a young, developing squad. I hear he’s particularly helpful during practices.
Practice We’re talking practice!!! Are we talking practice??? That was a bad A.I. impersonation. We wouldn’t have to worry about practice because he wouldn’t show up. If we’re worried about being helpful to young guys, why Eaton Thomas? Wizards would’ve drove him here and payed the 1M trade kicker, Wolves picked up, to get him out of DC.
I agree w/ jama & seenenough that we need to move on, but the seeming lack of (or zero) direction from Kahn is disconcerting..
No coach, bizarrre draft, 5 pg’s, 15 pf’s, front office and assistant coaches in limbo, already getting runaround by agents (Feagan), already getting the short end of bad trades, etc, etc..
It goes on and on and on… Seems to me like he’s juggling waaay too much, and is in over his head. He can fall back on “patience” regarding free agents and the coaching search, but at some point these need to be addressed soon!
seen — The players gave some good efforts after Jefferson went down — those took place primarily on the road. But they also had a four-game homestand where the average margin of defeat was 18 and got throttled by GS by 24, they lost to Washington by double-digits at home. They lost 11 in a row at home at one point (some of that with Jefferson).
Was it better than Wittman? Yes, absolutely. But there was nothing there that indicates that McHale is a better-than-average NBA head coach.
I see both Evans and Curry signed. Shouldn’t Flynn be signed by the end of the week?
18 — I don’t think the draft is bizarre at all. I don’t buy for a minute the spin that Rubio and Flynn are going to be the long-term backcourt, but I think given the surprise of Rubio being available at #5, Kahn was right to pick his BPA at #6 if he wasn’t able to move down.
In terms of not having a coach, if you weren’t going to have one in place before the draft, then there’s no rush at this point. There’s still plenty of time before training camp.
I think there is a direction. He’s accumulating assets regardless of position at this point. Does the roster need to be balanced before the season? Clearly. But the Wolves don’t have cap room to be major players in the FA market, and who’s out there that you want to commit the MLE to for the next 3+ years? I don’t know that anybody fits that criteria. I think you will see one or more expirings moved to bring in some help at SG/SF before the season.
If the front office guys and assistant coaches don’t want to be in limbo, they’re free to quit. I would think Kahn isn’t going to keep anyone here who doesn’t want to be part of the new plan.
Oh, we’re still talking about McHale ?
Speaking of things in the past, lets talk about T-Hud or something. Anyone remember the ridiculous music videos you had to endure if you actually went to games when he was still around ?
“It goes on and on and on… Seems to me like he’s juggling waaay too much, and is in over his head. He can fall back on “patience” regarding free agents and the coaching search, but at some point these need to be addressed soon!”
I’m pretty sure of two things:
#1: This team will have a head coach before the Fall.
#2: The opening night roster will have an adequate number of players at each position.
You’re the one that needs to be patient, we’re less than a month after the NBA Finals and 4 months from any basketball that matters. Why demand that important decisions be made so fast?
Shut ‘em down. Sh, sh, sh, sh, shut ‘em down.
Yah facial !
How come we couuldn’t get in on that 4 team deal to balance us out a little? Memphis, Toronto, Orlando and Dallas. We could have replaced Memphis and thrown in Craig Smith to get one of the SG thrown around
Joe - it’s not really impatience on my part, just a gut feeling he’s in over his head… I keep falling back to his resume, or lack there of…
Listen, clearly I’m hoping for the best, but the season’s 4 months away for 29 other teams too, and they’re managing to sign FA’s, hire coaches, prepare for summer league, etc..
No need to panic about anything right now… if this is the roster we have going into the season and there’s no clarity on Ricky Rubio, then I will lead the charge to crucify David Kahn. But four months ahead of any basketball, I’m not sweating this much.
I believe Kahn has a plan, but being in the dark is tough like this is tough to wait out. As Chad Ford’s 29/30 off-season ranking for The Wolves indicates, this has definitely been a bizarre last several weeks. When the dust settles, Kahn will be percieved as a bozo or a genius. Time will tell.
Pacers signed Dahntay Jones - 4 years, $2.75M average salary. I like Jones’ defense and would have liked to have had him, but I wouldn’t have gone $2.75M per.
Oh well… one less perimeter defender in The NW Division. Should I upgrade my 2nd-team all-rookie prediction to League MVP for Wayne Ellington now or what?
Just thought about The Grizzlies’ move for Zach Randolph again today. They probably have the worst front-office in The NBA.
The way the off-season has unfolded, they could have easily had their choice between David Lee or Paul Millsap… probably for $7-8M per year. Instead, they locked themselves in with Zach Randolph for two years, which means they will suck for that time-frame, despite their reasonably strong collection of young talent.
I know I wrote this a couple of days ago but isn’t it important to hire a coach so that coach can at least get some of the assistants he wants? I know the possible coaching hires will be available for the rest of the off season but once an assistant coach is under contract there isn’t much the Wolves can do to bring him on board.
Plus it sure would be nice to have some assistant coaches working with the young players at the Summer league.
Bizarre is putting it mildly. I’d like to see a direction for this team, but can’t seem to find one. I’m looking at the roster and seeing big holes. Our GM is telling us that free agents aren’t needed and that we can wait on a coach. I would assume, maybe wrongly, that coaches work during the summer getting strategies, etc. together for the team and getting their assistants in place.
Where’s the direction? I hope we’re not banking on that 2nd team all rookie thing that Foo keeps throwing at us.
From what I gather, the assistants under McHale are coaching summer league. I assume they’re still under contract or maybe hoping to get new contracts. I would think that the new coach will determine his own assistants, not keep old ones (if history is any indication.) I suppose it depends who that coach is. This would be the perfect time for the new coach to get to know his new players, especially the young ones, wouldn’t it?
Foo-I had missed the report of the Randolph trade, thanks for mentioning it. I wonder how Memphis plans to work the rotation of Gasol, Thabeet and Randolph? I doubt Zach will be willing to come off the bench. I suppose they won’t start Thabeet right away, or they see who’s better in training camp between him and Gasol at center.
Also, why is Memphis interested in Iverson? Isn’t Mayo essentially the same player only much younger? And why would A.I. want to play for a team that isn’t likely to be all that good?
OK, enough about Memphis. Who’s the Wolves new coach, and when does Rubio sign his contract? lol 
The Mavs are giving Gortat a 5 year deal worth $34 million? When the owners start complaining about salaries at the next CBA the only people they should be blaming are themselves. That is ridiculous. Shawn Marion is only worth $1 million more per season than Gortat?
Re: Iverson to Memphis
Iverson will go where someone is willing to pay. Memphis is hoping to sell some tickets.
That’s the reason we should get A.I. he’s willing to play for a bad team. At 5M for one year he’ll fit in. We have no locker room vets to help young guys anyway. At least there’d be an entertainment value. All I see now is national contempt for Wolves… Did anybody see Chris Carter lite up team and Kahn? My guy 81 went hard at us. I loved him as wide out though.
I understand the need for revenue, but shouldn’t you want to win at the same time? I don’t see how Iverson plays a positive role in improve the product on the floor in Memphis. Oh well.
The creator of the X-Files attacked David Kahn? Amazing, I didn’t know he was that interested in our Wolves…
Sorry Cris Carter…. Yeah he was on Mike & Mike and went off. I like X-Files too.
Chris Carter wore number 80 for the Vikes while Anthony Carter (no relation) wore number 81. I point his out only because I don’t like LT’s constant negativity.
triebark we have no chance at winning this year. As I’ve stated the 9 win Philly total is a possibility
What did Carter have to say?
Who cares what Cris Carter thinks?
I’ll judge Kahn based on what this team looks like on opening night and how it plays when the schedule begins. I’m not terribly worried about the current state of the roster because I’m assuming that it’s not going to look that way in a couple of months. If they go into the season with Brewer and Ellington as the SG rotation, I’m going to be ripping away.
I didn’t expect them to do anything of note in the FA market, so I’m not disappointed about that.
I would preferred that they had a coach before the draft, but at this point, I don’t see that there’s a reason to rush to get a guy in place. It’s late in the coaching season whether they hire a guy tomorrow or in two weeks. The only concern would be if we’ve lost candidates because of the timing, but I don’t see any evidence of that occuring.
Wait…the Philly 9 win is in jeopardy ? How do we figure that ? This team’s roster is better off than it was last year !
Sean- Kahn has already said we’re going to be horrible this year- what’s to make you think differently?
seen — When have I said I think differently? I don’t think this team is likely to be very good this year.
However, I’m not in the camp that thinks that one month of decent play indicated that McHale had this team going in the right direction.
This team needed significant changes and if we need to stagnate a year to get this team better positioned for the future, I’m willing to take it. I’ve also said that I think this team should be a .500 team in 2010-11, and a playoff team in 2011-12. So I have high expectations for Kahn, and I will hold him to that.
And when I stay stagnate — I mean staying at about the same W/L level. I don’t think it’s acceptable to back up significantly either (barring major injuries).
Swan, I don’t think there’s any way you can say that the team’s current roster is better this year than last year unless you’re talking about that post-Jefferson phase, or assuming an improved Kevin Love.
Flynn, Rubio, and Ellington have never played a minute of NBA ball. I’m an optimist, but I could see this year’s team be worse than last year’s during the painful part of the growth curve.
Oh, this team will be bad this year. Very bad if they don’t make any real additions. It won’t be 9 wins bad, but under 20 is a real possibility.
Eric-
that’s what’s so frustrating about the whole program!
Sorry to be harping on the past, but honestly, if we would have kept Mac, kept the roster intact for the most part, added the #6 pick, and the #28(lol), w/ the cap space cleared out - we were on the right path! Maybe the team needed significant changes (debatable), but not the kind that has been happening.
It’s not a step back, it’s 4 steps back… LT’s right, by the time the season rolls around and all the top tier fa’s are gone, not to mention 2nd and 3rd tier, we will be threatening Philly’s 9 wins.
Kahn can not be allowed to get away w/ buying 2 more years of patience, when the team was basically gift wrapped and pointed in the right direction…
Well, that I disagree with, Number 18. I don’t think Foye or Miller were part of the next good Wolves team, and I think Rubio at least has a chance to be a franchise changing talent, so that doesn’t bother me too much. I would disagree that this team was pointed in the right direction.
I don’t love Flynn, but the draft is the draft.
My big issue right now is that Kahn seems utterly disinterested in this year. There were and are moves out there that would make the team better for this year. I don’t think anyone is expecting 50 wins this season, and the emphasis has to be on development, but 15 wins is a bad thing no matter how you slice it. But as far as I can tell, Kahn doesn’t seem to mind the idea of a 15 win team.
What was so great about where we were going? Basically, we traded one year of Miller and a chance to re-sign Foye for Rubio. It’s not like we were going to win the Western Conference with that team. I kind of liked Foye, but mostly as a 6th man. I’d trade a one-year rental and a 6th man for Rubio’s upside any day.
I also don’t get all of the pessimism for next year. If Al and Love are healthy, that’s quite a bit to build on. Eric always talks like filling in the back court with D-leaguers is waving the white flag. Here’s a list of D-League success stories from Wikipedia:
“Many former NBA draftees, waived players and undrafted players have played in the NBA D-League. Some of the called-up D-League players that went on to have a successful NBA careers include Rafer Alston, Louis Amundson, Chris Andersen, Kelenna Azubuike, Matt Barnes, Devin Brown, Will Bynum, Matt Carroll, Eddie Gill, Stephen Graham, Jason Hart, Chuck Hayes, Anthony Johnson, Dahntay Jones, Jamario Moon, Mikki Moore, Smush Parker, Bobby Simmons, Ime Udoka, Von Wafer, C. J. Watson, Mike Wilks.”
A lot of those names have been tossed around the board as guys who could help. I don’t think it’d be that hard to find a D-league player that is about as good as the bargain basement FAs we’re likely to look at. They won’t be great, but they might be good enough to stick and they’ve probably played enough ball that they won’t be completely overwhelmed by the pro game. We’ve also got Telfair to fall back on.
I don’t think we’ll come close to making the playoffs, but (barring injuries) I think the 9-win talk is ridiculous. I don’t expect us to field a team that looks completely lost the majority of the time.
Yes, it’s a two-year project to get all of the pieces in place, but I don’t think it’ll be THAT bad next year.
You people do realize that if Brewer comes back 80% + and we don’t trade Flynn we’re going to be much much better on perimeter defense right ? Thats not even including if Rubio plays.
Our perimeter defense is going to be fun this year.
Okay, i’ve had enough of the blog for the day, but really? D-leaguers? Is that another Matt Carroll sighting in their? Foo must be psyched.
these names make me laugh out loud!
“Rafer Alston, Louis Amundson, Chris Andersen, Kelenna Azubuike, Matt Barnes, Devin Brown, Will Bynum, Matt Carroll, Eddie Gill, Stephen Graham, Jason Hart, Chuck Hayes, Anthony Johnson, Dahntay Jones, Jamario Moon, Mikki Moore, Smush Parker, Bobby Simmons, Ime Udoka, Von Wafer, C. J. Watson, Mike Wilks”
trainwreck…
like I said earlier, i wish ‘em the best, but what a gong show..
Eric
My issue exactly. We’ve lived through the 22-24 win seasons now for a couple of years. I don’t think Kahn understands that folks here want to win now, not in 3 years. Maybe everyone else on this board wants to throw the team away and HOPE that things improve in a few years, but I’d take 42 wins this year any day. If Al had stayed healthy and McHale had that team for the whole year, I think we would have pushed 40 wins. 15 wins doesn’t interest me.
There’s a reason those guys are in the D-league. Don’t you think if they were great, SOMEONE around the league would have spotted them by now?
There is at least one reason the Wolves will win close to 20 games…
Half the league is absolutely horrible. I have never seen any sort of professional league have a more devisive split of have’s and have not’s than what the NBA is going to look like next year.
Along with the Wolves there are at least another 8 teams that are either trying to rebuild or flat out throwing away the 2009 season looking at the 2010 FA class and/or draft. Here’s the list
Wolves
Bucks
Nets
Knicks
Rockets
Grizzlies
Thunder
Pacers
Warriors
Clippers
Suns
All the Wolves have to do is beat each one of those teams once and they win 10 games. If people seriously think that this team won’t win 10 games that is laughable. I’m by no means think they’re going to make the playoffs but I would be shocked if they don’t win close to at least 20 games.
seen
What would the Wolves have looked like in the summer of 2010 if they did what you suggest?
Let’s say they would have won 40 games, here’s what would have happened.
1. They would have lost their 2010 draft pick to the Clippers. The 2010 draft is going to be packed with talent.
2. They would have either lost Foye as a Restricted Free Agent or been forced to vastly overpay for him and regret it for years to come.
3. They would have either lost Miller as a Free Agent or been forced to vastly overpay for him and regret it for years to come.
4. Had they not resigned Miller and Foye they would have gotten nothing for them.(Instead at the very least they have Rubio to trade)
Plus I think your view that they would have won 40 games is so unfounded I have no idea where that is coming from. The Wolves had a stretch of three weeks where virtually every team they played either was tanking it, absolutely horrible, or missing at least one if not more of it’s best players. If you are basing 40 wins next year on that stretch you are nothing but wrong.
seenenough: I never said they were great. I said they wouldn’t be completely lost. And it makes perfect sense to me that marginal FAs would be about as good as a top NBDL player. That’s why the FAs are still looking for work.
I agree with Jama. This team is going to win 20+ games due to the many crap teams in the league.
I also don’t like Eric in Madison’s ideas that we should have made more of a run to win this year. That’s short sighted. While I too would prefer a few more high fives at the target center, this isn’t the year to do it.
Kahn has stated he needed 3 events to reshape this roster (1) 2009 NBA Draft (2) 09-10 In Season trade deadline (3) 2010 NBA Draft and subsequent Free Agency.
With a high pick in a draft full of bigs, you play this season out terrible. Hopefully acquire a top 5 pick, hopefully translate that into a wing or a big. If it’s a wing, you hunt through FA to find a 3rd defensive oriented Big. If it’s a Big, you hunt through FA to find a wing.
Rubio/Flynn
Brewer/Ellington
Turner or FA/Gomes
Love/(Big from Draft or FA)
Al/(Big from Draft or FA)
This gives you a solid 9 man rotiation, and along with assets like Charolotte’s pick next year, Utah’s pick, Pekovic, andd cap space in a shrinking cap environment, they can leverage these assets to get they player they want in the draft and free agency.
If played right, 2010-11 becomes the year we are ready to at least challenge and hopefully surpass .500 basketball.
Foo- I wouldn’t have wanted Jones, he is a punk and cheap and dirty player. I can’t root for guys like that
BTW the way Foo - this morning you quoted Shooter as saying Stack wouldn’t be back, and that you think Freddie will return as Player Personnel.
Where did you get that, i couldn’t find it anywhere.. very curious as to your “source”.
Everyone seems to have missed the point I was trying to make, which means I must have made it badly.
I don’t want to “try to win this year” in the sense that I think a run to the playoffs was ever possible.
My point is that it’s better all around to win 30 games than it is to win 15. I know some people disagree, but I think it is bad for development to be a 15 win team. Winning and competing and learning to win and compete are important aspects of player and team development. I have serious questions that it’s possible to get better when you are getting blown out every night.
Also, I think we learn more about players when they are in a competitive environment.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to lose, to punt a season at this point. Draft position isn’t worth it.
18 — If Kevin McHale were still in the corner office at Target Center, we wouldn’t be signing any free agents of note, either.
I don’t know how you say we were on the right track. Were you prepared to make multi-year commitments to Miller and Foye?
As I’ve said if Kahn doesn’t do anything to the roster between now and the start of the season to shore up the 2/3 positions, I will be upset. But that move is going to have to come through trade, not free agency.
I don’t think this team can afford to take a big step back this year — especially if they hope to make the kind of improvement I expect out of them. But I do think it is possible for this team to stay in the 22-28 win range with a few tweaks to balance out the roster if Jefferson and Love stay healthy.
jama
I disagree on Mller and Foye. McHale was able to get Al to stay here with a lot less $$ than he demanded. If the season had been successful, Kahn may have been able to do the same with Miller and Foye. The team was pretty cohesive last year, and that accounts for a lot in the locker room. While the games are played on the court, chemistry is made in the locker room, on the bus, in the plane, etc. That’s why the JR Rider’s of the world cause trouble.
I still say that 40 games was possible last year without the bad start from Wittman and if Al and Corey had been healthy. I watched many of those games. I didn’t see a lot of tanking by other teams.
Also- Besides Al and Corey, we had more injuries than you can shake a stick at. Rhino had the rib issue, Ollie had the bad shoulder, Foye was battling hamstrings all year. Miller was questionable for almost every game. I remember nights where Cardinal and Mad Dog had to play major minutes because the bench was so sparse. They may have lost by 15, but they competed hard.
If all those guys had been relatively healthy, I say 40 wins.
Sounds like Telfair’s going into this season with a chip on his shoulder:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/07/09/telfair/index.html?eref=T1
Sean-
Why through trade, not free agency? Why not free agency, cause no one wants to come here????
Eric: I’m not saying we should aim to win 15 games versus 30. If an opportunity to pick up a good player comes along this year, we take it. The guys on the team should play hard, and hopefully we win in the process.
But I think your 15-game theory relies on the assumption that we keep trotting out Ellington even if he looks completely lost. I just don’t see that happening, and the point of my NBDL post (which was so well received) was that we can plug that hole as needed. If I had to pick one hole to have to plug with the available scraps, SG would be it. If we can do better than that with a trade, that’s great. But let’s not go signing Iverson or anything (not your idea, I know).
Yeaaaahhhhh 40 wins was not going to happen last year. That’s the kind of thinking that got McHale fired.
ehem, Bryan, I’ll take McHale’s coaching career win/loss record over the Wolves 2009/10 season record.
…even with a healthy Big Al
seen — The Wolves have only the MLE to offer in free agency. Who do you propose the Wolves should have pursued with that exception? Who’s out there that you’re willing to commit five years, $30 million to?
I would also say your point on Jefferson isn’t exactly right. McHale signed Jefferson before he was fully established, which is why he was able to get a discounted price versus his production the last two years. Miller and Foye, though, are going to have records of production when they face their next contract.
I don’t see how 40 wins this year would have been so great if it means no Rubio and no lottery pick next year. At that point, you’re relying of free agency to get a lot better, which is made even harder by needing to re-sign Miller and Foye.
More importantly, I’d like to have seenenough come up with a constructive idea that doesn’t involve building a time machine.
In my opinion, Kahn has made all the right moves so far, assuming that all their scouting info suggested that Rubio was their goal in the draft. I do think that right now the roster reflects a team that is worse than the product on the floor last year, but that is usually going to result from a youth movement. Yes, Brewer is back, but I don’t think he’s much of a help, and he’s definitely a downgrade from Miller no matter how it’s sliced.
I do think the team could have more wins than last year, if one of the rookies proves to have enough game to contribute before the midway point in the season, and if a good all around wing or two is aquired this summer. I have good faith in the second possibility, and am not too skeptical about the first.
You really must be a member of the McHale family. You defend the guy like he’s your mama.
Bryan, I’ll take it that you agree with me then. McHale’s career coaching record v. the upcoming season’s win/loss. Hint: It’s the substance that counts..k?
If Brewer and Al are healthy and Rubio plays, we should have more wins than last year. Not many, but a few more.
As for free agency, there’s no one left to sign anyway, at least not anyone that will make a major difference. I’m still interested in adding a few guys like Channing Frye or Hakim Warrick or Ryan Hollins, but those aren’t guys who will take us to another level.
Right now, I think the best thing to do is play through summer league and look at the guys we have there. Rob Kurz is a guy that would definitely fit in and help us a lot, if we can clear the space for him. Same with Paul Harris.
Otherwise, the focus should be on settling Rubio’s buyout and getting the guys we have together.
-Marty
Nope, I don’t agree. First, part of McHale’s record is with a team that was 10x better than the one we have now. Second, part of his record was against a whole month of sub-.500 competition. Third, McHale is clearly not in touch with how the NBA works now.
Bryan, if, if and if? If LeBron becomes and Wolve along with Kobe….u sound worried that I’m right, no?
Marty — That’s a little disingenous to suggest McHale’s career coaching record (including the team he coached with KG, Sprewell, and Cassell), isn’t it?
I know, I know, Bryan, January 2009 win/loss didn’t exist, right? And I thought D-Nile was a river in the Middle East.
I don’t think anyone is worried you might be right Marty. If anything, you sound worried you might be wrong.
McHale is the past. Nothing you say on this blog will change that, so why are you so hung up on it?
Why does McHale matter so much to you?
And, who will Dingus get to replace McHale? Will it be (1) a retread, (2) a has-been, (3) a no body, or (4) all of the above.
I find it interesting that some people only want to talk about January, but not November, December, February, or March. They think 10-4 is much more valid than the 14-54 that surrounded it.
Marty
The Wolves went 20-43 under McHale last yaer. If you take that over a whole season that is 26 wins. If that is considered successful I think this franchise is in trouble.
Bryan, I give you facts. U give me nonsense. Hint: save the rants about McHale’s coaching until the end of 09/10 and replace the name McHale with the next-to-be-named Wolves coach. c u at the Wolves games?
Jama, I said McHale’s career coaching record, no? Even with last year’s record sans Big Al. And, yes, the franchise is in trouble in the 09/10 season. Have u bought your tickets yet?
Again, you assume you know what’s going to happen Marty. Again you write off Kahn before he’s done anything. Maybe the new coach will be Sam Mitchell. Maybe it’ll be Jeff Van Gundy. How do you know it won’t work out?
-Marty
McHale’s career coaching record is 39-55. As in 16 more losses than wins.
What now?
Dingus has written off 09/10 himself. So, I’m very confident in the comparison of McHale’s career coaching record v. the 09/10 Wolves. Surprised u can’t get past your hatred for McHale not to c it.
Marty
I give you facts you give me nonsense. Hint: save the rants about McHale’s coaching until he gets a job with another team and shows he can win.
This team is completely different than the team he coached with KG.
Bryan, u seriously believe the Wolves are going to win 30 games this season? U must be WUI (writing under the influence).
The only reason you think we hate McHale is because you love him so much. We’ve never said he was a bad coach. We’ve only given you statistical proof as to why your assertion that he was a good coach is wrong.
Marty
Does it make any difference if the Wolves win 24 or 30 games to you next season? How much more enjoyment would you get out of those 6 wins?
Where did I say we were going to win 30 games? Give me the exact post I said we were going to win 30 games. Do it. Right now, I dare you, give me the exact timestamp of the post.
Aww, what’s wrong McFly? Can’t handle being called out?
Looks like you’re not McFly so much as McLIE. I hereby dub thee McLier.
Anyway, summer league starts tomorrow. Hopefully Brewer gets into a game or two, although it’s going to be interesting to see how we handle the guard overload. Flynn and Ellington, possibly Brewer, plus Paul Harris, and then the obligation to play Henderson as well.
Bryan, watever. Wolves won’t win over 30 games in 09/10. McHale will have had a better career coaching record, and the opening will be filled with a retread, a has-been, or a no body.
Bryan pretty clearly wins this round.
I never said we’d win 30 games McLiar so you telling me they won’t means nothing.
And McHale’s coaching record is done. He won’t coach again, he hates it. The only reason he wanted to come back was because he handpicked the roster here.
Gendo, u out there? LOL
Bryan, u r breaking news? McHale’s motives for coaching, u know dat? U admit that McHale’s career coaching record will exceed 09/10 wins/losses, yea u did! Oh, and (yawn) call me anything but late for dinner.
My vote’s for McFly. He kept his cool while Bryan lost his.
Gendo, u c dat? Bryan stating flatly that he “never said we’d win 30 games”? I’d say another round for the champ, dat b me.
How can McHale’s coaching record exceed the 09-10 season? He’s coached 94 games, a season only has 82.
Learn to count plz.
Again, I’d love to see the timestamp of the post where I said McHale’s record will be better than this coming season.
I never said we’d win 30 games. Not the same as saying we WON’T win 30 games.
Learn to count AND read plz.
On another subject, whos up for payin to watch the summer league? dats the only way.
You’re all talk McLiar. Yap yap yap but when someone actually asks you to prove what you say, you run away like a little girl.
And no, not paying to watch the summer league. Tracking the boxscores and seeing the highlights is enough for me.
So, whos Dingus gonna hire. Think he’s ruled out Mitchel..what im hearin.
Probably Mark Jackson. It makes the most sense both in terms of Kahn’s preferences and what Rubio and Flynn want.
Just take McHale’s winning percentage and apply to 82 games…then you have your benchmark for a new coach.
And this McHale argument makes both Bryan and Marty non-winners.
All I asked him to do was show me where I said the things he claimed I said.
Also, if we take McHale’s coaching record from last year, the new coach’s benchmark is 26 wins. Just two more than what we won last season.
My preferred coach is still Maruice Cheeks. He’s a former point guard like what Rubio wants, he’s more proven than Mark Jackson, and we know what kind of system he’ll run, which is ideal for Rubio and Flynn.
Avery is too expensive. Mitchell is out. Mark Jackson is too inexperienced. Porter is washed up. Casey was already here once. I’d like to know who the other 8-12 guys are. So far I’m hearing Del Harris, Jackson, and Williams. Not impressed.
Bryan, like McHale or not, you can’t hand him Wittman’s losses, along with December, when he was changing things up. You can argue that Feb., March, and April were his, but that’s a long stretch without Al. Phil Jackson would have had a hard time without Al and Corey.
Del Harris would be ok as a mentor to a new coach. I’d be down with Harris or Paul Silas for a couple of years, with a guy like Jackson as the top assistant and eventual replacement.
Still Mo Cheeks seems to be everything we’re looking for, and he’s ready to be the head coach from day 1.
I’ll coach next year….hire me.
seen — Who picked Randy Wittman to coach the Wolves? Who assembled the team that struggled in December and was falling apart even before Jefferson got hurt?
I don’t know how we are supposed to judge coaching candidates, especially among guys who don’t have a head coaching record.
LT “isn’t impressed” by Monty Williams–I have no idea why. He’s been an assistant for a couple rather successful franchises. I certainly wouldn’t claim to know enough to be impressed or not impressed by any of these candidates.
Swan, right, extrapolation is a beautiful thing. We should (hopefully) have already realized that the 09/10 record is a projection, no? So, I’ll self-declare being the winner in this argument as, even crunching McHale’s record into 82-games, it still exceeds 30 games, no? And we all agree the 09/10 Wolves with a likely unproven coach will not reach the +30 threshold.
Sean, u r giving me doubts about your recollection of recent history. “team that struggled in December and was falling apart even before Jefferson got hurt”. I declare as exhibit A: January 2009.
Marty — What does that prove, though? Nothing. There’s no guarantee that if Kevin McHale had been allowed to coach this year’s team that he would have been able to achieve his career record, either.
Meannn, stop the hate! McHale is your best choice for 09/10 coach. Dat it won’t happen is on Dingus.
Sean, soooo, the better choice is to go with a no body with no win/loss record, no coaching exp? Does make sense though, a novice gm picks a novice head coach. Success in the makin’
-Marty
AGAIN Kahn has not made a coaching decision. You’re making assumptions about what he’ll decide, as always.
Marty — Al Jefferson was injured in OT of the New Orleans game on Feb. 8. The Wolves lost that game, even though the Hornets didn’t have Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler and David West was ejected in the first half. It was the Wolves’ sixth loss in seven games.
Marty - Thats like declaring yourself winner of the “worst smelling feet” contest.
Peeps need to drop McHale from pretty much all conversation.
Hate to hack a line from a Judd Apatow movie (in this case Forgetting Sarah Marshall) but…
McHale is like the Sopranos…over….go find a new show.
How much of a free pass does McHale REALLY get for Al’s injury anyway? How many games did TMac miss? How many games did Carlos Boozer miss? Phoenix changed head coaches midseason too, and then Amare missed the last 30 games of their season.
And yet all three of those teams won over 45 games, and Utah and Houston went to the playoffs.
worst smelling feet….is that any way to refer to u’s guyz? Com’on, u r better den dat. More, dis is bout Dingus as much as McHale. Now wat we gonna get?
In my opinion McHale was at least a good coach. However, I don’t think his firing had much to do with his coaching ability or lack thereof. He was let go because he built this team and believed that it was a piece or two from being a contender (which it was if one of those pieces was Lebron, Kobe or D-Wade). Kahn, and I believe most fans, didn’t believe that this franchise was anywhere near contending without one of those players and didn’t think the possibility of signing one in the next couple years was very realistic. McHale had to go because he would have been unhappy with the dismantling of his team and very probably would have been a problem for the new front office. So, arguing about McHale’s coaching abilities compared with whomever we end up with is fairly pointless.
“Momma there goes that man” - Mark Jackson (repeat 8T times)
January Schedule
Fri 02 vs Golden State W 115-108
Sat 03 @ Chicago W 102-92
Tue 06 @ Memphis W 94-87
Wed 07 vs Oklahoma City W 129-87
Sat 10 vs Milwaukee W 106-104
Tue 13 vs Miami L 96-99
Fri 16 @ Phoenix W 105-103
Mon 19 @ LA Clippers W 94-86
Tue 20 @ Utah L 107-112
Fri 23 vs New Orleans W 116-108
Sun 25 vs Chicago W 109-108
Mon 26 @ Milwaukee W 90-83
Wed 28 vs Detroit L 89-98
Fri 30 vs LA Lakers L 119-132
Marty, they beat 2 playoffs teams the entire month of January, and one of them–New Orleans had quite a few injuries. Mchale was a wreck, and you are constantly embarrassing yourself. For your sake and ours, please stop.
-Two things Marty
1) Why is it so hard for you to understand that Kahn hasn’t hired a coach yet?
2) Why are your posts getting increasingly ghetto?
Arby’s…best post yet (just b-low all mine). Still, r u inside Mac’s mind or something? Was this a Vulcan mind meld thingy? Mac was following the Taylor Plan articulated numerous times over the past three years to incrementally improve leading to the 2010 UFAs. Problem2: no tier 1 FA is coming to Minne with a history of losing seasons including the upcoming one. Wins want to play for winners, check quotes from recent FA acquisitions. “Sheed even took a haircut to play for Celtics next season.
Muse, sorry, but truth hurts ya right? Again, McHale’s career coaching record will exceed 09/10 wins/losses. All these excuses are ground noise, face facts.
Bryan - c racist?
Not to belittle the point, but isn’t the first step always to beat the teams YOU SHOULD BEAT. The next step is to beat teams better than you. In January we accomplished that- didn’t we??????
What I mean is that we beat the teams that we should have (which we hadn’t been doing previously) and we even beat a few who were playoff teams.
Bryan, don’t care when Dingus hires jus who (or wat)
Just curious. If that’s the way you talk, why not post like that all the time? You look bipolar posting with perfect English one minute, then like a gangster the next.
seenenough, progression goes (1) beat teams u shd beat at home, (2) beat teams u shd beat away, (3) beat better teams @ home, (4) beat better teams @ thar crib.
-Marty
Then let him hire someone before you criticize him. You’re taking shots at him before he’s done anything.
I tried my best to use statements like “in my opinion”, “i think” and “i believe” multiple times to avoid that kind of response but apparently not frequently enough.
I agree no tier 1 FA is going to sign here if we are losing, but I don’t believe this team was on the cusp of winning 40 games either (really 35 would have been surprising to me). So I don’t think adding a couple of mediocre pieces from this years draft and maintaining the status quo was going to make this team any more appealing to the one or two guys who will switch teams next year. In my opinion blowing up this team and trying to aquire more young stars or at least valuble assets was the way to go.
What do you mean when you say McHale’s career record will exceed our win/loss total? Do you mean we won’t win as many games as McHale won?
k…one more time for Bryan (only one more time, mind u): The Wolves version 2009/2010 will have less wins and more losses than (an equalized) Kevin McHale career coaching wins/losses record. Saavy? comprendo? Nada?
That’s a flawed standard Marty. For one, you can’t count McHale’s record with the 04 team.
So again, the benchmark is 26 wins. Just two more than last year. You really think we can’t win 26 games with a healthy Al and two real point guards?
Marty
all you needed to say was that the wolves this year will have a worse winning percentage than McHale’s coaching record (and implied from this is that you think we’d have been better if he was coaching, I am guessing).
Bryan
the correct diagnosis is multiple personality disorder 
If Rubio can get his buyout down to 3 mill, I think he comes over. the wolves will probably offer something like 2 mill/year to start (correct me if I am wrong?) plus will offer the 500k for the buyout. I think Rubio will then use the money to buyout the contract and come here. he and Flynn can show what they can do. honestly, I think Flynn will flow well with Rubio, as long as Rubio is willing. I also want to see Rubio hit the gym while he is here and maybe gain 10 pounds of muscle. that will help when he is trying to guard the 2 while Flynn guards the PG
Arby’s…we hold everyone accountable for all facts, opinions, and conjecture…k? Seriously, its takes three years in the league for a draftee to reach his zenith. While Ricky and the other draftees have potential, they are still years away. Even Dingus knows that. Reality is by blowing up the team (even more than had been before), Dingus will only have money to throw at UFAs in 2010, no winning record, less fellow vets to peer2peer wit, etc. And, no coach with 5 championship rings and a NBA 50 Legend record for credibility.
That’s a very flawed argument to say players would want to play for McHale because of his player accomplishments. How many free agents wanted to play for Isiah Thomas?
It’s what you do as a manager and the kind of team you build that counts, and McHale was pretty much a failure in that regard.
Also, while it may take a few years for a player to fill out his potential, that doesn’t mean he can’t have a huge impact his rookie year. Derrick Rose? Chris Paul? Dwyane Wade? LeBron James?
Who’s to say Rubio and Flynn won’t have that kind of impact. Half this blog is convinced Flynn is Chris Paul already.
Maybe its a ‘bad’ team, but if you offer a good FA enough money and show them you are young team with a strong base (ie Jefferson, Love, Rubio, Flynn, etc), lots of vets would like to come in and help run the show. Look at Johnson in Atlanta.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmgIPGy0zOE
how many point guards in this league can do that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U65I6UB9og
he’s got one of the better crossover ive seen
medschoolmatt, not surprisingly, the big dollar FAs are higher on the Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. They are at the self-actualization stage, security long since passed. Read the press conference transcripts of the difference maker FAs this year; it’s all about the ring! Strong base? The other teams don’t have a arguably “strong base” of their own?
Marty
not all title contenders can pay what the Wolves can pay. for some, money talks.
All of the difference making free agents this year are over 30 years old. Hedo and Artest are 30. Sheed is 34. McDyess is 35.
By contrast, Wade will be 27 next year. Chris Bosh will be 25. LeBron James will be 24. Joe Johnson will be 29 and Michael Redd will be 30.
Bryan, Disregarding everything else, why were the players lobbying so heavily for McHale to coach again if they weren’t willing to play for him? Doesn’t make sense. Also, if Al and Love are our 2 cornerstones, who better to coach/teach them, McHale or Williams????
medschoolmatt…a little exercise for ya:
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-player-salaries/
Take a look at the positioning of all 30 NBA teams as they position themselves for 2010 UFA. There are at least 10 teams who can throw their money around besides the Wolves. Generally, they are the ones holding back or cutting payrolls this season (Knicks, etc.)
So, with money equalized across several teams, winning records even more clearly stands out.
Good point, medschool. Money talks. You can’t sell some on the weather or the team, but maybe we could have gotten a good shooter by paying him. Also, nothing wrong with a couple of vets in the locker room to help the young guys learn the trade.
seenenough, good point for Bryan, even more so considering Dingus has emphasized that the Wolves are “in the player development business”
seenenough, when several teams have plenty of walking money, “money talks” is a deafening sound.
Bryan, getting a Wade, CB, or Bron is a wet dream. They will either be locked up by 2010 or move to a team with higher probability of winning a ring. Surely not the Wolves.
More, any tier 1 UFA more motivated by money than adding to a winning team is not a good acquisition.
Gotta go guyz, time is valuable, class is out.
I just want to have some fun as a fan this year. Since the “Mn TWolves select . . .Pooh Richardson” this franchise has been the 3 stooges mode with nothing but bad luck thrown in in the draft. The good teams are so good now that the wolves are truly a D-league team now, Apologies to Al J.
Let J Flynn and Telfair have a battle. Let Rhino make K Love earn his time. Let Al get healthy. Get Ricky 50 endorsements, and explain to him that Pau, Kobe, and LeBron as well as every other top ten player had to grow up with a lousy team, and if they didn’t do it in the NBA they’d still be playing for a mil a year. So get your ass over here and start to grow up. Only an 18 yr old would be worried about what mommy thinks about the weather.
If we have the point guards and power forwards in our system, we only need a few more men, and a couple of years for the boys to become men. We’ll be battling Portland and OKC, not the Spurs and the Cavs by then, so Kahn may have the right idea.
I like a 2G and Center in the’10 draft, and when they hit age 25 we’ll be competitive. Come on, these guys have to be able to play against Wade, Kobe, B Griffin and LeBron. Let’s just put McHale in the rear view mirror and be real about the level of talent required to win in the league.
The DX page McFly linked to for salaries is completely wrong and I’m pretty sure he was referring to the wrong year anyways. OKC, NJ, NY, ATL, Houston, & Portland are the only teams that have more raw cap space for 2010 then us right now. MIL, Miami, Toronto, & Cleveland will all have a ton of room if Redd, Wade, Bosh, & Lebron opt out
-seenenough
Who cares what the players wanted? The team sucked. Keeping McHale around to cater to a losing roster would have been beyond stupid.
And that doesn’t at all answer the question about free agency. I didn’t hear any free agents saying “hey, I’d really like to play for McHale”.
And I don’t buy that Love is a cornerstone for this team. Or even Al for that matter. If he plays here, Rubio is that guy.
Like Jerry has said, Kahn is very likely to ship Love out rather than overpay him to overlap Jefferson for 30 minutes a night.
OK, Bryan. Let’s agree to disagree. You want to rebuild, I would have liked to see us build upon what we had. Whatever.
Again, I disagree with shipping out Love. He can rebound with the best of them. That isn’t as easy as it looks. Take Rodman- that’s all he did and he made a living at it. I think Kahn will ship Al out of here eventually. He talked earlier about Stoudamire for Al so I don’t think anyone is untouchable on this team.
Al and Klove can be a cornerstone even if Rubio comes over Bryan. I’d wait to see what Love asks for contract demands, i don’t think he’d be ridiculous. something around 4yrs, 16-18M total. i think love would do that deal.
Either way, what we have is what we have. Except for a coach, the team figures to stay as it is until the trade deadline.
Main thing for me is to get Rubio here. Then we can see just how viable a Rubio/Flynn backcourt is, as well as a Jefferson/Love frontcourt. Those are the two things that seem to split Wolves fans, so might as well deal with them ASAP.
If we ship out Al and keep Love, I’m fine with that. I’d prefer Al, but the point for me is we can’t keep them both.
Whoa, here’s an interesting rumor.
The Jazz, Bulls and Blazers are talking a three way trade that would send Boozer to Chicago, Hinrich to Portland, and Tyrus Thomas to Utah.
Maybe we should get in on that. I’d send Craig Smith and Ryan Gomes to one of those teams if it means getting Rudy Fernandez back.
why can’t we keep them both?
you don’t send both gomes and smith for fernandez. portland has no leverage in asking for as much. he’s useless on their bench as far as they are concerned.
Well, we can keep them both. I just don’t think it’s a good idea. We need athleticism and defense out of one of those spots, especially with Rubio and Flynn coming in.
I guess if Love is willing to be a sixth man, but I don’t see that happening…
Not that we’d trade Smith and Gomes for Fernandez. Just that those two guys are the two I’d be willing to move to facilitate a trade.
We’d have to get someone else back to make ends meet anyway. Travis Outlaw? Kyle Korver? James Johnson?
But Fernandez would be the reason to get in on that trade.
out of the 4 you need rebounds and points–high percentage points. AJ and Love give that. defense..thats the problem but can be greatly improved w/improved perimeter defense.
i see love/al playing 30min ppg plus on most nights. now if we get a big next years draft..then love becomes expendable.
and fernandez isn’t even mentioned in that trade 3some.
That’s why we should jump in. If a deal is already in the works, then adding ourselves to it would be easier than trying to start one from scratch. Plus, with two other teams in the mix, Portland probably won’t be so stingy about what they want back. Lots more for them to choose from.
And no, I’m not saying we have to move Love now. Just eventually…probably within the next year and a half or so. Definitely need to find his replacement first though.
Bryan, you’ve got all your marbles banking on a guy who’s sitting in Spain. Are you sure he’s as good as you think he is???
Not all of them. Al and Love aren’t very good compliments to Flynn either.
If you’re going to dump Love, then do it now and let the new group grow together. At some point there has to be cohesion on this team.
ah it would seem to me its a helluva lot easier to do a 1-1 trade than to do a 3-some trade? how many times you had sex? how many times you had a 3some? which one seems harder to get? duh. more people involved means more complications. its obvious portland would love to dump rudy but for what?
I think it’s easier to pull of a four way trade when the three other teams are already 90% there. Plus, again, if the Blazers have a bigger pool to choose from, Rudy probably won’t seem as valuable.
Losing Rudy and getting Craig Smith is one thing. But losing Rudy and getting Kirk Hinrich back….that’s a lot less bad looking.
why the hell would you trade love and then say we need to find his replacement? if we need to replace the guy who not just keep him in the first place?
Bryan is making no sense.
Because his replacement would theoretically offer something Love doesn’t.
That’s like asking why the Jazz would trade Boozer if they just intend to replace him with Millsap and Thomas. Why? because those two do things Boozer doesn’t (which, ironically, is the same thing Love doesn’t do either).
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-player-salaries/year/2010/
hm after doig the ‘exercise’ even this year our team is in better shape than most. there are only 6 teams with a lower salary, and my guess is this doesnt take into account new signings from this FA period or trades. in addition, next year, when it matters, only 3 teams will be lower than us (portland is the only better team) and portland will be higher once they take on a salary like hinrich and someone else. I have a strong feeling a ‘big money’ guy like Johnson might give us a shot.
and what would that be? rebounding? nope. scoring? nope. what? But if the Jazz didn’t have Milsapp they wouldn’t be talking trade Boozer and then oh damn..now we have to replace Boozer. They have Milsap so Boozer is expendable. thats not what you said. you said trade Love and then find his replacement. that makes no sense. either 1) we already have a replacement and thus love is expendable for the right deal, or 2) we have no replacement thus why trade him in the first place?
Defense.
Boozer is not a good defender, and neither is Love.
And they don’t have Millsap. He’s a free agent.
Also, Ty Thomas in particular is a freakish athlete. He can run and jump on an Amare Stoudemire level, which is something else Boozer can’t do and that the Jazz have been missing these last few years.
Milsapp has said he’d resign. Thus they don’t have to find a replacement, they already have one, thus Boozer is expendable for the right deal.
You don’t trade a guy and then go, oh shat, now we need to replace him. thats just stupid.
Freakish athlete who can’t shoot and has no post moves. whoa…yeah i’d rather have that guy than boozer. jazz hve been missing a solid 2 and C for sometime..even back to stockton/malone days.
BUT Millsap hasn’t resigned yet, nor is it guaranteed he will. The Blazers and Thunder are reportedly both offering him over $10mil/year….that’s very likely out of the Jazz’s price range.
Nothing’s official until the contract is filed. Remember last year when Elton Brand said he’d for sure resign with the Clippers….
Mehmet Okur is one of the best centers in the league.
And the value of athleticism shouldn’t be underestimated. Who did the Lakers do better with: Gasol and Odom or Gasol and Bynum? Are the Suns better with Shaq or Amare? Al Jefferson is arguably the most skilled low post scorer in the league, but who went to the Finals? Al Jefferson or Dwight Howard?
I’ve been as critical as anyone of Ty Thomas, but there’s no question he and Millsap are a better fit next to Okur than Boozer.
well then the jazz are even more stupid to trade boozer if what you say is true. then they lose both their power forwards.
you don’t trade one of your own guys only to go oh shat, now we have to find a replacement for him. thats utterly stupid. you either already have a replacement or trade for same position.
They DO have a replacement. Read the trade over again; they get Tyrus Thomas. They’re replacing Boozer with Ty Thomas and hopefully using the extra money to resign Millsap.
And I mean, if this is about Love, I did say we should find his replacement before trading him. So I’m not even sure what you’re arguing here. I agree with you about that.
scoring centers yes, defending centers-no. all i know is the lakers got destroyed by Boston’s front line up last year. Gasol is weak and a pansy, odom is the same-just doesn’t look like it. Thats b/c shaq is way past his prime. NO ONE would’ve taken Amare over Shaq at the same ages. NO ONE. Thats b/c A) KG was injured, B) the eastern conference is pathetic.
No, the Jazz need low post scoring–thomas does not give that. Okur gives out outside shooting dragging opposing C out, thus opening the post for Boozer. Now if they keep Milsap boozer is expendable if not, he’s not. thomas is not a replacement for boozer.
The Jazz need DEFENSE. Their problem the last three years has never been scoring…they’ve proven they can score with any team in the league. They averaged over 100ppg in the playoffs against the Lakers.
Problem is they gave up over 110ppg. That’s not a scoring problem.
You said it yourself; Okur is not a good defender. Are you saying Boozer is? Or are you agreeing that the Jazz play bad defense?
TYRUS THOMAS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR BOOZER. boozer has post moves, boozer can score, etc. thomas can do NONE of that. thats not replacing boozer just sticking someone else into his spot.
Milsap is an actual replacement for Boozer, he rebounds, scores down low, and has a decent shot. Thomas has nothing offensively. NOTHING. and how long has he been in the league?
Why trade Love then? why do you assume he’s going to be demanding big money? i think the’ll take 20M/4yrs. or 25/5.
Boozer can play defense. I’d rather take someone who has the potential to negate his player rather than giving up nothing but negatives everytime his guy score. Not to mention Thomas is not known as a lock down defender or anything close.
Exactly, the problem is they have NO ONE to guard 2 guards. They need a 2 guard not a Thomas for Boozer. that would do nothing for them. But Okur facilitates their offense by dragging their C out and opening it up for Boozer/Milsap. Thomas would do nothing w/that open space. NOTHING. hence, thomas is not a replacement for boozer.
Jazz only play bad defense at guards..williams isn’t that great and they have no defensive 2guard.
Because Love and Jefferson defend about as well as Boozer and Okur. AKA not at all.
All you seem to care about is post scoring. Again, are you saying Al Jefferson is better than Dwight Howard? There’s more to basketball than points, you know.
If you could re-do last year’s draft, how would you rank the top 7 or 8 guys?
Rose — then? Some combination of Westbrook/Mayo/Love/Lopez/Beasley, but in what order?
Boozer’s a good defender? A 6′9″ power forward who blocked 9 shots ALL SEASON is a good defender?
No wonder you think Love and Jefferson are a great frontcourt…
Jefferson is learning a new position–center. and love just spend a year learning nba defense. i mean geezus, ever hear of a learning period. not to mention part of their problem was the porous perimeter defense. hence, Jazz get a 2 guard who can play defense, defensive pressure eases up on Boozer/okur. not to mention both boozer/okur have the potential offensively to negate their opponent. Thomas does not. Thomas’ guy scores 20pts, his team is 20pts in the hole as Thomas gives you NOTHING offensively.
AJ is a much better post scorer than Howard yes. you disagree? Yes and i’m saying its better to have offensive studs who can play some defense than defensive studs who have no offense to speak of. common sense. in a perfect world you get both stud on defense/offense. however MJ’s only come around every few hundred years.
newsflash you can play good defense w/o blocking shots moron. i mean geezus there’s stupid and then there’s stupid.
Every few hundred years? So Kobe Bryant’s not good on defense? LeBron James? Dwyane Wade?
What I’m hearing is “I’d rather have Al Jefferson than Dwight Howard”. You have no credibility if that’s what you’re really saying.
FYI Tyrus Thomas averaged 15ppg on 47% shooting the last four months of the season when he started getting real playing time.
So your “gives them nothing” comment is pretty absurd.
no but Kobe is NO MJ. not even close. neither is james or wade. not even close.
Why not? cuz Howard blocks more shots? B/c howards is a better C? AJ is a better low post scorer than Howard. you agree? sounds like you do.
ooh, so he had a good 4mo stretch. Look at his career avg’s, compare them to boozer’s and then see how thomas is not his replacement. Compared to Boozer thomas gives them nothing. put him 1-1 in the post and thomas does nothing. nada.
no one dominated the game on offense and defense the way MJ did. No one. ever. james/wade have the potential to do so, but neither is there yet. kobe will never get there. he’s already shown he folds when the pressure is on him severl times.
You can teach an athlete to play D. You can’t teach a player to score….. Guys who can score are harder to find. Most young guys come in as scorers Labron was brutal on D until this year. Wade doesn’t defend most nights. Don’t confuse getting some steals with containing your man and rotating on D.
about time someone else had a brain.
So you really would rather have Jefferson than Howard.
Sad…
why’s that sad? what has Howard done?
why are you 2 arguing…
if Rubio comes over, I actually think, if everyone stays healthy for the most part, this team can make some noise.
Ellington, while raw and 1-dimensional, adds that shooter the team has needed for awhile. Foye only was a good shooter when he was on, and Miller refused to shoot (but did the little things).
Brewer, when healthy does the little things almost as well as Miller does, is a better defender and he is developing his shot.
Gomes is a solid player both on offense and defense.
Smith is offense off the bench.
Love is learning and just might get better. he’s got a nice step in the post, and has a nice outside shot. my hope is he put on some muscle this offseason.
Flynn is electric. he has an amazing x-over, he’s a terror in the lanes on both sides of the ball, and he can jump higher than just about anyone at his position.
the darkhorses are Thomas, Songaila, and Pecherov.
Thomas has shown the ability to get after it on the offensive glass (like Love) and can give you energy on both sides of the ball. he plays bigger than he is, and is a good complement to Al (when and if healthy that is). Songaila is a vet that plays like Love without as much rebounding. and Pecherov is a long and lean guy who can play 3-4-5 that can rebound and score at a good clip without much defense as of yet.
i think the team has some interesting pieces. they just need to come together, and find those pieces that will fit with them next year.
is AJ not a better post scorer than howard?
Al Jefferson is a much better post scorer than Howard.
Howard is a much better athlete and defender.
Remind me….which one of them went to the Finals?
those three darkhorses are nothing but trade bait to be included w/someone else.
remind me which one got his ass beat in the finals? Iverson made the finals once? who gives a shat?
which one of them plays in the eastern conference? which one only got to the finals the year kg was injured? hmmm…
shat if the wolves were in the EC they would’ve made out of the first round at least one of those 7consec years.
Better to get beat in the Finals than not make it at all.
But I mean, I guess if you’re content with Al Jefferson putting up bigger numbers and getting us fewer wins, that’s your deal.
LOL are you serious? The Celtics had our team PLUS Paul Pierce and were the worst team in the NBA. And you’re going to tell me we would have gotten out of the first round?
Wow. I’m done. You’re clinically insane.
who says AJ won’t make it all and win it? if you can score better you have a better chance of winning.
AJ having fewer wins just means his team is worse than Howards, that does nothing to take away from AJ’s abilities.
Fact is AJ is a better low post scorer than Howard is. Not to mention howards been playing C for how long? how long has AJ been playing C? for being undersized and having a horrible perimeter defense..AJ does quite well.
Ah yeah, a few years the teams in the EC playoffs had losing records..i’m stating we would’ve beaten one of those teams at least one of those 7yrs. look at what happened to all those EC teams in the finals those years. it wasn’t even a contest. Philly got schooled, NJ got schooled twice, cleveland got obliterated, etc.
And you saying AJ has more losses thus is worse than Howard is like saying KG sucked when he was here b/c he never got out of the first round. thats clinically insane. ever mention how i love irony?
and yes i’m saying those KG teams where we had 7yrs of 1st round exits would have made it out of the first round of the EC playoffs had the wolfies been in the EC. the EC has been down on the whole since the few years post-MJ.
Perimeter defense is overrated in terms of post defense. Utah and Houston are living proof that even superior perimeter Ds won’t keep you from getting killed in the post.
Howard is the better player. There’s nothing that can be said to refute that. He does more on the court and his team wins more. Even when Orlando had nothing but Dwight Howard, they won more than we did.
Well ya, the KG teams we had would have. KG made the WCF.
What you were saying is the team we have RIGHT NOW would get out of the first round.
Get real.
Who did HOward have to contend with to get to the finals? Perkins–whoo hoo. Verjao–woo. He didn’t have to play anyone until the finals. When he got some actual competition what happened? he couldn’t score.
KG did not make the WCF in the midst of those 7 consec years of first round exits. can you read? i said those 7consec year teams would have made it out of the 1st round had they been in the EC. simply b/c the EC is much weaker than the WC. fact.
no that is not what i was or am saying. that is merely what you read. work on your comprehension skills.
Well, now you’ve really showed your ignorance.
Howard averaged just 16ppg against Perkins and the Celtics.
Ya, Perkins sure is useless. What a scrub, he can’t score at all, who cares if he’s a defensive beast?
Who cares what KG could have done? We’re talking about the team we have now. So KG could have made it out of the first round in the east. Big deal, what does that prove?
Howards team wins more b/c his team is better, not b/c he is better than AJ. AJ is a better scorer than Howard is you have already agreed to as much.
Utah does not have superior perimtere D and neither does houston..so that point is stupid. FACT is genius, if the other team can’t penetrate it makes post defense much easier. much easier.
And Orlando won more w/just Howard b/c they are in the EC. the EC blows, especially in the post. they are absolutely horrendous. again what did howard do when matched up against actual post players? aka the finals—significantly less. AJ’s best games have come against the better post teams in the league.
Ah i do, b/c you are claiming that Howard is better simply b/c his teams win more, but when you look it you have to take into consideration he plays in the EC, which is far weaker than the WC. far weaker. again, those KG teams of 7consec 1st round exits wouldve made it out if they were in the EC. tells you how much weaker the EC is.
Ah that proves the EC is weaker than the WC. much weaker. thus, negating pretty much everything you’ve said.
med matt I might believe it’s Matt on meds if you think this team can win more than 15 games as assembled. No shooters, lost your 2 best perimeter O players, have 8 power forwards. Love your optimism but this team will struggle.
I agree that Jefferson is a better post scorer.
That does NOT mean I agree he’s the better player.
And LOL, you think Shane Battier and Ron Artest didn’t give Houston superior perimeter defense?
This is too easy. Every post you make just further shows how little you know about basketball.
I’m claiming Howard is better because he’s more athletic, a better rebounder, and a better defender. The fact his team wins more is just proof of all that.
Al Jefferson scores more than Tim Duncan too. Are you telling me he’s better than Timmah?
Exactly, howard can’t even score against mediocre post defenders like Perkins. shows you how good his post game is. howard is not a good scorer. hence i’ll take AJ over Howard.
Perkins a defensive beast? ha ha ha please. KG is a defensive beast, Big Ben WAS a defensive beast, Russel was a defensive beast. not perkins, perkins is avg. thats like saying Varejao is a defensive beast. Varejao sucks and just got significantly overpaid, cleveland is going to regret that signing for the next few years.
I think if Ewing works with Howard he has a higher potential/ceiling, Shaq only had dunks in his first 4 or 5 years, give him time, You can’t teach athleticism or quickness and Howard is more athletic and quicker than Jefferson. Kareem taught Bynum an offensive game and if Howard just had what Bynum had(a nice hook, solid 10 footer) he would be amazing. But they are both still so young we will have to wait 3 or 4 more years to see who is and will be the better player.
How does Perkins hold Dwight Howard 5ppg below his average if he’s not a great defender?
So is Gerald Green better just b/c he’s more athletic? me thinks not. AJ is a better scorer, thus if anything they are even. AJ better scorer, howard better defender. Howard is a better defender b/c he doesn’t have a Love sucking up quite a few rebounds playing along side him. I’ll take AJ over Timmy now yes. Timmy is on the downslope, AJ is still going up.
But if they could ever play together, that would be the best front court in the NBA, they would compliment each other perfectly. Sounds like my first trade in NBA 2K10, whole team but Al for Howard, lol
Howard’s already been in the league how many years? should have a shot already, kind of like Tyrus Thomas..the fact they don’t shows how hard they work in the off season.
Perkins holds him below is avg b/c Howard is not a good scorer. If you are not a good scorer its easier to hold you below your avg. duh.
Is Gerald Green better than who? What a classic example of your faulty logic….asking me a comparison question without giving me the player to compare him to.
And if you think Al Jefferson is better than Tim Duncan, there’s no hope for you. Go back to the Vikings blog where everyone else is at your same low IQ level.
Yeah I agree with Al over no emotion machine Duncan but Al over Howard is a lot tougher, like I said it is close and in the next 3 years we will see, The probem(or not really a problem because he is good alread) is that I think Jefferson is closer to being as good as he can get than Howard is, I think that Howard has more room to improve, but who knows if he will
Exactly. Howard can learn to improve his footwork and scoring. He’s already made huge strides being mentored by Ewing.
Nothing will get Al to jump higher or run faster than he does right now.
Is Gerald Green better than whomever just b/c he is more athletic? nope. simply being more ahtletic does not mean you are good let alone great. Carney is very athletic, he is at best a role player and a 2nd team role player. Thus negating your point that just b/c howard is more athletic he is better than AJ.
Are you honestly saying that you as GM for the wolves would trade your young stud for an old Timmy who has a few years left? talk about clinically insane.
Bryan- Duncan is on the down side, he may be as good or a little better than Al right now but Al is already putting up better numbers
Duncan 19 and 11 on 50.4% shooting
Al 23 and 11 on 49.7 shooting
They both averaging 1.7 blocks and the only reason Duncan may be a little better now is that he is a better post defender but getting worse as he ages, not as quick, I was making the same argument about Rasheed and KG being good defenders still but not as good as they were 5 years ago
I would only trade Jefferson for a handful(5 or 6) of players straight up
well of course howard has more room to improve, his offensive skills are marginal at best. Same token, AJ can get better on defense. so again bryan they if anything even. both young and both talented just in different sides of the court.
And again Bryan if you’d rather have Duncan on the Wolves than AJ at this point in their careers you are a moron. We are not going anywhere the next 2-3yrs..timmy will be well past his prime at that point and AJ will be in his. try again.
And yes you can get AJ to be faster and jump higher..its called working out.
It’s not work that is keeping Howard from scoring it’s his touch. He has no touch. His ball is always being shot hard. His misses just rocket off rim. Big Al has as nice of a touch as a player can have.
Duncan right now is still better than Jefferson. And all time it’s not even close.
And no, Gerald Green is not better than Jefferson. But he also doesn’t play the same position. Nor is he as good on the glass or defensively as Howard.
Howard isn’t better than Jefferson because he’s more athletic. He’s better because he’s more athletic AND a better rebounder AND a better defender, and still puts up 20ppg a night.
ever hear of plyometrics? that gets your feet faster and improves your hops. again i’ll take a scorer who needs to improv his defense than a defenseive guy who has a limited offensive game. its easier to learn D than O. much easier.
Limited as he may be, Dwight still puts up 20ppg. Just 3 less than Jefferson.
I’m with C-note only a few players that Wolves should trade Al for.
Is Dwight Howard one of them?
Howard just reminds me so much of Shaq in Orlando, I use to love watching him, his shots would rocket off the rim from his hook shots too and he mastered that little wrist flip and great spin moves and he was unstoppable in LA(unless ft shooting, lol)
According to stats no Duncan is not better, AJ has more points and the rebounds are the same. so what is your basis for stating timmy is better?
as the franchise is rebuilding you do not trade a young stud for an out of his prime player. common sense moron. Thus yes i’ll take AJ over Duncan.
But Green is more athletic than AJ so how can he not be better? just like howard is more athletic right? thank you for agreeing with me finally. just b/c one player is more athletic doesn’t mean he is better. hence its a moot point to even bring up. stupid move on your part.
No matter, you can compare players who do not play the same position, you’re just pissed off i exposed the flwas in your arugment.
Howard is a better rebounder b/c he is the ONLY post player on his team. Take Love off the wolves and there are alot more rebounds available for AJ. NOt to mention based on your newly defiend criteria of being a better player means having more rebounds and being more athletic..does that mean Big Ben was better than AJ? he avg’d more rebounds than AJ did and was more or at least better athletically than AJ. course the problem comes in when you factor in their offensive production. no one in the league would’ve taken Big Ben then over AJ now.
You are an idiot if all you look at is athleticism and rebounds in determining the better player.
Anyway, the original question was whether it’s worthwhile to trade Boozer for Tyrus Thomas and the chance to resign Millsap.
So I’ll pose it this way: would you guys trade Kevin Love for, say, Josh Smith? Andris Biedrins? Emeka Okafor?
If they called me and said Al for Howard and I had to decide…… Howard but it would be so hard, just because I have some faith that he will improve a lot on offense, but who knows
That’s not the question Arenal. Learn to read.
The question is is Duncan better than Jefferson?
Woo-hoo DH puts up 20ppg against the stallions of the EC. tell me honestly, who the hell does he have to compete with? not the pryzbella, oden, odom, bynum, shaq’s(this year anyway), stoudemire, duncan, dampier, Lopez….
Dh has to worry about who? Varejao? please. Lopez on NJ? please. KG–only one he has to worry about. Bucks–absolutely no one to guard him..thus should score 40ppg against them, but doesn’t. Pacers? same thing-no one. Bulls..same thing-no one. Knicks? no one. Lee isn’t that great, good but not great.
Again his stats are better b/c he is in the EC where the competition night in/night out is far less than in the WC.
The question retard is, who would you rather have on the wolves right now? duncan or aj? i’ll take aj. twice on sunday. common sense.
I think Boozer was really their best low post scorer but they will probably lose him and this way they get younger and add depth for the next couple years with
Okur, Millsap, and Thomas, and i guess AK47, maybe
I would trade Love for Smith, because I would love seeing him at the SF flying down the court for us. Biedrins, maybe, Okafor no
Heavy consideration on Howard for Al. The way we’re assembled now Big Al will get you more wins cause he can carry a team offensively. With good solid perimeter players around him probably Howard but not on this squad.
The Magic beat all those teams you mentioned. So to say he wouldn’t be able to handle the level of competition in the west is pretty naive.
It’s obvious to me now that this blog has no idea how important defense is to winning in the NBA.
If you guys think Love and Jefferson (or Boozer and Okur) are viable championship frontcourts, then we’re in for another 10 years of whining about this team being mediocre.
DH against the Bucks/Pacers/Bulls/Heat should average 30+ppg if he was any kind of scoring threat. If DH had AJ’s offensive game he would destroy those teams since they have absolutely no one to guard him, yet he does not. why? b/c his offensive game is weak.
Josh Smith is legally brain dead. His own teammates don’t like him and he’s constantly bitching about something. No Smith please.
Again genius you can have good post defense w/good limited post defenders if you have good perimter defenders. Think Bulls w/Scottie and MJ. they had no studs in the post, Rodman was good at rebounds but defense–not really. Longley was a defensive stiff. Purdue? Wellington? please.
I think you undersestimate how much good perimeter D helps post defense. most likely b/c you have never played ball.
If DH had Al’s O he’d be the best center EVER.
Aaah, Arenal, the man of many childish insults has gotten himself into quite a mess. Al Jefferson is better than Dwight Howard? Ha ha ha. That’s a good one. Keep arguing. Let the foolishness flow.
You’re idiocy betrays you, oh Arenal. There isn’t a GM in the league who would take AJ over Howard.
and offense is just as important in winning in the NBA. if you can’t score you’ll also lose. genius.
Jefferson only averaged 25ppg against Chicago, 21ppg against the Bucks, 12ppg against the Pacers and a paltry 9ppg against the Heat last year.
Yet another one of your wild fantasies disproven.
As weak is Howard is on Offense, AJ is on Defense. thus if anything they are even, just w/opposite defeciencies.
is it easier to learn D or O? consensus opinion is it takes less time to learn defense than offense. hence i’ll take AJ. its easier to find stiffs who can play some D than it is to find guys who can score in the low post. common sense.
If offense is so important, why can’t the Suns and Jazz ever beat the Lakers and Spurs? Genius?
thats b/c the Bucks/Bulls/Pacers have guys to guard AJ, he’s not 7′ tall. Howard is..those teams have absolutely no one to guard howard yet he still doesn’t destroy them. why? b/c his offensive game is not that great. i don’t know why you keep arguing me on this when you have already agreed, AJ is a much better offensive player than Dh is.
And there’s where we disagree. I’d rather have a great defender who needs to work on his offense.
Defense is like court vision. If you’re really good at it, you were born with it. I’ve never seen a player become a great defender without starting out as one.
Suns have beat the spurs and the Jazz have beat the lakers, they don’t know b/c the spurs are better than the suns at both offense and defense and the latkers are better than the jazz at both offense and defense. you said defense is important, all i said was that offense is to. common sense.
the jazz have no 2g. the suns have no post game to speak of. the suns will rue the day the passed on KG for amare.
Don’t backpedal too quickly Arenal. You said Al would average 30ppg against those teams, and I proved he didn’t. Just accept you were wrong.
Funny. I seem to remember the Suns losing to the Spurs three straight years in a row in the playoffs.
Oh to be bad at offense and average over 20 points a game.
Let’s come up with a fresh argument. Perhaps how Michael Redd is better than Kobe? Or Wally is better than Lebron? Come one Arenal. Challenge yourself. Let your stupidity flow.
and i’d rather teach the offensive stud to guard someone that teach on the myriad of offensive moves that are needed to be effective in the nba.
and offense is like instincts, you are just born with it. thus back at ya genius. MJ was a great defender, he started out avg. come to think of it MJ was an athletic freak but an avg player until a few years in the league, then he dominated.
Defense is all about mindset. Offense is about talent. alot of guys get by in the nba based on being defensive players, few get by based on their offensive skills alone. offense takes talent, defense takes balls/guts/determination.
ah yeah i can be bad at offense and play against subpar talent and put up 20ppg. does that mean i’m a stud? no, just means i’m playing against piss-poor talent. Howard has his avg reduced by Perkins for god’s sake. That alone tells you how limited his offensive game is. KG destroyed Gasol/odom, how did Howard to against them? right.
Thats b/c the Spurs were better than the Suns both offensivel AND defensively stupid.
The Spurs are not better than the Suns were offensively. Just compare their total PPG.
Why you make these statements that can be so easily disproven, I’ll never understand.
Arenal, I know what you are saying. It was just like that Shaq character. What a clumsy fellow he is. Pushing people out of the way and dunking all the time. Where was that innate offensive talent? Where were the creative moves? Where’s the artistry. You’re either born with it or not? I’d take AJ over Shaq in his prime any day too. Such a crude hulking figure that Shaq.
AH yes the Spurs were better than the Suns offensively, how can you say there were not? they scored more than the suns did, thats how they won.
compare their total ppg? ah you said the spurs won, hence the spurs had a greater ppg.
why you make such stupid statements, like being more athletic and getting more rebounds alone makes you the superior player is beyond me.
BTW Kevin Garnett only averaged 17ppg in the 08 Finals against the Lakers.
Yet ANOTHER false statement you’ve made.
The Spurs won because they held the Suns below their regular PPG average. Not because they scored more than the Suns usually did.
Idiot. You have the same logical void in your head as Marty.
Jordan improved his jumpshot, Howard can learn a hook shot and a flip shot, thats really all he needs, Thats all Shaq ever needed and Howard is already a better ft shooter(just barely though)
where did is say what KG avg’d in the PO’s? never mentioned his scoring avg.
The spurs won b/c they were the better team, both offensively and defensively. see to win, you have to score more than the other team thus you have to defend better than they do to. you can defend better and still lose if you can’t score for squat. you can still lose if you can score but can’t defend. hence, as i’ve said before..you need both. not just defense as you stated. common sense.
You said KG dominated the Lakers in the finals, and considering that your problem with Howard in the finals was his scoring, you obviously meant KG dominated by scoring a lot more than Howard.
Ya, KG averaged a whole 1ppg more. Dominant.
are you really arguing that AJ’s offense isn’t better than Howards? no your not. thus how can you say he is better? if anything they are even.
Its easier to learn defense than offense in the NBA.
Anyone who watched the finals clearly saw that KG dominated Gasol and Odom. it wasn’t even a contest. ppg says nothing about that. Pippen dominated the Pacers in 98 yet didn’t score much. how is this possible? he did it on defense while still putting up offensive numbers. Howard didn’t put up offensive numbers against the lakers. why? b/c he has no post moves.
don’t assume, for its spelled ASS and thats what you become when you assume. KG was dominant, his team won. DH wasn’t and his team lost..Dh wasn’t even dominant on defense for all your praise of his defensive skills.
You are so stupid. How many times do I have to explain to you that Howard is better because he’s more athletic, a better rebounder and a better defender.
God, it’s like talking to a 4 year old. You forget everything I say after two minutes.
Anyway, my ideal scenario is to trade for Rudy Fernandez. Then trade Love for a guy like Biedrins, or draft JaJuan Johnson, Greg Monroe or Jerome Jordan.
After that, it’s just a matter of gaining experience and chemistry, and filling in minor holes.
Bryan,
Did you apply for the GM job? Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out. And you’re not afraid to throw a few names at people who don’t agree with you. I hope you treat your wife/boyfriend better than that.
My girlfriend, as Arenal likes to say, is his fat mama.
And no, I don’t treat her better than I treat him.
If you’re wrong, you’re wrong. And if you’re wrong because you’re stupid, you’re wrong because you’re stupid.
Kids, I’m back! class is open for biz.
Yawn.
Jerry, any idea when Flynn and Ellington are officially signing their contracts?
saying someone is better just b/c they are more athletic is insanely stupid. By that logic Green is one of the premier guards b/c he’s so athletic. utter absurdity.
See? You did it again.
For the 4th time, I said Howard is better because he’s more athletic, A BETTER REBOUNDER, AND A BETTER DEFENDER.
You must get your memory lapses from your fat mama too.
Hey, someone give Bryan a happy pill.
Don’t need one. I’m pretty sure “happy pills” are what’s wrong with Arenal in the first place.
Selective vision, memory gaps, wild fantasies. The symptoms all fit.
What’s the problem here guys? Al is a great young player and we are happy to have him. Probably has the best low post player in the game out of all the young guys in the league. If he gets stronger and fitter and steps up his D, he could have a Hall of Fame career.
Dwight is an athletic freak who’s probably the most athletic center ever to play the game. You just can’t teach reaching above the backboard. If he learns a few post moves could be one of the top centers in NBA history.
Where they go from here is really about heart and head.
Both are great in their own ways. Can we just leave it at that?
and again for the 89th time, Howard gets more rebounds b/c he is the only post player on the Magic, he doesn’t have a Love gobbling up rebounds. DH is a better defender but AJ is a better offensive player so they are even there, if anything i give the nod to AJ b/c its easier to learn D than it is O.
you’ve got to be kidding? mama jokes? are you that old or that lacking of an imagination? that shat went out of style 10yrs ago.
Can same the same about you–wild fantasies of just b/c someone is more athletic automatically means they are a better player. insane.
thats my point RODMAN: AJ is already one of the premier PF’s in the league, stats say it. Howards is not one of the premier scoring centers in the league. There are alot of defensive C’s so thats not that big of a deal. Look at Pryzbella..good defensively, not much of an offensive game.
How many centers average 20ppg Arenal?
Meannn, u still @ it? Go take a nap.
Good lord, what a train wreck this thread is.
lol, I started getting into the debate but now I just check back to see the so called train wreck
I feel like being controversial today.
Easy to do when the people that try to argue with me are so wrong.
any decent center who plays in the EC can avg 20ppg. not that difficult. who does Howard go up against in the EC? no one.
fact is howard has a limited offfensive game. fact is AJ’s offense is better than DH’s you’ve even agreed to this. thus not sure wtf you are arguing about.
You’d rather have DH b/c of his defense and rebounding. I’d rather have AJ b/c of his offensive game and given the fact players pick can pick up on offense quicker than defense.
Offense requires summers off to work on your game. you can get taught defense in pre-season camps.
How many defensive C’s are there in the league? plenty. how many C’s are there w/AJ’s offense? very few to none.
Name another “decent” center that averages 20ppg in the east then.
No posts since 2:00 in the morning? Maybe Bryan & Arenal’s computers finally melted down, and they’re sleeping in!
Anyway, still waiting for Foo to jump back on and respond to my question about the Shooter story…
anyone want me to voice again, my view on Al Jefferson??
nope, didn’t think so.
I’ll add this. he’ll never be a hall of famer.
there I said it…again…for the 30th time
Just as a point of information — in the 2008-09 season, Al Jefferson had a higher scoring average against the West (24.8 ppg) than the East (20.2 ppg).
Meawnehile, Dwight Howard averaged 21.2 ppg against the East last year.
Whaaaaaaat ? Big Al is gonna be a hall of famer…he’ll have his jersey right next to Love’s.
And to whoever said D-Ho was the most athletic center ever can eat a shoe…then they can go look up a guy named Olajuwon, Hakeem.
The Utah Jazz starting #2 was Ronnie Brewer and he is actually a pretty good defender.
Swan
Actually by most definitions of athleticsim Howard is more athletic.
He can jump higher, run faster, and is stronger. I’m not sure how else you define athleticism.
Hakeem was a better player though.
Pffffffffttttttt !
Part of athleticism is grace !
The notion that the Jazz are a bad defensive team is somewhat overplayed, I think. Their points allowed per 100 possessions was 10th in the league. They forced turnovers at the second highest rate in the league. They aren’t an elite defensive team, but they certainly aren’t a bad defensive team, either. I also would say they get more out of themselves defensively than the individual talents of their players would lead you to believe.
Swan- I do agree that Hakeem was more agile just not overall more athletic.
The Jazz would be a much better team in my opinion if they make that trade though. Not only is Thomas a better defender than Boozer but so is Milsap. The more minutes Milsap gets the better you’d think their team Defense would be. Granted Boozer didn’t play much last year anyway.
Add another name to the coaching search:
Elston Turner
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2009-07-09-1391562222_x.htm
Amazing the way the discussion goes when theirs no new news about the Wolves….
Elston Turner??????
That name is about as recognizable as “David Kahn” was.
The Flynn, Ellington signings will come today, just as they’re arriving in Vegas to start practicing with the summer-league team for Sunday’s opener.
Turner was on Adelman’s staff in Sacramento, then was in Portland for four years (Kahn conenction!), before rejoining Adelman in Houston.
He was the runner-up in the Phoenix coaching search last year.
Hall of famer? There is question as to whether Jefferson will ever be an all star. Jefferson scored 23 ppg in an offense that ran entirely through him. He had the worst FG%/efficiency of any big name center. I think everyone focuses on those buckets that he made through impossibly sweet post moves and forgets all the missed shots. He missed almost as many shots per game (10) as Howard attempted (12). Centers with more points per shot are too numerous to list. Suffice to say that Jefferson’s numbers in this category are equal to Gomes.
You can make the argument that Jefferson had to carry the weight of a bad team, and took shots he wouldn’t ordinarily take. Well, this cuts both ways. With more scoring options Jefferson’s scoring numbers go down and he’s no longer a 23 point a game guy.
Jefferson has improved every year in the league, so the book on big Al has not been written, but why wouldn’t anyone think that Love has more upside. I know Bryan won’t because his view of the game doesn’t extend to below the rim. But in the real world where the best athletes are rarely the best players, Love’s first year stats are on a level that Jefferson didn’t touch until his 3rd year in the league.
So yes, Jefferson is the best offensive weapon the Wolves have right now. But let’s not get carried away with his overall basketball abilities.
Bryan, why don’t you just save yourself the grief and become a Warriors fan. There are a dozen athletic wings on the team. An athletic shot blocking center, a wickedly athletic high flying 6′11″ PF. In short, a team of greyhounds and athletes. Sure they won as many games as the Wolves last year, but how could they fail with that much athletic potential?
Jefferson did great last year considering he played out of position all season. If the team gets a real center Jefferson will dominate even more and make the team that much better…..Kahn just trade Love for a legit center…
5&10 — Or, adding options around Jefferson might allow him the additional space required to blossom even more offensively. I give you as precedent Kevin Garnett, who had his finest offensive season in 2003-04, when the Wolves added Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell to give him the finest supporting cast he ever had.
The thing Jefferson has that Love (at this point) doesn’t is a reliable high-level means of scoring. Jefferson is an excellent low post scorer. Love doesn’t have a similar go-to offensively currently.
Jefferson did not play out of position. He wanted to sit down in the low post and that’s what he did. If he was paired with a bigger teammate it might mean that he would be guarded by a smaller defender, but it just means he would need to beat a quicker, rather than a bigger guy. Neither would dramatically alter the effectiveness of his offensive game. Where he played on defense is not the issue.
Sean, you’re axactly right, but Jefferson acquired those skills with time in the league, which is what Love has not had yet. Jefferson did not reach his current skill level due to physical dominance, so why is everyone so sure that Love could not equivalent (but slightly different) offensive skill? His rookie numbers were much better.
Jefferson is not necessarily better when paired with a legit center, as sportsjunkie suggests. Jefferson is best when paired with a guy not operating in the low post, but an active mobile big. He’d work well with Biedrens, who would be out setting screens and rolling to the hoop, maybe getting a pass from Jefferson if he loses the tunnel vision. Jefferson does not need another big clogging the lane.
Yawn. Some dudes need to get a room, or a job.
So how do we get Rudy Fernandez? He’s actually a good fit for us as well as being a Ricky magnate, isn’t he?
For kicks, let’s go back to Kilrathi’s post from 8:07 last night:
“If you could re-do last year’s draft, how would you rank the top 7 or 8 guys?
Rose — then? Some combination of Westbrook/Mayo/Love/Lopez/Beasley, but in what order?”
More pointedly, if you’re the Wolves, would you take (or trade for) Lopez over Love/Mayo knowing what we know now? I don’t think here anyone wanted Lopez this time last year.
5&10 — I alluded to the point regarding Love’s potential for development in my post. However, Jefferson was still a very effective offensive player even as a rookie. He shot 53% from the field and his true shooting and effective field goal percentage were both higher than Love’s. I can understand how you might feel Love has more upside, but I think there’s a very reasonable case to be made that it’s likely Love will never be as potent offensively as Jefferson.
charlie t if you are referring to Bryan than you are correct.
Sean, my point is that Jefferson’s offense is a bit overrated as a result of his high scoring average, and that Love’s offensive potential is underappreciated. I have no idea where either will end up, but you’re right that the money probably favors Jefferson, just because production trumps potential. I would guess that Love will never be the inside scorer that Jefferson is, but will have a much better outside game. I think Love will be a much better overall contributor to a team, but he could stall out if I am overestimating his work ethic.
Wow, we need a new post or something, since this is starting to go in circles.
To answer Dan’s response to my question above, yeah, I’d take Lopez over Love. I do like Love, but Lopez is exactly the prototype center a lot of us are talking about. He’s a quality rebounder, good defender, shotblocker and high % shooting (and I think he’ll be a better scorer this year now that he’ll get more touches). Not a superstar, but a quality 15-10 guy for a decade or more, with a game that would nicely compliment Al’s. My brother was really into him around draft time and I couldn’t get excited for him, but in retrospect I think he was right.
Definitely if we could have grabbed Mayo and then traded him for Lopez + whatever would make up a 7 pick difference, I’d have done it (other than that trading for Love let us get Miller which let us get Ricky…).
My picks, in general, would be something like (not just for the Wolves):
Rose
Westbrook
Beasley
Lopez
Love
Mayo (scorers are easy to find)
Anthony Randolph
Gordon
thinking out loud here, Westbrook would look awfully nice in a Wolves jersey, too.
“thinking out loud here, Westbrook would look awfully nice in a Wolves jersey, too”
I think you ment thinking in print here.
An eponymous comment by Pointless but, yeah, sure, if you want to be literal about it.
Bill Simmons is still not happy with the Flynn pick. From today:
Q: Who would you have drafted with Minnesota’s two top-six picks? What would you have done? I don’t like the fact that we have seven point guards either, but we had to take Rubio even if he stays in Spain.
– J.T., Minnesota
SG: I would have drafted Ricky Rubio at No. 5 and Stephen Curry at No. 6. Then I would have sent Rubio 10 hours of Curry tapes and told him, “Look, we’re pairing you with an undersized guard with 28-foot range who could get off a 3-pointer if he were trapped in a phone booth. He’s electric. You will love him. You also get to play with Al Jefferson, who’s one of the best low-post players alive when healthy. And you get to play with Kevin Love, a top-10 rebounder who shoots 3s and throws outlets like Wes Unseld. It’s going to be a really, really, really fun team right away. We might get killed by scoring 2-guards with size, but so be it. We’ll figure that part out later. In the meantime, we want to give you the car keys and make you a star. This is your team starting today. If you want us to sign Spanish dudes as our 11th and 12th men so you have people to hang out with, we’ll do that, too. We just want to make you happy. Come play with us.”
Here’s what I wouldn’t have done: taken a second point guard (Jonny Flynn) at No. 6, then vowed to play them together. That pick was transparent — Flynn clearly was a “here’s our backup plan if we don’t sign Rubio” selection. Rubio saw right through it. Now he’s probably going back to Spain, and by the time he joins the NBA, David Kahn will be gone. Here’s to four years of a hot-poop sundae, Wolves fans! Enjoy. Would you like whipped cream on that? How ’bout a cherry?
2008 do over draft
Rose
Beasley
Mayo
Lopez
Westbrook
Love
Rose is already a star
Beasley, if he can play some defense, could easily become a star
Mayo looks like a good second tier shooting guard
Lopez looks like he could appear in a few all star games
Westbrook shows some promise but needs to act more like a point guard and not shoot so much if he wants to reach his potential
Love needs to be able to consistently knock down 18-20 ft shots…if he does that he and Jefferson could look very good in the high and low post game
How bout trading Rubio’s rights or KLove for Beasley
many people have suggested trying to sign Joe Johnson next offseason…Mayo’s numbers already look better than Johnson’s…I ‘d prefer to try and draft a young scorer rather than sign a guy like Johnson at 15 mil/year
I am sure Miami is dying to trade Beasley for KLove or Rubio. Obviously, there would have to be other pieces included in that trade, but if Miami were to sour on Beasley I would trade Klove and something for Beasley and filler.
Madison Dan is exactly correct.
And, when Ricky didn’t show up we’d still have a point guard, a guy who can score, and a guy with a 15 year career in front of him. I’d say fine to Flynn and Curry, but Flynn and Rubio? This franchise is cursed, from the top down. Amateur hour at the pro level, Pooh Richardson is the poster boy and the saga continues.
If Love can knock down the 18 ft with a high % he’ll be better than Lopez especially with Big AL. A Lopez AL combo is not good together. Love can really pass the ball but Lopez is 7 foot. Given a chance they’ll be good but the way this is going they’ll both be gone. I’ve noticed if you play for someone else or haven’t played a minute of actual NBA ball you’re better than anyone the Wolves have or had.
