Up next: Brandon and the Bucks Friday night at Target Center
Posted on November 5th, 2009 – 10:27 PMBy Jerry Zgoda
The 1-4 Wolves worked out for about two hours today at Target Center the afternoon after Wednesday’s late loss to the Celtics.
A couple topics of interest today:
* The Wolves have hired former Wolves guard Darrick Martin for that player-personnel coach job that’s part of David Kahn’s plan to make the Wolves the league leaders in player development.
Martin was one of several candidates auditioned — former Wolves Tony Campbell and Chris Carr were among that group — and it’s probably no coincidence that the team ultimately chose a former point guard. Make sense with so much invested in Jonny Flynn, Ramon Sessions and Ricky Rubio.
The other part of that player development equation is the Dallas-based clinical psychologist Kahn has hired. Dr. Yolanda Brooks has been around the team quite a bit to observe its dynamics. Kahn hired her as a resource to help players with any off-court issues they might have.
* Rookie point guard Brandon Jennings comes to town tomorrow night in a meeting with Flynn, two of the top 10 players taken in last summer’s draft. They’ve already met twice in the preseason. Jennings’ regular season start has been, well, impressive. A work colleague and admitted Bucks fans texted me the other night after watching Jennings play Detroit and the essence of the text was “OMG.”
Here’s a point I’ve been thinking about: Kahn waited until August — more than six weeks after the draft and nearly three months after he was hired — to hire a coach because he said he wanted to be sure he wanted to be absolutely sure he was making the right call with such an important decision.
Isn’t a little incongruous that he took two point guards with those fifth and sixth picks and then hired a coach who runs an offense that, well, doesn’t minimize the point guard but certainly doesn’t entrust the ball in their hands and rely upon them to create.
I asked Sessions after practice today the difference between playing point guard for the Bucks’ system and the Wolves and he basically said Scott Skiles was a point guard, Rambis was a big guy.
I’ve got a feeling some folks in time might start making comparisons between Jennings and Flynn simply using stats.
The comparison is obvious because they were four picks apart in the same draft class, but if there’s a discrepancy –and so far there has been — it might well be attributed to systems of play.
You look at all those Lakers and Bulls title teams that ran the triangle and none of them had a dynamic point guard. Can one thrive in such an offense?
Who’s not to say Flynn wouldn’t be putting up the same kind of numbers as Jennings — 22 points, 5.3 assists, 1.7 assists in three games — if he was playing in Skiles’ point-guard oriented offense rather than the triangle.
Your thoughts?
52 Responses to "Up next: Brandon and the Bucks Friday night at Target Center"
Jennings has looked great and Rambis is about playing thru a system and Jennings can basically do what he wants and not have to come out because of a TO. I think Jennings will be the flashy, stats, and hyped pg, but hopefully for us Flynn will be the overall better team player and make us a better team.
I think, as the season wears on, Flynn’s stats will start to get better and better. Remember that Rambis has said that first and foremost we are a transition team, and that’s something that Jonny Flynn can excel at.
I think as he gains more experience and starts demonstrating a grasp of the offense, Rambis will start giving Jonny the freedom to pick-and-roll, isolation, and create more often, and Flynn will catch and maybe pass Jennings as the season wears on.
But you’re right in that if Rambis never wants to let Flynn freelance a little bit, then it will have been proof that you need a coach in place to make significant personnel moves.
I am shocked at how well Jennings and Skiles have worked together so far. Brandon is the kind of point guard Skiles has historically hated.
I don’t know how a long term comparison will work out. I would argue that the triangle actually DOES minimize the point guard. But at the same time, I don’t think it’s ever been utilized with a point guard of Jonny’s talent.
Nor am I convinced that the triangle is the system we’ll be sticking to. I get the feeling Rambis is using it as much as a teaching tool as he is a playbook. And while we can speculate on if/how it hurts Jonny’s production, there’s no question it’s already brought tons of positives to the team…most notably in Corey and Al.
I don’t regret passing on Jennings, and I doubt I ever will.
BUT
I do think that, should the team stick to the triangle, Rubio is probably the point guard we should keep.
re WNBA draft:
I’d favor Jayne Appel by a mile. Here’s why.
Jayne Appel vs Tina Charles:
Scoring: even
Rebounding: even
Blocks: even
Assist: NOT EVEN
In 38 games, Charles posted 41 assists.
In 39 games, Appel posted 108
Cavs lose to Chicago….o now the Bulls have beaten Cleavland and San Antonio already this year.
Chicago that good?
Cleavland that bad?
Both?
Remind me, how many championships has Skiles’ run teams won? How deep in the playoffs has Skiles’ run team gone?
Oh, I didn’t think so.
Now, how many championships has systems-run teams won (Spurs, Lakers, etc.)?
End
Cleaveland is that bad in my opinion. if not for their unconscious 3-point shooting and poor decisions made by certain wolves players, we had a definite shot to win that game.
Appel is my pick too - imagine her alongside Augustus. they could start for the Wolves!
With regards to Rubio, I have doubts about him in the Triangle. he really lacks that jumpshot that helps in the offense - imagine if Flynn had a consistent outside shot instead of prayers inside the 3 point line and a handful of made ones outside it. in addition, until this team gets a SHOOTING guard, there is a need for another guy in the backcourt to step up. at this piont, Flynn has the better shot (no pun intended) to gain a j-shot because he is here now.
also, until this team gets a regular rebounding presence - Love? - they will not ‘run’ as this team has professed they will. honestly, how many fast break points is this team really pulling down? the point guards are doing so much rebounding its hard for them to also run out there on the break - esp with Brewer and his lack of a handle.
Hey, Jerry, how’s my erstwhile beat reporter? Was that you I saw wearing Rambis’ glasses?
Spurs system is on defense not offense. Pops runs a ton of screen roll for Parker and Manu. He drops the ball to Tim on left box, he runs an old school secondary break with good spacing. He demands help/recover defense with 2nd 3rd & 4th effort. I don’t see any help/recover with Wolves yet this season. Pops adapts to offensive talent with what he runs… Not the case so far with Kurt. Not a valid comparison with Spurs, good comparison with Lakers.
LT, give it time. This is a learning season for the Wolves. They are still working to install both offensive and defensive systems.
The Wolves offense will run some off the box aka Duncan, and pick-and-roll remains as aspect of the Wolves new system. They ran several schemes last night including a sideline p-r drawn up for the final play.
Don’t forget, Rambis was tasked last season to develop the Lakers defensive system that looked remarkably similar to that of the Spurs.
Good functional systems, albeit, the Spurs, Lakers, old Bulls, Jazz is the constant of winning franchises.
LT - you’re also wrong on “Pops adapts to offensive talent with what he runs” remark. The Spurs players adapt to the Spurs system, as it should be.
Seems like now a yearly discussion point. Last year it was Kevin Love and the supposed lack of playing time that caused him to lose out on the rookie rewards.
This year it’s Flynn. Well, Flynn is his own worse enemy. It is entirely up to him and his ability to adjust to the NBA that will determine his playing time and subsequent rookie acknowledgments. The first threshold is a winning team, not an individual.
I can’t believe I actually got a couple answers to the mock WNBA draft question…
looking ahead to tonight - the team shoudl haev a pretty good chance of winning. Redd is out (again).
The WNBA is still around ?
Lynx get no.1 but will the other first rounder be 2,3,4 or 5?
its fourth; 1st and 4th is better than 2 and 3 that was projected.
Jerry, this is why I predicted (wrongly) that Rambis would not run the triangle shortly after his hire. Any news on free tickets for the game tonight? Cash flow is a little slow at the moment. . .
Go outside to the scalpers…wait til after the start of the game and talk them down.
Didn’t Kahn come out and say that Rambis wouldn’t run triangle? I think he did but not sure. I saw where someone said Rubio is not a triangle player, couldn’t agree more. In Rubio’s 3 Euro league games (not Spanish league games Kool-aiders) which is the highest level of European play, he’s averaging more to’s than ast and pts. He’s under 2 pts and 2 ast a game. But I’m not worried cause the Kool-aid gang has told me REPEATEDLY that he’s a superstar & Ellington is a 2nd team all-rookie & Hollins is a world class rim protector & Sessions is a steal at 17M & the team will win 35 this year & on & on.
ok i’ll address the ‘kool-aid’ stuff:
Euroleague is not a stats league, especially when they have such large rosters and everyone gets minutes. if rubio got nba minutes he’d have much more stats than he has now.
what have you seen out of the rest of the rookie class that makes you think he can’t? he’s had some good moments, and besides the plethora of PGs, there really hasn’t been a standout guard from this draft class. only ‘two’ i could see going ahead of him at this point is Curry, and he’s a combo guard more than anything.
Hollins can block shots, but he’s been repeatedly guarding mobile bigs, so less of a chance to defend the rim. he does have work to do, but no one here said he was ‘world class’.
sessions at 4 mill shores up your PG spot, whether he’s a starter or your backup. he’s way better than telfair who was getting only 1.6 mill less. i’d take that anyday. eventually, with the rookie wall for Flynn or rambis finally giving in, he will get more minutes.
this team has been in every game this year so far. they nearly took down the favorite to win the East. and this is without klove and Al at 100%. what makes you think they can’t?
You know, Eeyore, if you weren’t so intent on being a jacka$$ we might be able to have some interesting discussions. As I’ve said before, I’m not sold on this triangle business either.
But I guess it’s good to have the real you back — you were going soft there for a few posts. It gets kind of boring around here without your mindless exaggerations to get people fired up. You are the vinegar to our Kool-Aid; the dark to our light; the short bus to our limo.
I just broke down and bought a pair of tickets. My friend (another admitted local Bucks fan) and I will be in attendance cheering on the Flynn/Jennings face off.
Yes the team has been competitive but wouldn’t running an offensive system designed to the talents of Flynn and Sessions be better than one that all but tells Brewer to shoot 25 times a game?
they are playing for the future. this system will ultimately be a very good system for this team to run.
and what are their strengths? pick and roll and trying to beat their guy to the rim? i’d rather them learn something else now while we’re definitely not playoff contenders than have them just do ‘what their strengths’ are over and over without learning a proven NBA system.
LT aka Eeyore, Mr Bleak, etc. is just giving us his sterotypical MN take on things. And everyone else here is fitting in with the sterotype too. When we’re down, we’re really down. When we’re up, we easily over-do it.
IMHO, worst case this year is 10 wins, best case is 30 wins. So I’ll vote for the middle with a littl positive and GUESS 22 wins.
IF Brewer can play with his current level of energy and learn to play under control at the same time, he COULD BE phenominal. His shot mechanics do look better from the small amount I’ve seen. The trouble is he plays like a kid who forgot to take his ADHD meds.
IF Love and Al both return to form in their injury recoveries, and find a way to play well together, THEN I might think it possible to consider a win total closer to 30. On paper, there are some good pieces in place. On the court it’s up to the players and coaches to make the most of what they’ve got.
LT is wrong on Rubio’s numbers in Euroleague. You can check them right here:
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?clubcode=BAR&pcode=LFW&seasoncode=e2009
Rubio is averaging 6.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 6.3 apg, and 1.7 spg. His assist to turnover ratio is 19:7 so far. And Barcelona has won their three games by an average of 17 points per game.
Gee it’s nice when people back up their statements with facts. Thanks Sean.
Jerry, you hit the nail on the head with the Twolves offense. It is a difficult offense for a point guard to thrive.
The pg passes and cuts to corner to start the offense. When he does have the ball at the top or wing, there is at least one player at high post, sometimes one on each elbow. This makes it extremely difficult for a slasher to get to the paint.
The key to having a successful PG in the Triangle is that they are able to shoot and knock down that open 3 pointer from the corner.
Re:Rubio’s Euro numbers, remember that Jennings also had modest contributions last year in Europe. That’s very high level, no discussion of the leagues, teams or systems they play in, etc. But Brandon Jennings had a lot of question marks coming in and has thus far been able to show he can play in this league. I don’t see why it would be any different for Rubio, whether he’s playing here or is dealt somewhere else. Particularly given some of the praise LeBron gave Rubio over the weekend.
That said…I think there are some changes to come in the next year, either moving personnel to match up to Rambis’s system, or maybe Rambis tailoring his system a bit. I think Big Al’s more of an issue than having two quality PG’s on the roster, but at some point push will come to shove.
My understanding of the triangle is that it’s a motion offense. I’ve never taken it to mean that a PG HAS to be a shooter, a SG NEEDS to be a slasher, a C or PF MUST to be a passer, etc, etc. for it to work.
The trouble is the two successful implementations of the offense featured a slashing/scoring SG (MJ, Kobe), a shooting PG (Paxon/Armstrong, Fisher), and a big who could at least be a servicable passer from the post(Cartwright/Longley, O’Neal).
Who’s to say that the shooter couldn’t play SG or SF? The PG can’t be the slasher/scorer? And that Kevin Love can’t be that passing post player? Again, IMHO the Wolves have the pieces to make a triangle style offense work, other than that consistent shooter. Maybe Ellington or Pavlovic fills that role this year as some point, but more likely it’ll be a player who joins the team next offseason. Until then, I hope Rambis is a smart enough coach to balance getting his players to learn the scheme and letting them play to their strengths within it.
I’m going to watch Evan Turner and Jerome Jordan in the NCAA this year in the hopes that they are both Wolves come July 2010.
RUBIO, RICKY
Team: Regal FC Barcelona
Height: 1.92
Born: 21 October, 1990
Nationality: Spain
Position: Guard
Number: 9
Why the hell would the Wolves draft someone that’s 1 foot 9 inches tall
you’re kidding right blah? you do know that Europe uses meters? 
Good one…
Hmmm, I just read John Hollinger who wrote the following:
LeBron to the Wolves in 2010? If the Cavs don’t shape up, Minnesota may be a better fit for the King.
Hollinger loses a bit of credibility there…but then again, that would be HUGE if that has any inkling of happening.
Flynn
Brewer
LeBron
Big Al
Love
not bad at all…
off of espn…
News: Podsednik filed for free agency Thursday, the White Sox’ official site reports.
Spin: The Sox should offer him a deal before he hits the open market. Podsednik was at times the team’s most valuable hitter, hitting .304/.353/.412 in 587 plate-appearances and stealing 30 bases. If the Sox decide not bring him back, he could slide in as a fourth-outfielder elsewhere, or as a leadoff man for a budget-conscious squad.
I say he fits.
oops sorry, wrong thread!
I think LBJ is too loyal to Cleveland as his ‘home town’ and is unlikely to leave. Especially when the Cavs can offer him a deal that’s one year longer and significantly richer than anyone else. It also doesn’t hurt that Clevelands owner if a fairly free spender.
I’d say Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay are likely targets, but I still wouldn’t be surprised if Kahn uses the cap space to go after a star in a trade.
Remind me, how many championships has Skiles’ run teams won? How deep in the playoffs has Skiles’ run team gone?
Oh, I didn’t think so.
Now, how many championships has systems-run teams won (Spurs, Lakers, etc.)?
End
Welcome to Idiot Arguments Using Statistics 101, starring Professor Marty McFly. Look up confounding as it relates to variables in statistics, then try not to use this same overused method of argument ever again, be it wrt basketball, politics, or trying to convince some chick (?) to go on a date.
Would anyone else be intereseted in bringing in a younger player with a smaller contract right now along with a longer bad contract?
Something like Gallinari and Jared Jeffries for Mark Blount, Pecherov, and the Jazz pick? The Wolves would have to take on that extra year of Jeffries contract but they’d get a good young player who is still cheap for a couple more years.
Would these types of deals work? Or should the Wolves specifically target a bigger “star” player that will require at least $10 million per?
i don’t think the Knicks would do that trade. they aren’t getting anything besides salary cap flexibility, which I guess would help in signing LeBron but that is it.
If they are giving up Gallinari, they’d probably end up offering us something else that they have (maybe a first rounder) and get their hands on Rubio.
medschool
I’m thinking the Knicks would try to get enough under the cap to sign two max players. That was their original plan until the cap kept falling. The Wolves might have to take Eddy Curry instead. The trade wouldn’t have to be with the Knicks. But I’d be okay with giving up Rubio for Gallinari depending on what else was included in the trade.
I guess my question was more a strategy question. Would the Wolves be better off waiting a year by picking up someone else’s bad contract with a high ceiling young player for expiring contracts?
oh I see what you are saying.
that would take quite the combination from the other team. we have all the assets in the world, but the other team would need to give up a) a promising young talent that is producing at a small price and b) a contract they want to rid themselves of. that is definitely a possibility.
one issue i see the team taking on that big contract and not being able to sign a marquee free agent.
Rambis must have been reading this Jerry. He said in pregame that Flynn could easily put up the same numbers as Jennings, but he wants Flynn to fit into the bigger picture.
To finish Rejection’s findings
Hmmm, I just read John Hollinger who wrote the following:
Let me throw out an even crazier proposition — Minnesota. The Wolves will have the cap space to make a run at LeBron, depending on a few variables — or at the very least can get there fairly easily if they know there’s a chance for a player of this caliber. (Declining an option on Ryan Gomes, for instance, is done much more easily if it allows you to replace him with the best player in the league.)
Minnesota is generally thought of as one of the NBA’s least-desirable relocation options, but let’s consider it from a winning perspective. Who would you rather play with for the next five years: Al Jefferson or Anderson Varejao? Kevin Love or Ilgauskas? Ricky Rubio or Mo Williams? Jonny Flynn or West? Ramon Sessions or Daniel Gibson? Next year’s fourth pick or next year’s 24th? It’s obvious, isn’t it?
And as Howard Beck points out in today’s New York Times, the advantages of one city over another are minimal from a financial perspective — it’s as easy to put Cleveland, Minnesota or Sacramento on national TV as it is the Knicks. Really, the main considerations are who LeBron wants to play basketball with and whether he can handle living in that city day-to-day.
Interesting…
Is tonight’s game not on T.V?
they say the nightlife in Minneapolis is some of the best in the country too…just throwin that out there for the young fella.
and we all know Kahn and Taylor would do anything to get this guy. both guys have what it takes - kahn’s work ethic and Taylor’s massive checkbook. plus I am guessing LeBron woulnd’t mind playing with a coach who ‘gets it’ like Rambis does.
Hollinger might not be so crazy afterall…
jama - no TV according to the mainpage wolves article. should be on KFAN though.
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