What happened to Wednesday’s Wolves?: Bucks win 87-72
Posted on November 7th, 2009 – 1:29 AMBy Jerry Zgoda
Three steps forward, one step back?
Kurt Rambis contended he had seen a lot to like in the Wolves’ successive losses to Phoenix, the L.A. Clippers and Boston this week.
And then comes Friday’s game against the Bucks.
Leading by nine points in the first quarter, by five at halftime, the Wolves wilted in the third quarter when the Bucks turned up the defensive pressure and outscored them 31-14.
That matchup of rookie point guards — Jonny Flynn and Brandon Jennings — fairly fizzled while Andrew Bogut asserted himself with a 17-point, 10-rebound, 4-assist game on a night when the Bucks denied Al Jefferson at every turn and the Wolves’ triangle offense stalled, perhaps trying too hard to get him the ball.
Al made just three of 12 shots and scored eight points (had eight rebounds, too).
Granted, it has only been six games, but the more I see of Rambis’ system, if you look way down the road, doesn’t it seem like Kevin Love fits this offense and Al’s game really doesn’t?
Two other things about tonight:
* Oleksiy Pechrov only scored 22 fewer points than he did Wednesday against the Celtics: He went 1-for-6 for two points after his 24-point, 8-rebound game against KG.
* The 72 points were the Wolves’ fewest since they scored 70 against the Cavs at Target Center last December.
Well, that’s it from Target Center for tonight.
Gotta pack for a flight tomorrow to Portland, where the Wolves take their five-game losing streak on Sunday against the Trail Blazers.
That’s a homecoming for both Love and David Kahn, but neither will play.
59 Responses to "What happened to Wednesday’s Wolves?: Bucks win 87-72"
I didn’t see the game tonight, but I thought Glenn Taylor sucked and Kevin McHale ruined our chances tonight.
I thought about going, but then I realized that would be playing into the hands of Taylor’s evil plan. I’ll wait to go until the Wolves add the TV games they took away. Meanwhile, everyone else I know doesn’t give a sh!t about the Wolves.
[…] On the Wolves » Blog Archive » What happened to Wednesday’s Wolves?: Bucks win 87-72 blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/wolves/2009/11/07/what-happened-to-wednesdays-wolves-bucks-win-87-72 – view page – cached Kurt Rambis contended he had seen a lot to like in the Wolves’ successive losses to Phoenix, the L.A. Clippers and Boston this week. […]
I think we saw in spurts during the Phoenix and Clippers game, as well as the Boston game, that Al CAN fit into the triangle….if he sticks to it. The made the same mistake tonight he made against Cleavland and Shaq…tried to do his old 10 second grinding post up routine.
But between Jefferson and Love, it seems inevitable that one or both is going to be traded.
More concerning I think is we had nearly twice as many turnovers as assists, and once again no one posted high assist numbers. Or really, any assist numbers.
I’m glad Rambis is going to loosen up the offense as Flynn progresses. That reinforces my gut feeling the triangle is being used as much to teach teamwork and discipline as anything. But with the lack of scorers on our roster and Jonny’s sheer talent, we might to well to let him freelance a little more than we have, just to generate some easier scoring opportunities.
Great one night, terrible the next. Hallmark of a talented but inexperienced team.
I don’t think we will trade both (Al and Love), maybe but not within the same 1-2 years. Al will probably fetch the better deal, and if Love is here and Al is gone, Aldrich won’t be drafted here for sure, Al and Aldrich would maybe work but not Love and Aldrich. Turner would be nice and with a 2nd 1st rounder go for a project C and sign a good veteran.
Plus if we traded Al and took back a little less money in a contract (10% less) we would have more money for FA and getting a decent Center in FA too:
Flynn/Sessions
Turner/Brewer
Johnson/Gay then Gomes as backup
Love/Pecherov(after resign for minimum)
Free agent Center/Hollins
If we do trade Al, it HAS to be for a center. Jefferson isn’t ideal as a center, but he can hold it down respectably. Love plays with the center of gravity of a guy who’s 6′6″…he might be the same height as Jefferson, but I think anyone can see he “plays shorter” than Al.
I don’t know what you’re really going to get for Jefferson. You’re certainly not likely to get a center that we would be happier with. Out of all the teams we have played so far, I think the only quality bigs we could get for Jefferson would be Anderson Varejao or Kendrick Perkins. I don’t think Jefferson would be enough to get Brook Lopez, Amare Stoudamire, Chris Kamen, or Andrew Bogut (obviously Shaq and KG would not be desired). I am actually not sure Cleveland would trade Varejao for Jefferson. Considering what he does defensively, Varejao might be more valuable to Cleveland than Jefferson would be. The problem with trading Jefferson is that the purchaser will always have concerns about how Jefferson’s going to fit, and that’s going to drive his price down. So I think realistically if you trade Jefferson and want to acquire a post player in return, I think you’re going to be looking at a Varajao, Chandler, Noah type player, maybe an Andris Biedrins, maybe an Okafor. But I can’t guarantee any of those counterparties would make that trade. Point is, that the player you would get back would be as incomplete a player in some aspect as Jefferson is now. But maybe it’s worth it if you can find a good compliment to Love.
I’d explore trading Jefferson and Sessions to the Bulls for Noah, Hinrich and James Johnson.
Great, Jefferson and Love don’t fit into the system and long range plans. I thought those were the only two guys they were building around. Perhaps they can trade them and get a couple of 2013 or 2014 1st round picks (to go along with the 2014 1st round pick they will get in two year when they trade Ricky Rubio’s rights) and even more cap room to make a big offer to a 2010 free agent, who will turn it down because he doesn’t want to play for the worst team in the NBA.
And just when I was getting my hopes up and willing to be patient for a couple years as they built a winning team.
My prediction: The Wolves will be bad long enough that the lottery protection for Marko Jaric runs out, and the Wolves finally win the #1 overall pick the year they have to surrender it to the Clippers.
Of course that will be the year the next LeBron James enters the draft.
I think Kevin Love’s game could fit the offense. He was outstanding the very first preseason game of the year, and he only played in two or three games after that before the injury. The question is whether Kevin Love is quick enough and long enough to ever be an consistent and effective player at his position in all aspects of the game. Given the last half of his rookie season, I think he can get there, but he needs to pair with someone who is quick and can defend the rim.
I underestimated how much the Wolves would miss Love’s rebounding. It killed them again last night. Jefferson has not been adequate in that department, but that may be injury-related. He seems to miss that 30 pounds he lost.
I don’t think the Wolves will pull a knee-jerk trade this year of Jefferson or Love. I don’t think they would get fair value, and they need to see more games before they decide who on the team who will stay or go after this season.
Assuming Al gets back to the productivity he showed last year… Would Al plus Rubio’s rights and perhaps another player or pick be enough to land Chris Bosh?
haugenma
considering bosh is a free agent next year, I am not sure. probably not, as he would be a max player on the market.
last night just showed that this team needs size in the middle. Bogut was massive next to Al. this team needs a legit big-man who can defend the post for this team to have any chance at all against good teams, let alone a team like Milwaukee.
Good lord. There ought to be an IQ test to pass prior to posting.
This will never work with Al! We need to trade him! He’s not worth much! I’m a bonafide idiot!
OK, I just re-read Jerry’s post: “the more I see of Rambis’ system, if you look way down the road, doesn’t it seem like Kevin Love fits this offense and Al’s game really doesn’t?”
I think I had a little dyslexia and thought is said “it doesn’t seem like Kevin Love fits this offense” followed by Al Jefferson also doesn’t fit in.
Big difference between one of the two low-post players not being in the long-range plans and both.
I don’t have a problem with Jefferson not being in the long-range plans as long as they get good value in return for a young player of comprable talent (perhaps a SG/SF type player) who can play immediately.
But if they take another step back in talent for an asset in the future (like another 1st round pick), they will be bad long enough for the lottery protection to run out on the Marko Jaric trade.
And with their history of bad luck (if it truly is luck) in the lottery, losing a lottery pick for Jaric would be a more demoralizing kick in the groin than the Joe Smith fiasco.
MCHALE was building around Love and Jefferson. Kahn has made it clear he hasn’t found the guy he’d deem good enough to build around yet.
Considering the offense we’re running and the pace we’re trying to play at, Al is certainly not ideal. He can fit in, but not naturally. This isn’t his game. Love has an ideal skillset but is a step slow, and his smaller stature and lack of athleticism limits what he can do defensively.
Now Chris Bosh…he would be extremely ideal for us. He can score and rebound as well as Jefferson, has the same passing potential as Love, and can defend better than either of them. Throw in his natural quickness and athleticism, and you’ve got a guy who would look a lot like Pau Gasol in the triangle.
But, obviously, the question is at what cost?
The Wolves still need more games to get a feel for things. I will say that right now Jefferson does not seem ideal for any team that wants to move the ball. Can that change? A leopard doesn’t change its spots or something like that? I won’t put anything past trader Kahn if he decides to start making moves at any time.
Should the Wolves try to get Joe Alexander if the Bucks are willing to give him away? I don’t think his option was picked up, but how many of these Wolves will be here next year? I think that they will be trying to figure out that question for most of the year. Joe needs some playing time to improve, and that was supposed to be what this year was about for the Wolves.
As a side note, some players are in the right place at the right time and I am happy for players like Bobby Brown, Chase Budinger, and Shelden Williams for showing some signs of life.
Joe Alexander would be Gerald Green all over again. He has no basketball IQ.
I do agree that Love fits the triangle better than Jefferson, his passing skills and court vision are way above Jeffersons.
Theres no need to rush and trade Al right now, let him improve his game a bit if thats the direction the franchise needs to go. The Wolves would also need to lock Love up before trading Al.
A SG is what this team needs more than anything for the triangle to blossom, During the Bulls years of dominance, the center was an average player, he didn’t need to be a superstar type of player, but the SG did.
Wade would never come here but thats the type of player the Wolves need to make this work.
Terrance Williams(Rookie)of the Nets would have been a perfect SF for the Triangle offense and thier center, who rarely plays, Shawn Williams would be a nice center for the system, but has a history of issues and may not be worth the time. Its sad because the guy has a lot of talent and can block a ton of shots.
Looking through the thread for signs of intelligent life….none.
This team is going nowhere right now. The best that Rambis can say is that the team plays well in spurts. The season is simply an extended training camp.
Draft John Wall, he is the next Lebron James, except a PG, maybe he can play with Flynn, either way he had 27 in his exhibition debut for Kentucky!
Joe Alexander is still out like 8-12 weeks anyway.
I won’t deny that Joe Alexander might be a Gerald Green, but I am always willing to take a chance on a young guy that someone saw something in at one point. I am not saying that he can be a savior, but he might be serviceable.
This year the Wolves should be throwing things against the wall to see if anything sticks. Like I mentioned, many of the current players won’t be here next year anyway as they look toward the draft and free agency.
I was at the game last night. Wolves got dominated on the boards and points in the paint. Love would have helped a lot, but there were also probably less than five good perimeter looks for the Wolves in the halfcourt set.
First order of business is for Al to get back to being Al, whether he’s going to be here or somewhere else. He’s learning to play with a significantly smaller frame, and he’s obviously not able to get much explosion to get up in the air.
Yes, much time was spent last night standing around and watching Al flounder. And once the ball came in to Al, it didn’t come back out. That’s fine if he’s shooting 50%.
Gotta remember, they’re missing their best rebounder, Al’s not healthy, they have two new PG’s, and a new system overall. That’s a whole lot of change and some significant handicaps. There will be nights like this…
“If you keep on doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep on getting what you always got.”
This franchise has been stuck in the re-building phase for at least the past five years. Poor draft choices and trades have kept the Wolves dysfunctional. We (the fans) are suppose to keep buying the “give us three more years and we will be competitive” line. Give me a break. I have no patience left for that franchise. The stink of the McHale era is still there. The moment he fired his ‘friend’ Flip Saunders this club went into a tailspin and hasn’t recovered since then.
Good Luck. Good-bye. I will start cheering for the local club here, the original Minnesota team, the Lakers.
I’ve heard Joe Alexander being interviewed on the radio and the guy sounds like a total jerk. Apparently he can jump out of the gym but he doesn’t understand the pro game and hasn’t been willing to accept coaching. Doesn’t sound like a good player for a new coach to deal with.
I’ve never felt this dumb reading posts on this blog…
I was at the game last night. It was like deja vu with the Randy Wittman era of the team giving no effort and losing at home to a bad team by 15-20 points. Where is the progress for this team ? Can any coach really make his players give effort if 4 of the 5 players on the court are lethargic and uninspired ? They refuse to rebound, play hard defense, or to move the ball on offense. I think that Taylor should give out refunds and apologies to anyone and everyone that attended that game. If we can’t beat teams like the Clippers and Bucks, then 10-15 wins is realistic.
On the positive side, the Wolves somehow picked a great game to not be televised. If people had watched that game on TV, they would be completely turned off from watching this team for a long time.
Well, we can take solace in one thing. We didn’t lose to Milwaukee as bad as the Knicks are about to.
I think we should trade Jefferson and Rubio to a team that wants to rebuild. We should have taken the Lakers deal for KG. Bynum, Odom (who we could have traded), Farmar and Marc Gasol. That would have been a good deal. We could have had something like:
Bynum/Gasol
Odom/Love
Brewer/rookie
Pavlovic/Ellington
Flynn/Farmar
I bet Kahn is waiting for Al to get healthy and see which teams are going to be bad enough to rebuild and then he will start making some calls.
C-Note
was that really available? that has to be the worst decision of McHale’s history (and that’s saying something) to pass on something like that in place of the Boston deal. a bunch of role players, 2 first rounders (including the one that was ours in the first place) and Al. instead that deal gives us two beasts at the 4/5 (Bynum, Gasol), a solid scorer in Odum and a decent guard in Farmar…
so glad that guy is gone..
I am a big Laker fan too and the deal was Bynum, Odom and Farmar to make the salaries match(the Lakers might have tried to put someone like Vujacic instead of Farmar) and that years 1st rounder and 2nd rounder. The 2nd rounder turned into Marc Gasol, and the first rounder (19th overall) was Javaris Crittenton but we probably would have picked someone else because we had Foye and then Farmar and wouldn’t have drafted another PG. So who knows who that 1st rounder could have been Deaquan Cook, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Brooks, Aaron Aflollo, Carl Landry and a few other decent guys who were drafted after Crittenton.
Remember at the time, Marc Gasol was a virtual unknown so the Wolves probably wouldn’t have even had him on their radar like the Lakers did.
They almost traded Bynum and role player for Kidd, they would have added Odom to get KG (and throw in player for contract reasons)
+ McHale hated the Lakers and I’m sure he still does and him being a former Celtic probably had something to do with it.
Bynum can never stay healthy though, and the more Odom is asked to do, the less he actually does. Neither of them would have flourished here on a rebuilding squad.
Tyreke Evans is killing the Jazz right now. I would have loved to have paired him with Flynn in our backcourt.
Bynum would be nice along side of Love and Odom would have been great trade bait to a team that needed some help (Cavs, Suns, and maybe Pistons or Spurs and Celtics if they didn’t get KG)
I wanted Evans more than anyone in the draft outside of Griffin. Evans and Flynn or Evans and Jennings would have been sweet.
He is playing so well because they moved him to the SG spot, where he should be, now that Martin is out. Beno and Sergio Rodriguez have been playing beside him tonight.
Nope, still no signs of intelligent life on the thread…just “i wish,” “i want,” McHale this, McHale that, etc. etc.
Ok people, Pau is not a good defender he is taller than Al but basically the same type player. He passes a little better but I think Al would pass better with Kobe on the team too. As for Kaman, Bogut, Chandler, Noah and Biedrins I wouldn’t trade Al for any of them unless they gave something more. All of those guys have way less talent than Al. As for Amare you get a perimeter player for an inside scorer bad deal.
Let’s look at the successful Triangle offenses you have to have a great wing player. Jordan or Kobe or the like. They ran the triangle with Pippen and it died.
So to say Al or Love don’t fit is ridiculous. Shaq, Malone, Cartwright, Rodman all played in the Triangle and by the time Rodman played he was not a good defender anymore, GREAT rebounder but no longer quick enough on D. None of those others except Malone was a great defender. No Shaq has never been a great post defender; good shoot blocker and help defender, yes.
Shaq and Malone would post up a lot. Even Horace Grant when there was a miss match would post up. AND if I recall the best and most consistant offense that the Bulls had was Jordan POSTING UP. So let’s not kid ourselfs a post player can play in the Triangle.
Now whatever offense Rambis is playing it is right now not the Triangle, but if your 3 best players can’t play in it you might want to change your offense.
Kahn wants to run you can run with slow bigs, 1986 Celtics ran off made baskets. They had Parish, Mchale, Bird and Walton not exactly the fleet of foot. 87 Lakers had Kareem and AC Green two slow big guys (yes they had Worthy who was fast). And Magic wasn’t exactly a speed demon, but they moved the ball with the pass.
So by extention Al or Love should be able to rebound the ball outlet to Flynn, Ellington or Brewer and the break begins. If no fast break go into your Triangle (which is a motion offense)half court offense. Al and Love should be just fine in that system. If Rambis can’t make that happen this year get rid of him. Period. You don’t mess around on this with Al healthy by mid season, Love back at full strength before Christmas and Flynn half a season in you have enough talent to show the fans you can win against the also rans (Warriors, Clips, Bobcat, OKC, Memphis, Bucks, Sac, and the like) If Rambis does get them going by mid season, he should be gone at the end of the year. He is starting to sound too much like Wittman.
Rambis = 4yrs. He’s not going anywhere!!!
Al, Flynn, and Love could play in the triangle, but do they want to? Are they going to buy in. Flynn eventually will, I think, but I’m not sure about Love. And I don’t think Al wants anything to do with moving the ball on offense, unless its moving to him.
They ran it with Pippen and it died ? Get it straight…Kobe aint no Pippen.
and Brewers not Jordan….there going to need shooters for the triangle to work :-}
our one win is against a winless team (the Nets, who just lost to Boston). not a good sign.
The Nets are not a bad team, they have more upside players at this time than the t-wolves….I luv RDR (Chris Douglas-Roberts)he was a 2nd round pick who they worked with and now their investment is paying off….. I’d take him over Brewer in a second
I’d also take Terrence Williams of the Nets over Brewer…..
Swan Dizzle I was saying you need to have a top 3 player at the 2-3 for the Triangle to work. So we are on the same page there. I don’t see a top 3 on our team. Thus the Triangle is not going to work to well.
Bryan the Triangle was setup so you did not need a good center. In the 80s and early 90s there were a lot of good 5s. Chicago didn’t have one so they went with a perimeter offense (Triangle). Their Centers were the ancient Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue and Luc Longley in otherwords big men who were worse than anyone the Wolves have now. So you don’t need a center.
In addition the league has way fewer good centers than ever before. The Wolves are not getting schooled because they have no bigs; they are getting beat because they can’t shoot. Which by the way is the same problem we had last year. When Al kicked it out (which he did enough to keep the other team honest)the guys didn’t usually make the shot. On this team who is Al going to kick out to?
Also let’s look at the PG in the triangle. Paxton, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr and Derek Fisher (one year of the Glove but they didn’t win), good shooters but no one you put in the top 10 PGs in the league.
So you draft a pick and roll PG, when the Triangle requires shooters. This tells me Rambis will either need to change his plan, get lucky in the draft (good luck with that with the Wolves) or most likely get fired for sticking with a system that doesn’t fit the players on his team.
Maybe Rambis should call his old boss who is a better coach than the Zen master, and ask him how to win with different personel. Yes, call Pat Riley who, won with Showtime in LA, should have won with Grind it out in NY and then won with a Hybrid in Miami. You fit your style to your players. You can run a Triangle offense with this team, but it will have to be a modified Triangle. Right now Al is the best player on this team, he is your Kobe so the offense should run through him. He will get doubled and tripled in games, so do this in practice every day until he starts hitting the right guy with the pass. Then suddenly he works just great in the Triangle.
so what you’re saying is we need a jordan and pippen type for this offense to work?
Or Kobe/Shaq… that shouldn’t be too hard to find, lol.
Rambis isn’t going to be able to run the exact same type of triangle that Phil runs. Maybe a variation but he is going to have to realize that we won’t be having a dominate player to create on his own when the shot clock goes under 8 seconds left like Jordan and Kobe can do to bail the team out.
edkroeten - check the line between Big Al and Andrew Bogut in the last game.
The triangle is set up so you don’t need a great center, true, but it’s also set up to accomodate one if you have one.
And no matter what system you run, you still need a center to play defense. Again, that’s why if we trade Al, it has to be for a real center…leaving Kevin Love by himself to try and defend players like Duncan, Yao, Amare, Gasol, Dwight Howard, etc will only get us beat. Al Jefferson can barely defend those guys as it is.
medschool no I was saying you need to work with what you have.
Bryan Al is out of shape right now one game stats don’t mean much. Al’s career #s are just fine.
Also Al schooled Yao and Amare last year. And played Duncan and Gasol even. So he got beat up by Howard a guy who beats just about everyone. Get real.
I’m not saying some height would be nice but we have way more important issues than center. Like no shooters.
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