Making history vs. Warriors: 146-105 loss is seventh straight
Posted on November 10th, 2009 – 4:47 AMBy Jerry Zgoda
OK, it’s late, even here in California tonight, but does that song Adam Sandler’s character sang in The Wedding Singer — the one after he had listened to The Cure too much — resonate with anyone else who watched the Wolves’ historic loss at Golden State?
That 146-105 loss tied franchise records for most points allowed — the Warriors had 74 by halftime, 111 by the end of three quarters — and largest margin of defeat.
The only other time the Wolves surrendered 146 points was April 1, 1994 (no April’s Fools joke) right there at Golden State as well. New Wolves assistant coach Darrick Martin was a rookie on that team that included J.R. Rider, Christian Laettner, Doug West, Sean Rooks, Winston Garland and too many other famous players to mention.
The only other time a Wolves team lost by 41 points was a March 1996 game at Miami, which was a 113-72 winner that night late in Kevin Garnett’s rookie season.
The Wolves committed 28 turnovers to 12 by the Warriors, who, btw, had only beaten Memphis in their first five games.
They gave up 66 points in the paint and trailed by as many 45 points in the fourth quarter.
The bare facts speak for themselves, so I’ll let what Kurt Rambis and a couple players in the locker room said afterward carry tonight’s posting for me.
Ryan Gomes: “I don’t think any of us have been beat this bad in any of our days of playing basketball. So it’s got to become personal. You have to do something about this individually and challenge ourselves individually, then the team ultimately will become better. We cannot let this happen again.”
This is what he said when someone asked how they put this one behind them: “Get on the plane and go back to Minnesota. Play Portland (Wednesday).”
Al Jefferson: “It’s an embarrassment. We just got embarrassed.”
I asked him if the players’ body language, particularly in the second half, said more than those 28 turnovers or point in the paint number ever could. He said, “Pretty much out of reach by then. We, thank God, tried to play hard for the most part throughout the whole game but every little mistake we made they took advantage of.”
Rambis on the big picture: “This is not something that’s not going to turn around in the first 10 games. We still don’t know who we are as a ballgame until Al Jefferson is back 100 percent, until Kevin Love is back, until we have an idea of a nice starting unit and a set rotation where guys can feel comfortable. Until then, we’ll probably continue to play up and down and be inconsistent.”
Rambis on the game: “They lost their fight. I don’t feel our guys competed in an aggressive manner, a nasty manner that they have to compete with. That’s one of the areas we have to significantly improve upon as a ballclub. They haven’t developed that.”
Rambis when I told him the loss tied franchise records for points allowed and margin of defeat: “Thank you for bringing that up. That’s excellent that you spent that time during the ball game to assess that.”
That’s all from Oakland/San Francisco tonight. The Wolves fly home in the morning and play Portland Wednesday night. Doesn’t this seem just like last season, when the Wolves eked out an opening-night victory over Sacramento and then lost eight consecutive games?
181 Responses to "Making history vs. Warriors: 146-105 loss is seventh straight"
The worst part about this game was 99% of it was our own fault. That’s what really gets me about this one. Seemingly every single offensive possession was a turnover. Seemingly every single defensive possession was a wide open three or an And-1.
We gave up 47 points off turnovers. That’s basically the difference in the score. 10 Turnovers leading to just 15 points? We probably win this one.
We scored 101 points. That’s a lot for an NBA game. Hopefully people will realize now that, while we’re imbalanced on offense, it’s out DEFENSE that is the real problem that needs to be addressed. This goes way beyond just waiting for Kevin Love to get back.
Also, I want to bring up something I noticed with Brewer. He is an island out there defensively. Get the guy some help. All night he was running around like crazy, trying to cover two guys because no one was rotating to open shooters. And whenever he forced a guy left or right as he took the ball into the paint, none of our bigs stepped up to cut off driving lanes.
I clearly remember a play where Corey forced Monta Ellis baseline on a drive, almost behind the backboard, and Ellis got a free layup anyway because Al couldn’t be bothered to take an extra step to his left. One step to the left and Monta has to jump out of bounds to avoid a charge. That’s the kind of stuff that breaks a team defensively.
Canis Hoops feels that this was the game that Corey really established himself as a legit NBA player, something True Hoop’s Henry Abbott said after the Portland game. But all his defensive efforts are being wasted because the rest of the team is clueless defensively and doesn’t show any effort.
[…] On the Wolves » Blog Archive » Making history vs. Warriors: 146-105 loss is seventh straight blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/wolves/2009/11/10/making-history-vs-warriors-146-105-loss-is-seventh-straight – view page – cached OK, it’s late, even here in California tonight, but does that song Adam Sandler’s character sang in The Wedding Singer — the one after he had listened to The Cure too much — resonate with… Read moreOK, it’s late, even here in California tonight, but does that song Adam Sandler’s character sang in The Wedding Singer — the one after he had listened to The Cure too much — resonate with anyone else who watched the Wolves’ historic loss at Golden State? Read less […]
ALSO our inability to get to the free throw line against the Warriors, a team just as defensively challenged as us and missing their best post player, is, in a word, depressing.
We’re not a good jump shooting team, and Al isn’t 100%. So to generate offense, we have to, HAVE to get to the free throw line.
I mean even the Kings beat the Warriors, and without Kevin Martin at that. How? They drew 28 fouls and went to the line for 38 attempts.
Us? 19 fouls, 20 attempts. That’s not enough free throws for a team that’s going to struggle to shoot 45% most nights.
For better or worse, the reckoning in the short term for letting Foye, Miller, Smith, and Telfair go for nothing has arrived. While they were only two marginal starters and two solid bench players, they have not been replaced as of yet. I’ve never seen a team completely lose its way starting during the second quarter of the Bucks game last Friday and steadily decline into Wednesday’s game. This is a team that a week ago had the Celtics down to the wire.
Well, this is Kahn’s grand strategy. He’s made it very clear that this season doesn’t matter at all. I have disliked that strategy because it poisons the players and the fans, no matter what spin you can put on it. I’m still waiting for my Ricky Rubio autographed ball I was promised when I signed up for seasoon tickets this year.
worse.than.mchale
I guess I’m not sorry I missed watching the game….. It sounds awful,,,why did Rambis play Don Nelsons game and decided to go small?
I don’t mind the decision to go small as much as I don’t understand the decision to start Ellington. Wouldn’t this have been the perfect game to try out a Flynn/Sessions backcourt? They can’t play together all that often but last night was one of the games they could have?
This bunch of lazy dirtbags could have an NBA exemption that allowed them to play seven players at a time and still get blown out.
Kahn…you are starting to look like you had absolutley no clue how to assemble a roster.
Uh-oh. Sounds like Rambis is getting testy already: “Thank you for bringing that up. That’s excellent that you spent that time during the ball game to assess that.”
When coaches start sniping at reporters for doing their jobs, things start to get ugly in a hurry.
Rambis better start “thickening his skin” if he wants to make it through that fat four year contract he signed.
Terrible effort the last 3 games. I said no defensive principles the 1st game I saw this year. They don’t help and recover AT ALL. This is as bad as team can play on defense. Kool-aid gang (Mad Dan, Foo) was the MASTER PLAN by NBG (Kahn) to hire a guy with no defensive principles (Rambis) over pay Sessions and Hollins as free agents, draft Rubio, who can’t start in the Spanish league and just down right play embarrassing ball? Enlighten us peons please.
You guys are nuts…that game was incredible. First quarter 33-29 ?! That was so much freakin fun to watch. One team shooting .447 and the other .571 ? That was pure entertainment !
As a Wolves fan I would have given my TV a karate kick if it wasn’t so fun to watch.
Yeah Brewer is guarding 1/3 of the court…its fun to watch. Too bad no one else was. Didn’t matter where he was…he was guarding 2 people almost all night and closed gaps on extra passes exceptionally….they just didn’t miss.
so it looks like we need to take roll… there may be only 10 of us left by the end of this season…
Bryan, Mike B., Marty Mcfly, sportsjunkie, jama, pauly, lou, logical thinker, Swan Dizzle, and myself.
I enjoy the fact that Foo and I get to be charter members of the Kool-Aid gang. It’s really special to be singled (doubled?) out to have my views mischaracterized by a myopic troll.
But there’s no doubt that the Wolves have been complete crap over the last few games. Things can get better when Love comes back and Al gets completely healthy, but still, there’s no excuse for what happened last night. I hope Rambis can figure out how to use the players he has — I don’t think they’ll learn much about the triangle offense or anything else during losses like this.
The rats have abandoned ship, haugenma. I found no excitement in the Warriors driving uncontested to hoop for 2 or throwing it out to a guy who could’ve had a beer before he shot it. That effort on D was unacceptable. Rambis should be mad at himself for allowing that.
Glad to hear from you Mad Dan. Don’t back off your statements now, stand tall and give us the MASTER PLAN. I haven’t back slid one bit on how I felt and feel about direction of team. You defended every move last summer and said we’ll see how it works out. I remember the Sessions signing and Hollins as steals according to you. Plant your feet and make a stand…. You might enjoy it.
Poor coaching. I’m not throwing Rambis out the window or anything but our strategy was flawed from the beginning. We should have ground that game to a halt from the beginning. Al Jefferson should have touched the ball every single possession early on. GS has no one who can defend him. We should have disrupted their fast break rhythm but instead they tried to match it with the likes of Sasha Pavlovic, Corey Brewer and Wayne Ellington. Not good.
There’s just not much you can say about these last few games. Disappointing effort all around. I’m getting rather sick of Al Jefferson pontificating about effort and then not doing it himself. I realize the guy isn’t 100% physically, but a lot of his problems at the defensive end are effort- and playing in the scheme-related. It’s too easy for Al, because even if he doesn’t put in the effort at one end, the Wolves have such a need for his skills at the other end that they can’t afford to sit him down.
Other than Brewer, the situation at the 2/3 has pretty much been as bad as expected.
Jonny Flynn is playing like a rookie point guard. With the trouble at the 2, I still assert that we need to see Flynn and Sessions together more.
That’s the thing, Eeyore, you never criticize what I actually wrote — you just make stuff up and attack that. So I won’t “enlighten” you because you’ve demonstrated an inability to learn and/or play nicely with others.
But as far as where I stand: I still think Kahn made good moves last summer; I still think we’re well positioned for the future; I still think we won’t be very good this year (but I’m hoping for 20 wins, and not the 10 we’re on pace for); and I’m still not sure about Rambis and his system.
Mad Dan, what good moves do you agree with from last summer ?
Drafting Rubio; drafting Flynn; drafting Ellington; getting Charlotte’s first rounder for our #18; signing Sessions; signing Hollins.
We’ve had debates about these moves more times than I’d care to recall, so I won’t bother defending them again. I don’t think we’ve learned enough about any of the players involved in those moves to change my mind.
Is anyone an Insider? ESPN just posted “future power rankings” and I’d be curious to know where the Wolves stand.
Fair enough Mad Dan, when it’s proven that these moves were smoke and mirrors will you at the least admit it. If Ellington looks 6-5 and plays really well and defends anybody just a wee bit, I’ll be the first to say I was wrong.
How can you say that he drafted well? He had four selections in the first round and couldn’t find anyone over 6′3. I like the thought of blowing up the roster, but you still have to be competative. Wilkens, Pav, Pech, Hollins, that’s the best you can up with instead of what we had. You would’nt have had any problems losing with what you had if that is what you wanted to do. At least a team that had been together for a couple of years would have had some accountability towards each other. This group obviously couldn’t care less how they appear to the rest of the world.
If the Wolves still stink in January 2011, I’ll join the fire Kahn bandwagon. I don’t think the roster pieces will be in place before next season, and then they’ll need time to figure each other out. Like it or not, this is a transitional year.
I might have a shorter leash for Rambis — which I admit might not be fair to him.
Last time I checked Rambis had zero to do with the construction of the current roster or the destruction of the previous roster.
I do hope that Taylor has learned one valuable lesson from this experiment…you never ever trade your difference makers.
Also with this current roster the only option is trying to win Flynn a scoring title. Let him be a shoot first, shoot second, and shoot third option.
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Agree on Flynn being a scoring option. He’s played his whole career being a scoring, attacking guard how can you ask him to change that? That’s what made him special. Now we ask him to enter ball and go space up for a catch and shoot 20 footer, the worse part of his game. Sessions is the same. That was why I didn’t like the signing of Sessions too much like Flynn. NBG Kahn doesn’t know how to assemble a roster.
Bryan, I’m having a bit of trouble with your logic.
“Seemingly every single offensive possession was a turnover.”
“ALSO our inability to get to the free throw line against the Warriors, a team just as defensively challenged as us and missing their best post player, is, in a word, depressing.”
“We’re not a good jump shooting team, and Al isn’t 100%”
but…”We scored 101 points. That’s a lot for an NBA game. Hopefully people will realize now that, while we’re imbalanced on offense, it’s out DEFENSE that is the real problem that needs to be addressed”
How exactly is the offense any better than the defense?
Pauly — who are these “difference makers” that we traded?
once Rambis gets players on which he has some say - lets face it, Kahn stuck him with what he has, and I have a good feeling that Kahn will use Rambis’ input on future acquisitions - it will be better to evaluate this offense then. its an offense that has won championships in the past. I think right now the team is stuck in learning mode, and has been giving a lack of effort defensively (short of Brewer and Flynn) for whatever reason.
This team needs a dominent SG to be sucessfull in the Triangle, Brewer isn’t it, Ellington isn’t it, the team doesn’t have one. That should be the focus of a trade or the first off-season move. Last night was embarassing but it still has some solid building blocks.
The team has some solid building blocks.
The T-wolves building blocks are Flynn and Jefferson or KLove and the rest are role players or bait…..
Kevin Garnett and Brandon Roy.
I don’t like to keep bringing them up..Swan always gets angry.
After the last few games it would be hard to convince the most ardent backers of this team that there is a plan in place, or building blocks. Mostly LEGGO’s not concrete.
100% or not, Al is exhibiting the same mentality on defense as I’ve always seen from him. He just hasn’t shown that he understands how to play team defense and rotate to help.
If he’s the ‘leader’ of the team, then they’re in trouble. There’s no denying Al’s scoring and rebounding skills, but I still don’t think he’s a true number one option, or a franchise cornerstone to build a team around. He’s a great 2nd or 3rd piece, but until he shows a higher level of play on both ends of the floor, I just can’t agree he’s the guy to build around.
IF he continues to show improvement in passing and recognizing the defense being played against him, and showing greater understanding and effort in his own defensive abilities, then he’s a cornerstone. Until then, he’s just an important piece.
He showed all of those attributes the other night when he was playing against his buddies from Boston. That is the telling part about him. It is not the injury, it is pure effort.
Everyone complaining about the wolves needs to settle down! They are EIGHT games into the season! Complaining about Ellington? He is a rookie, yes he made some mistakes, but thats why we got him at the 28th pick! This team is supposed to be terrible this year. They dont have any other defenders other than Brewer, you can’t expect Jefferson to turn into a defensive stud, we all know he sucks at defense, so stop complaining about it! He may need to work on it, but it takes TEAM defense to win not just one or two players. I don’t disagree with a move Kahn has made yet! Foye was going to want more money than he deserved, Miller sucked, and Rubio should be put in a trade to get some young PROVEN talent! Telfair sucked, and Smith was an undersized PF, everyone complains about Al being an undersized center, but yet some of you miss Smith? sure he had his moments, but those players would have taken away from our cap room next year. I think Kahn will trade for some young talent, rather than sign a FA. What’s wrong with Sessions? His contract isnt that bad, and maybe he gets traded? Hollins, like Jerry says, lot of potential, 3yrs 7mil is nothing! Settle down and if they are still bad in 2 years then Kahn can go, but otherwise stop complaining!
jroth7…..that attitude is just what gets a franchise in the situation this on is right now. YOU CAN NEVER ACCEPT LOSING.
I will always say this franchise is cursed since the third year because it fired Muss for not accepting losing.
Go ahead a flame me for that but I have seen the same thing in the business world.
very true, but i dont expect them to trade away any young players for some proven talent just to win games. They need more time to evaluate what they have talent-wise before they trade for a proven player or two. Im not saying they have a lot of talent, but 8 games is way to fast to judge!
jroth… how do you know how much Foye would’ve wanted? Rubio isn’t starting for his Euro team and is averaging 6pts 5 ast …. He’s in a “show me” year in Barcelona, which isn’t close to NBA level. If he does this all year what value will he have next year? Lot’s of ifs and maybes in Wolves plan. As far as team defense…. I agree 100% it’s about teammates working and covering for each other. That falls squarely on Rambis and his staff. It’s their job to get the guys to defend and work. The last 3 games it hasn’t been even close to a team hustling.
Last night was the Wolves best audition yet or reassignment to the D-League. Make it so.
Rubio is listed as a starter for all of Barcelona’s Euroleague games thus far.
LT — how much would you have been wiling to pay Randy Foye? Years and $, please?
I never said I knew how much Foye wanted, but it would probably be more than we were willing to give him, since he never really proved anything here, just my guess. And not saying Rubio is Jennings, but Jennings barely played last year and look at him now. I personally think in the future Rubio has more potential in a trade then Foye, and Foye is already 26, some people were complaining about Jefferson being too old by the time we are supposed to be good, Foye is 2 years older. But i agree a lot of if’s and maybe’s but personally I like the potential they have, if they ever live up to it is another thing.
The other thing I would point out about Rubio is this: Dirk Nowitski was drafted out of the German Second League. Tony Parker never played in a Euroleague game. Yet, both came in and were competent contributors as rookies. Ricky Rubio is far more accomplished in Europe than either of those two. Does that mean that Rubio will be as good as Parker and Nowitski? No. But it also is an indication that Rubio is likely very well prepared to come to the NBA and contribute from Day 1, whenever that is.
From my comment at 2:09…
Foye would not have as much trade value as Rubio, two years from now Foye 28, Rubio 21…lot more value for a young PG than a 28 year old who will probably never live up to the hype. And even if Foye plays well in Washington, that doesn’t mean he would have played well here.
An SI survey of NBA GM’s ranked Rubio as the best player not in the NBA. But I guess Eeyore will say that only the dumb ones voted for him.
I think you had to take Rubio since he went down to 5. Jennings did nothing oversea’s and is off to a good start in his career. I don’t like the losing either but it is under 10 games in to the year.
Are some of you so concerned about winning this year that you are willing to risk the chance of us getting out of the bottom, and if so I’m sure the 76er’s would trade us Dalambert and his shot blocking for any of our guys.
yes because LT is an elite Euroleague scout. they should all listen to him.
I would’ve given Foye a little more than Sessions. 21M for 4. That’s about mid-level money or just south of it. True about Dirk and Parker, my only concern is Dirk was 7 ft with a soft touch and Parker was outta this world quick don’t see the unique physical trait with Rubio. I know he didn’t start 2 Euro games because I saw them play Cibona live on NBATV and the announcers said he came off bench game before also. Rubio played 6 minutes in 1st half and mop up duty in 2nd as Barcelona blew them out. Was not too impressed by what I saw. Only 1 game though.
I have that terrible problem that I believe my eyes and not what I read. Like I told you Mad Dan Ellington is not 6-5 don’t care what anybody says. Jim Pete must believe his eyes also because he said he liked Wayne just too small for 2 man.
“pauly says:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Kevin Garnett and Brandon Roy.
I don’t like to keep bringing them up..Swan always gets angry.
After the last few games it would be hard to convince the most ardent backers of this team that there is a plan in place, or building blocks. Mostly LEGGO’s not concrete.”
Alright the dumb part of this post is thinking that these lego’s or building blocks wouldn’t be successful when an elite player is brought in. Thats just naive thinking…and guess what people…that guy isn’t coming here this year unless its at the trading deadline.
So if you want to continue to claim how these players are nothing then by all means go ahead and sound foolish. But great players make role players better. So its not unreasonable to think that the plan of having young talent (whether you think they are role players, second fiddles or whatever) to surround a star is the right way to go.
But that just brings us back to the question whether or not stars want to come here or Kahn can convince one or more to come…
If the Wolves still look this bad after Kevin Love returns, then somethings got to give. It’s very hard to tell what’s going on with this team while they’re missing one of their starters.
Give me 10 games with Jefferson, Love, Gomes, Brewer and Flynn as the starting line-up (or whatever combination you like that includes Jefferson, Love and Flynn) and then let’s see how bad they look.
I commented a few posts ago that if the triangle offense is going to work with the players on the roster, then the roles within the triangle need to be changed to fit.
LT - You’d give Foye (a man who can only go right) more money than Sessions ?
Hahaha. Nice. I need a chuckle after reading some of these posts.
Yes I would give him more money than Sessions. He’s a combo guy that got you over 16pts over 4 ast a game last year. As of now Sessions is averaging 5.8 pts with 19 ast and 15 to’s. That’s why Bucks offered him 3.2 for 2 years.
Yeah but Foye was horrible. Completely and utterly atrocious on D. Looked lost…looked like Paul Walker in the middle of a single shot monologue over 10 words…all the time.
Sessions is superior to Foye in D.
And enough of this combo guard hogwash. Combo guard usually means “short shooting guard.”
Foye is not a point guard…and never has or will be.
not to mention that 16 points was usually on at least 16 shots…
and most of his assists were just dumping it into Al and him converting.
LT
Over the last three months of last season Sessions averaged 15 points 8 assists and 4.5 rebounds per game with less turnovers than Foye. Just saying Sessions stats were actually better than Foye’s once Sessions started for the Bucks.
Who cares about Foye’s offense…if people are going to ridicule Jefferson’s D while being a superior offensive player than any pro-Foye chat needs to end immediately. He was a matador.
If the defense is so bad why don’t the Wolves try playing some zone defense? I am shocked by how few teams even occasionally play zones in the NBA. The number one thing that people say the NBA is lacking(other than defense) is knock down shooters. Doesn’t a zone defense bring that to more of the forefront? I don’t think I would play a lot of zone against the Warriors because they are a very good shooting 3point team but why not try a zone against the Clippers or the Bucks or the Blazers? They are all average at best 3pt shooting teams.
Zone’s need a quick roaming big with great communication skills. That should be Hollins and something they work with him on.
One thing to consider… Rambis is also a rookie… He is learning just like the rest of his rookie players.
Rambis is not a rookie.
Swan….was out walking the dog….which players that are concrete do you think will turn into great role players when our superstar shows up?
Pech shows some shooting skill and then goes to the bench for the next game.
Jefferson will not subjucate himself to anyone.
Gomes is to slow to play any position.
Brewer may be OK in the long run but then the superstar better be Lebron.
pauly
no the next game he went 1 for 6, the following he scores 4 points. THEN he went to the bench…
My point is that he still has the best, or second best, behind Flynn, looking shot on the squad.
Did anyone see that Evan Turner had a triple double in Ohio States win last night?
14 pts 17 reb 10 ast.
OSU plays UNC next week at Madison Square Garden for those that would like to see why Turner is projected as a top 10 pick. Plus it will be nice to see him go up against some athletic competion from UNC.
Punto would be at CF if needed; DY had played CF ages ago, but that won’t happen with Gardy…
Tolbert can play some OF as well.
medschoolmatt
I completely disagree. Brewer would be a much better Center Fielder!
lol wow i did it again; no more double blog openings…
thanks jama 
taking a break from studying and I needed a good laugh.
Who did OSU play when Turner got the trip doub ?
Alcorn State. Obviously not a powerhouse but a triple double is still impressive. His length and shooting would be a great addition depending on where the Wolves end up drafting.
An extremely reactionary, sky-is-falling, angry rant about the Wolves pathetic three-game stretch:
the way they are playing now, they are for sure top 5; that might be a stretch for Turner. but say they improve a bit with Love’s return and maybe Al improves…they could get closer to 8, 9, or 10 which is right where Turner should get drafted at this piont.
I will be suprised if Turner isn’t a top 6 pick in the next draft and that could go higher depending on who drafts where and player movement.
The reason is most of the players projected to get drafted in the top 5 are nothing but potential that have proven very little so far. Guys like Favors, Davis, and Motiejunas really haven’t proven much but have a lot of potential. Plus I think Turner is going to have a huge year and a go to scoring wing player will get picked ahead of project big men or guys with lower ceilings like Aldrich.
Wolves are caught in a death spiral…pull up, pull up, before it is too late!
Staying up till midnight to watch all of that game was a very special moment in my life. Really brought some clarity of purpose to my otherwise empty existence.
What can you say? Warriors ran them out of the gym and the Wolves rolled over to an imploding team. But sorry, Logical or McFly, it doesn’t really change the overall picture. This is year one of a rebuilding plan and the Wolves’ already talent-deficient roster is even moreso while Al is hobbling and Love is out. Whether they lose by a bucket to Boston or, say, twenty buckets to Golden State, those facts don’t change.
I’m not even that discouraged, really; they need a gut/pride check, better early than late. And I thought Al looked a little more spry with his offensive moves, as well.
Nowhere to go but up, right?
For those that are wondering how long the rebuilding will take I have an answer. It will take as long as it takes for the Wolves to draft a team difference maker. They need a CP3 or a Brandon Roy, Durant, D Williams, or if they are really lucky a Wade, LeBron, or Kobe. Until they draft a player of that quality that can win games on their own they will never compete. A team of above average role players (see Baby Bulls) will never get over the hill.
Unfortunately they already had Roy and traded him.
besides John Wall, who is a ‘difference maker’ in the next draft?
I got news for you guys. If you haven’t noticed, Kahnman put all of his rebuilding eggs into the basket of free agents. He is not going to rebuild via the draft, but is clearing cap space to land a free agent. He thinks he can turn around the team with the 20 mil in cap space he has. Last years draft should have shown everyone what the Kahnman is up to. 5 picks and one, maybe two, players on the roster out of all that! Since he wasn’t around then, I guess he didn’t understand that those 5 picks were basically the fruit from the Garnett trade. I think Kahnman is a dufus and has no clue. He was out of the NBA for 7 years. He started as a reporter in Portland and all he ever was in Indiana was an asistant to carry Donnie Walsh coffee. This team may turn things around in 3-4 years, IF there still is a team. And not with Kahnman in charge…
Fire Kahn, Fire Kahn, Fire Kahhhhhhhhhhhnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Last years draft was fairly horrible. Moving one of those picks for a pick in next years draft was a smart move. I disagree that he won’t build through the draft. He has stated many times how important the draft process is and how important it is not to miss with high draft picks.
The Wolves have the possibility of having 3 picks first round picks in next years draft as well.
It’s hard to say who could be possible difference makers. There could be some freshman that step up like Favors or you could get guys that take a huge leap in their development in the offseason like Turner or Monroe.
the most current mock on nbadraft.net has us picking that lithuanian. guy looks great but so thin he’l get pounded if he has to go in side. not sure his game will translate to the NBA.
Kahnman says he will build through the draft, but instead of taking his word for it, look at the trades he made. Almost all of his moves have been to clear cap space. That tells me that he will be going the FA route. He has said as much. There’s nothing wrong with that way, except that he is crazy thinking that any top FA is going to come and play here. Also, with three picks in the draft and with this years draft being no better than last years, what makes anyone think he will do better than the FIVE picks he had last year?!
Obviously everyone is upset because the Wolves really stunk it up in Golden State, and have looked terrible the last three games. But last year’s team at this time was just as bad.
I will never forget the most horrible game I have ever witnessed against the Clippers last season–the game that finally got Whitman fired. It was worse from start to finish than last night’s game at Golden State.
This year the team is no better, but no worse, and is younger, more athletic, with more upside for the future, and with loads more cap space in the coming off-season.
So how, exactly, has Kahn already failed? He has cleaned out the long-term burdensome contracts for players that were not going to be part of the rebuilding process, has put together 3 or 4 players that may stick for the long term, and has positioned the team to get some more good talent in the next 10 months through the draft and free agency.
Any way you look at it, the Wolves are in better shape than we were at this time last year.
I’m starting to lean towards Wall over Turner even after Turner’s good game. I’ve been reading a lot about Wall and they think he is even more explosive with and without the ball than Rose. Wall is 6′4 and looks super athletic in the limited highlights. If he proves he can score, a Wall and Flynn backcourt could be nice, but Turner would still be a great 2nd option if Wall is taken first.
I have to now laugh (HAHAHA) at the bone heads who would have preferred Flynn and Rubio over Evans (even if he had been available) in the draft.
Com’on, all you fools fess up!
Evans and Flynn was who I wanted with our picks over everybody except Griffin.
I wouldn’t have touched Rubio or Thabeet, they both might turn out to be great but I would have passed on both.
3 things here.
1. So far I not so upset with Kahn, we still have picks and we will have cap room. In the NBA rebuilding takes 1-2 years not 3 or more. One Star FA and one Draft pick can do it.
2. I am upset with Rambis for 2 reasons, first he obviously isn’t communicating anything on defense. This guys are make foolish mistakes, being out of position, switching to the wrong man. (Pech is particularly good at that). Second the offense blows, they run a couple of triangle sets and they don’t work. So then they go one on one. When your 7 footer is getting handled by a 6′3″ guy you are not running the offense right. Also if you are getting dismantled playing “your way” you need to make some in game changes. No that is not a teachable moment that is a good way to get a team to quit on you. If that’s what he was going for he was successful.
3. Yes, Al is not right yet, but this is a matchup league, a league of stars, and Al causes more mismatches than anyone on our team. So unless we get Kobe, King James or DWade, you need to feed Al.
Id rather have Flynn or Rubio than Evans.
It is easy to get discouraged when losses pile up for this team, but what did we expect? And its particularly disappointing to loose like the team did last game. But the long-term goal is rebuilding and Kahn/Rambis have only so much to work with this year. I agree w/ those who say one outstanding player can make a difference, whether FA or draft. Then we will all bask in positive outlooks. The question is, do we play the young and inexperienced in the short-term for future development? The other question is, will possible FA’s want to come here w/ all these losses when not being sure of the long-term possibilities? Kahn has done all he can ay this point, and will have to be a bit of a magician and snake oil salesman in the future, but the future could be bright w/ the draft if done right and one very good FA. All is not lost so give it time even though painful.
McFly — Why don’t you go back and find out who was advocating that instead of making a strawman argument? I sure don’t remember a large number of folks advocating Flynn ahead of Evans. I had those three guys in this order: Rubio, Evans, Flynn.
The Wolves were never going to be huge players in the FA market. The cap space will facilitate trades and signings of mid-range FAs.
Evans is playing great after being moved to SG, lastnight he almost got a 3x double….his defense is also outstanding, acording to whats been written…Evans seems so big, although our own SG Ellington is infact taller, but about 15 pounds lighter.
If we didn’t come out with a point guard out of that draft it would have been completely stupid.
And Evans isn’t a PG. I’m happy with our selections.
Evans also shot 5 for 16 last night. That’s my problem with Evans as a long-term piece — he’s just not a good shooter. It would have been easy to get excited about him if we had drafted him, but my hope is that we get a better shooting SG prospect in the next draft or through FA.
Who cares about Evans ?! Woooooooooooooooooooooooooves !
I think the Wolves chances of acquiring an ‘game changing’ player are better if Kahn uses the cap space in a trade. If the Wolves are under the cap, which they certainly will be, then they can take in more salary than they send out in a trade, up to the cap. Once the remaining expiring contracts are off the books, Kahn should be looking at every player in the NBA that fits the bill and see which GM is interested in cap space vs his current talent. There must be a player who’s worth it to the Wolves that isn’t happy with his current situation and plays for a GM who’s looking to make some changes. I just can’t put my finger on it.
I see where NBG Kahn or as many are calling him Con said the effort on Monday night was unacceptable. What about the 2 games before that debacle vs Warriors? 3 out of 8 games this early season have been flat out no effort and team work on defense. That is on Rambis and staff. Last year was same thing with Wittman losing close games early then players tuning him out. The lack of effort stayed until coaching change took place. Will history repeat itself?
No, Rambis will be there at the end of the year.
Sean, I don’t have to. You can see the fools resurface. Evans will be ROY for this season….fools 4-ever…smh
Get it through the draft and try to get Melo in 11′ !!!!
As in Swan Dizzy…it’s like worms resurfacing after a hard rain.
I watched this game for a while, and noticed that the 5 on the floor at the end of the 1st qtr and beginning of the second was as follows: Jawai, Wilkins, Pavlovic, Cardinal, and Sessions.
I’m surprised we didn’t lose by 70…
Mad Dan…how disingenuous of you! Evans shot 5 for 16 but was 10 for 10 from the line = 20 points and dished 8 assists.
Now, for the uninformed, let’s review:
1. Wolves had 3 picks in first round
2. Could have taken a PG and Evans (had he been available)
3. This would have included Flynn or the Spanish evader
But, the fools now say they are happy fools.
Marty - We needed a point guard more than a shooting guard and really, since Evans wasn’t available its a moot point. Everything about him is irrelevant.
Who cares if he wins ROY ? Thats something Kings fans should be getting excited about. Not people who are fans (or followers) of the Wolves.
“(had he been available)”
Yeah, and if I was in a room with Jessica Biel I could take her home.
Useless post.
For those that saw the behind the scenes from the draft know that the Wolves wanted Evans and would have taken him had he been available. How can you blame Kahn for not getting Evans when he wasn’t even available? Talk about making yourself look like a complete fool. Congratulations Marty you are a complete idiot that I will never respond to again.
Swan Dizzy, you fools made your stupid comments before the draft, right? Morons.
Jessica Beil would laugh at your lack of ..ahem..stature
Jama, your dumb too. I’m calling out you morons who didn’t want Evans before the draft occurred.
Go crawl back in your hole.
So, what did we end up with…a Spanish evader on a lay-away plan.
Worse than McHale!!!
On your three points, Marty:
1. Wrong. We had 4 picks in the first round. Not important for your overall point, but if you’re going to call other people uninformed, you should try to be correct yourself.
2 and 3. Of course we could have. Who are these people who said we should have taken Rubio AND Flynn over Evans? I didn’t. I have my doubts about Evans, but I would have taken him over Flynn for sure. It’s a tougher call for me vs. Rubio.
And yes, Evans has done a good job getting to the line and converting, but his shooting percentage on the season is under 40%, which doesn’t seem to be a fluke since it matches with his reputation coming into the NBA.
My fear of Evans is that he would have brought back some of the problems we had with Foye. Sure, he’ll probably be a better player than Foye, but he’s similar in that he’s not ideally suited to either PG or SG.
Swan Dizzy - who cares if Brendan Roy is ROY, that’s something Blazers should be getting excited about….right?
Marty - Do you even know what you’re talking about ?
I said I wanted Evans or Curry and Harden before the draft.
My post at 8:30 was from 8:30…not before the draft. I said I’m happy with what we got out of the draft.
Jessica Biel would laugh at me ? Really ? Weird, I guess I shouldn’t have brought that up at all because its a completely ridiculous topic (hint hint bozo).
Marty - Yes. The Blazers should be excited about Brandon Roy…but if we go by your rationale they should calling for the head of Pritchard for not picking Durant….especially when he was available…whereas Evans was not.
Swan Dizzy:
Funny, no rebuttal to the Spanish evader (aka lost draft choice) or wasted draft choice.
Mad Dan:
Evans, at 6′6″ compared with Foye? Get a clue, he plays mad D too.
McFly is busy arguing with people who don’t exist. This board (including myself) was very high on Evans before the draft. But he wasn’t available when the Wolves picked.
One can certainly argue that the Wolves made the wrong selections with the players that were available, just as one can argue that one can argue that the Wolves made the right selections. It’s a bit too soon to determine who was right on that point.
(Incidentally, over on Canis Hoopus before the season began, I picked Tyreke Evans to win ROY)
Marty - Whats the question on Rubio ?
No it’s not a wasted pick at all. Stock piling future assets is a good thing…stuff that Presti, Pritchard and Buford do.
If only Marty had access to some sort of time machine that he could use to help him remember what people said during the time of the draft…
By the way, Marty, I realize that Foye and Evans are different players. But neither has a true position, and I’m tired of dealing with that for now.
And the other difference is Foye is only good at one single thing and mediocre at everything else.
Boy do I feel stupid, I wanted Thabeet!
No Thabeet !
Mad Dan, I don’t need a time machine fool.
Man up! All you morons who didn’t want Evans before the draft. Where are you now?
Sportsjunkie, do you mean Thabeet from Broken Jaw?
Thabeet joins a long list who somehow eventually ends up playing for the Wolves. They are drawn to the team like moths to a flame.
Marty - Go back to the draft day posts and find the people you’re calling out. I just looked around for a few and didn’t find anyone saying the words “I don’t want Evans” because of b-ball skills and just one saying “I don’t want Evans” because his cousin or brother or something was involved in a drive by shooting.
Does anyone use the new NBA TV Companion when following games? What do you think of it?
So eight games into the season, Marty is asking anyone who didn’t want Evans over Flynn to beg for mercy based on the following statistics:
FG% = .389 (Flynn = .489)
3-pt % = .267 (Flynn = .316)
FT % = .768 (Flynn = .867)
PER = 15.91 (Flynn = 17.03)
You’ve really got an open-and-shut case there, Marty.
Mad Dan:
Let’s look at the stat that really matters. Does he make his club better?
Kings - 4 win / 4 losses
Wolves - 1 win / 7 losses
This shuts your case, no?
Marty - Not at all.
Thats Flynn playing with one hand tied behind his back vs. Evans allowed to do what he wants.
Mad Dan:
As improbable as your alleged case, this is not a Flynn v. Evans comparison.
Fact is, the Wolves had two (count em) two top ten draft choices. Sac didn’t take Rubio because they knew there was a high risk and they wanted to improve now.
The Wolves strategy is as ridiculous as an anorexic saying he doesn’t want to eat so he can become more competitive.
Flynn with “one hand behind his back” haha.
Jonny is not playing with any handicap that isn’t self imposed.
Evans “allowed to do what he wants” …what? Like win? hahaha
ESPN has Flynn over Evans in rookie rankings…NBA has Evans over Flynn…this is the same stuff over and over again. No one said anyone stinks except for me re: Thabeetoff.
So Thorpe is another “fool” for ranking Flynn ahead of Evans in his rookie rankings today?
Let’s recap your case:
1. No one actually wanted Flynn and Rubio over Evans + one of them at the time of the draft, so you are arguing with people who never existed.
2. You’re making judgments about whole careers after 8 games, so the entire argument is premature.
3. Even if someone HAD argued for Flynn over Evans AND we accept that the first 8 games of a rookie season are indicative of a player’s career, it’s STILL not clear that your fictional opponent has been proven wrong.
So you wanted Evans, or at least regret we didn’t get him. Fine. Just say that. You don’t always need an opponent to make a point, whatever that might be.
Again, this is not Flynn v. Evans….duh!
Fact is, the Wolves had two (count em) two top 10 draft choices. They decided to go with a Spanish evader lay-away plan…k
“Fact is, the Wolves had two (count em) two top ten draft choices. Sac didn’t take Rubio because they knew there was a high risk and they wanted to improve now.
The Wolves strategy is as ridiculous as an anorexic saying he doesn’t want to eat so he can become more competitive.”
WHAT?!??!! Evans was GONE when we picked, remember? If you’ve already given up on Rubio, you can praise Sacramento for picking Evans over him, but what does it have to do with Kahn? He wasn’t given the choice.
I agree with Marty. If you can play the coach, unless he’s an idiot, puts you position to succeed. Flynn must not have shown Rambis enough to give Kurt confidence to let him go. Evans has the FULL support of Westy out in Sac to operate at will. So unless Rambis is an idiot (possible) Flynn hasn’t shown him enough. Don’t give me he’s running the triangle as an excuse, he’s getting his brains bashed in and unless the Nets didn’t stab themselves in the gut with a 18 pt lead Rambis would be winless.
Marty - Yes Jonny is playing with a handicap that is imposed by Rambis…that of running a difficult offense before he is allowed to do what he does best.
Mad Dan:
I believe I’m doing remedial training for the mentally challenged. Pretty so, I’m gonna charge you.
1. The period I’m calling all fools out on is right after the Wolves predraft workout, when, despite Evans destroying Flynn and all other attending prospects, some of you didn’t want Evans. Now you are apparently embarrassed by your comments.
2. Judgments of “whole careers after 8 games” Okay, when in your judgment is the right time? After 30 games? 50 games? Three seasons? Six seasons? An entire career? And, isn’t it you who recently did the side-by-side comparison between Flynn and Evans…sheesh (morons who even contradict themselves)
3, For the third time (can you read), it was not me who made the initial comparsion between Flynn and Evans (or Foye for that matter). So, who is trumping up phony arguments? U
Oh what a shocker, Eeyore agrees with McFly. The Vinegar Gang is in full force. Long live the straw-man argument!
Mad Dan get it right Sac didn’t pick Rubio because they had Evans rated higher. Both Petrie and the nutty Maloof brothers said it that night.
Which one is it then Mad Dan Rambis idiot or Flynn not shown enough?
Logical - This isn’t a year for winning…its a year for teaching / learning and assessing.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Rambis’ confidence in Flynn.
This is what every single point guard would have to be doing if they were playing here. No matter who they drafted and kept…Rubio, Curry, Flynn, Lawson.
Once the leash if off Flynn I don’t think the rest of the league is going to like playing him much.
I have no idea what you’re talking about, Eeyore. I didn’t say anything about why Sacramento picked Evans. And your follow-up post about Rambis and Flynn doesn’t have enough verbs to be comprehensible, but based on my best guess it doesn’t have anything to do with my posts.
Illogic thinker — why do you think Sac passed on the Spanish evader? Because they wanted to build a winning franchise starting this season.
“logical thinker says:
November 11th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Which one is it then Mad Dan Rambis idiot or Flynn not shown enough?”
Neither. Its a teaching and learning phase.
Swan Dizzy, the only leash is between Jonny’s ears.
If Sacramento wanted to build a winning franchise now, Kevin Martin would have been traded months ago.
Marty, I have clearly underestimated you. It occurs to me that you have managed to start an argument about something no one ever said regarding something that could not have happened. Kudos.
From a Yahoo Article:
All those comparisons between Flynn and Jennings? Throw ‘em out, says Wolves coach Kurt Rambis. “It’s not fair,” Rambis told the Minneapolis Star Tribune. “[Jennings] has a lot more freedom than Jonny has. I’m asking Jonny to do a lot more things. He’s in a much more complicated offense. So in terms of his individual expression, I’ve held Jonny down. He’s not going to like to do it. But I think it’s going to make him a better point guard once he learns those lessons. Then, I’ll loosen the reins and let him do more of what he really wants to do.” I, for one, can’t wait to see a Flynn without any reins.
They also had Evans ahead of Flynn on their rookie rankings, this is going to be one of those check back in 3 years things, but again I liked Evans over everybody except Griffin, and was chanting on here like crazy
EVANS! EVANS! EVANS! before we drafted and then was depressed for a week after we didn’t get him with Flynn.
Mad Dan:
No, I called out to you losers out there who didn’t want to take Evans ahead of inferior prospects as was evidenced at the Wolves pre-draft sesson, where Evans dominated prospects like Jonny Flynn.
This was simply an attempt for those idiots to man up. Obviously they are now sheepishly cowering like the cowards they are.
But, as a byproduct, what has surfaced is very telling. Rubio, the Spanish evader on the lay-away plan does nothing to improve this languishing franchise and their 1-7 record…a huge opportunity lost.
You want to compare Flynn v. Evans but then recant the comparison saying its only after 8 games.
Curious, did anyone make the Foye v. Roy comparison early in the season?
C-Note, I distinctly remember you were also big on Flynn-Evans. Kudos
CNote - Those are the NBA.com rankins I referred to. Were they written by a yahoo guy ? Ugh.
Did anyone else notice that Flynn contradicts Rambis about the number of times the ball should be thrown down to Al Jefferson?
Rambis says the team shouldn’t rely on throwing the ball down to Jefferson; Jonny says you can’t throw the ball down enough.
Love describes Jonny as “petulant.” Does Jonny come with a head case?
Wow a compliment, don’t worry I won’t come to expect them, lol. Sacramento should have just taken Rubio and then we could have taken Evans and Flynn or Evans and trade down and get Jennings. I officially hate the Kings
I didn’t say I agree with them, I didn’t know someone had already talked about them, I missed that part above.
The Kings have Kevin Martin…so don’t worry…they have it bad enough.
Marty, Swan’s research has shifted the burden to you to search the archives for even one person who fits your definition of a “coward”.
And yes, I am capable of making the highly nuanced argument that a) the comparison is premature and b) even if we assume it isn’t premature, you don’t have a slam-dunk case. I’m sorry if that’s over your head.
But really, why are we talking about any of this? We couldn’t have had Evans. If Sacramento got a future all-star with their pick, good for them. We’ve got Rubio’s rights and Flynn on the court, and I’m fine with that.
Mad Dan - I only looked at pre-draft blogs…I didn’t look at the post draft blog Marty is referring to. But I am guessing he just got people to angrily say they didn’t want Evans because he busy whining about not winding up with him. Thats just a guess.
Who knows. Maybe he’s right. But those are probably people who don’t even visit the blog anymore !
How’s Rubio doing for Barcelona Mad Dan? Since you are excited about his rights or is this a learning and teaching year for him over seas also. I’m sure his Euro coach will be teaching him a lesson by not starting him and preparing him for the NBA is Barcelona’s main concern.
“highly nuanced” haha weenie words.
We got Flynn, the Spanish evader, and a 1-7 record. What could be wrong? ahahahaha
Logical - Rubio is doing fine for Barcelona.
And its perfectly ok for him to play over there.
Whats wrong with a 1-7 record for a team with zero expectations of winning ?
LT - and just think. the Spanish evader is incurring a learning and teaching year there and in a couple he will get a new learning and teaching year and, and, and,
Hey, at least you looked a little, Swan. Marty’s just asserting that these people exist, and I’m not inclined to accept his recollections on faith.
My recollection is that there was a lot of debate about Evans vs. Harden (highlighting the futility of all of this) before the workouts. Then Evans came in and looked great and people were much higher on him in general. In short, not a lot of Evans hating happened as far as I can remember. Yes, people like me have expressed concerns about his shooting and whether he can play effectively without the ball, but those are legitimate issues. Flynn and Rubio have warts, too.
Swan Dizzy - what’s wrong with a 1-7 record (which extrapolates to roughly 11 wins or the season) and 30 bitter clingers in attendance and any FA or traded for player thinking they have been dealt to Siberia?
Why? Nothing, nothing at all. Just ask the Wolves ownership.
Gotta go. The Mad Dan - Swan Dizzy mutual stroking is too much for me.
Class is now out of session.
Swan define “doing fine” for me please. Have you seen him play this year?
“Weenie words” is the best can do for a comeback, Marty? I’ll take that as your implicit acceptance of my superior intellect.
Marty - You should really learn to manage you expectations better.
1) Nothing wrong with 11 wins this year.
2) There have been more than 30 people at all the games I’ve been to this year and they don’t seem the least bit pessimistic.
3) Sessions being excited to come here makes the comment “any FA or traded for player thinking they have been dealt to Siberia” just completely stupid. Unless you want to change “any FA” to fit your unwitty post better.
On another note, I get to go to the game tonight with a Portland fan…I’m going to have fun mumbling to him…
“Why isn’t the coach playing Durant ? Did they get in a fight or somet…oops.”
Logical - Yeah, I’ve seen him play…get espn.360 if you have a decent computer at home…you can possibly watch some old games from earlier this year (I don’t know how long they keep games). But check it out and see for yourself.
Still needs to work on that jumper though.
From the most recent chat with Sheridan on ESPN:
Question:
Right now, through 3 games, Ricky Rubio is averaging 6.3 points, 6.3 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 1.7 steals in 23 minutes per game. Is it a good thing he didn’t come over this year?
Answer:
Euro stats aren’t always a good measure of a player’s worth because the game is played so differently over there (Exhibit A: Compare Brandon Jennings’ stats with Milwaukee and with Roma). I think it is a bad thing for the NBA that he didn’t come over because I think all the world’s best players should play in the world’s best league, and I’ve seen him play a lot, and he’s worth the price of admission. But I also think it’s a good thing for the ACB, and I look forward to seeing how be blends with the national team next summer in Turkey. Spain is clearly the No. 1 threat to Team USA once again.
I’ve only seen Rubio play once this year. A very bland nothing to get excited about outing vs Cibona. I’ll watch more and hopefully get a better impression of him. Not too high on him as of now. Mad Dan, can you enlighten us who don’t get the MASTER PLAN, what is Rambis teaching Flynn and when will he incorporate the pt guard in a staring role in triangle? Fisher is as close to a true pt guard as Phil has had (Kerr, Paxson, Hodges Shaw not pts at all) and he’s never averaged more than 4-5 assists a game. It’s a wing driving/jump shooting offense. Is Kurt going to change the triangle when he busts ole Flynn out and lets him go? Us ignorant folks just don’t get it.
Not real good with reading comprehension, are you Eeyore? I’ve expressed skepticism about the triangle and how Rambis is using his players in several previous posts. As much as I hate to say it, I’m actually with you on this one, at least to some degree.
Mad Dan, not to argue every point with you, although I enjoy that, the Jennings Rubio comparison is bogus. Jennings admitted he went there as a spoiled HS kid who had trouble adjusting to pro ball and a new culture. Rubio has been a pro for 3 years and is playing in his back yard. No comparison at all between the 2 and their Euro stats.
Talk to Sheridan. I didn’t make the comparison.
If I were in Vegas tonight I’d be making some money…wolves will lose by more than 7 1/2……
Sound great.
I am planning on taking a trip this december, but im not sure where yet.
Anny suggestions?
